How Faith Works

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Elnaam

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Originally posted by Andrew
cougan, the other thing you might want to think about is this:

you are not just believing that God has changed into a non-miracle God but you are also in a way 'calling' everyone here who gives a miraculous testimony a 'liar', unless that person can fulfill your criteria.

It is one thing to say you believe in cessationism but quite another to call someone a fake. If that same person told you the greatest miracle had happened to him -- rebirth -- wld you ask for proof? why not? If miracles dont happen today then neither does the miracle of rebirth.

you keep asking for proof b4 you'd believe, isnt that the same spirit doubting Thomas had? why not tell God you believe first (step out in faith), then you'll begin to see with open eyes/heart...for without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

ps: and who knows, God might have sent Robert E, those VCDs, SnuP's testimonies to testify to you yet you continue to look the other way. but I believe He's still patient with you :)
Yea and Amen Brother! :pray:
 
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cougan

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I am very happy for each of these people that belive they have and a miracle. In fact Im very excited for them that their experience probably caused them to server God even more. Even the bible tells us that if something is good it has came from God and that we are to give God the glory for all things in our life. I am by no means deaming these people liars. In fact most people are sure they experience this or that. But when you get right down to the niddy griddy you find out that it was not even close to being a bibical miracle like that in the 1st century. Surely you cant expect anyone to just beleive everything that they say just because they call it a miracle from God. There is abosolutly nothing wrong with wanting proof to back up these claims. None of those miracles on disk that were sent to me showed a visual miracle and they can not be confirmed. It funny how you never see the miracle happen it always after the fact. I WILL SAY IT LOUD AND CLEAR. JUST SHOW ME 1 VISABLE MIRACLE LIKE A WITHERED HAND BECOMING WHOLE OR SEVERED BODY PART BEING PUT BACK ON SOMETHING VISIABLE AND I WILL NOT DENY IT AND WILL START PREACHING MIRACLES THAT SAME HOUR. If these miracles are happeing all the time then it should not be hard to catch something like this on tape. But has it ever been done? No it has not. A bibical miracle happend immediately and did not take days or weeks to happen. You can search high you can search low but you cannot and will not find a miracle healing in the NT that took longer than 1 hour. In fact the bible refers to it in that same hour which could mean 1min or 59min but not longer. Being born again has nothing to do with wheather or not there are still 1st century mircles and signs today. The bible is complete and is there for us study and to grow and does not require miracles or signs today to back it up or cause it to be understood.
 
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Elnaam

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Originally posted by cougan
I am very happy for each of these people that belive they have and a miracle. In fact Im very excited for them that their experience probably caused them to server God even more. Even the bible tells us that if something is good it has came from God and that we are to give God the glory for all things in our life. I am by no means deaming these people liars. In fact most people are sure they experience this or that. But when you get right down to the niddy griddy you find out that it was not even close to being a bibical miracle like that in the 1st century. Surely you cant expect anyone to just beleive everything that they say just because they call it a miracle from God. There is abosolutly nothing wrong with wanting proof to back up these claims. None of those miracles on disk that were sent to me showed a visual miracle and they can not be confirmed. It funny how you never see the miracle happen it always after the fact. I WILL SAY IT LOUD AND CLEAR. JUST SHOW ME 1 VISABLE MIRACLE LIKE A WITHERED HAND BECOMING WHOLE OR SEVERED BODY PART BEING PUT BACK ON SOMETHING VISIABLE AND I WILL NOT DENY IT AND WILL START PREACHING MIRACLES THAT SAME HOUR. If these miracles are happeing all the time then it should not be hard to catch something like this on tape. But has it ever been done? No it has not. A bibical miracle happend immediately and did not take days or weeks to happen. You can search high you can search low but you cannot and will not find a miracle healing in the NT that took longer than 1 hour. In fact the bible refers to it in that same hour which could mean 1min or 59min but not longer. Being born again has nothing to do with wheather or not there are still 1st century mircles and signs today. The bible is complete and is there for us study and to grow and does not require miracles or signs today to back it up or cause it to be understood.
Why you will not see a miracle--UNBELIEF! The reason that some day you may, is God's Grace!
 
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Andrew

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Miracles are all around my friend. eg The sunrise. we might take it for granted today, attributing it to science, astronomy etc, but it was a miracle when God put it up there, and it still is. also, your heart, which keeps on pumping. no it aint medical science that put it there and keeps it pumping. It was a miracle when God made man's heart organ, and it still is, we just forgot about it. :)
 
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Andrew

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Miracles are all around my friend. eg The sunrise. we might take it for granted today, attributing it to science, astronomy etc, but it was a miracle when God put it up there, and it still is. also, your heart, which keeps on pumping. no it aint medical science that put it there and keeps it pumping. It was a miracle when God made man's heart organ, and it still is, we just forgot about it. :)
 
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cougan

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All these are miracles that came from the begging its not a new miracle. The Sun is not being recreated everyday nor is the human race being recreated from the dust of the earth every day. We can look at the results of these miracles from the begining and know that there is a God. Elannm do you really belive that a person cant see a miracle for unbelief? I dare you to answer this question yes. Because I will show other wise by the word of God and its not a maybe its either yes or no.
 
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Elnaam

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Originally posted by cougan
All these are miracles that came from the begging its not a new miracle. The Sun is not being recreated everyday nor is the human race being recreated from the dust of the earth every day. We can look at the results of these miracles from the begining and know that there is a God. Elannm do you really belive that a person cant see a miracle for unbelief? I dare you to answer this question yes. Because I will show other wise by the word of God and its not a maybe its either yes or no.
My Dear Cougan here are the Scriptures you desire:
Hebrews 6:11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Matthew 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by Andrew
cougan,
in your heart of hearts, do you wish miracles still existed. eg do you wish God still heals supernaturally? :)

 :clap: Ahh yes Andrew. I think it would be awesome if they were here today. I must of been such a wonderful experience to be miracelous filled with the HS. Seeing such wonders first hand and seeing mamed people being healed. Who would'nt wish such a thing. :D
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by Elnaam

My Dear Cougan here are the Scriptures you desire:
Hebrews 6:11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Matthew 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Heb 6:11 has nothing to do with wheather or not you can see or experience healings. It means exactly what it says that you can not be pleasing to god with out faith. You must have faith that he is god and that he is a rewareder of those who seek him.

You are going to have a difficult time explaining John 9. Here you have a blind man that was healed by Jesus but the man had no idea who Jesus was. So he was healed before he had faith. He had no idea he was the son of God until later after being questioned by the Pharisees how it was he came to see. How much faith did the dead guy have that was being carried out of the city that Jesus raised? Now it would be good for you to read this article.

 It should be clear that the miracles performed by Jesus were not dependent on the faith of the recipient.  For example, the "dumb man possessed with a devil" in Matt. 9:32-33 was healed by Jesus with no indication of faith on the part of the man who was healed.  The man with the "withered hand" in Matt. 12:10-14 was healed without evidence of his faith in Jesus.  There is a also a general statement in Matt. 14:14 and Matt. 19:1-2 regarding multitudes who were healed without any indication that the Lord required them to have faith before they could be healed. These examples (and there are others which could be cited) show clearly that the healing done by Jesus in His earthly ministry was not dependent on the recipient's faith.  The "lack of faith" on the part of the sick is simply something that modern-day deceivers attempt to hide behind because they cannot perform the miracles that they claim.  Such statements show the falsity of their teaching and the sham of their pretended miracles.

    Sometimes in miracles of healing Jesus referred to the faith of the one who was healed.  Note first the woman "which was diseased with an issue of blood" (Matt. 9:20).  On that occasion "Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole.  And the woman was made whole from that hour" (Matt. 9:22).  "Her faith had brought her to Jesus ....  Her faith was not the source of her healing, but it had brought her into touch with Jesus who had the power to heal."<6> McGarvey further observed the following on Jesus' remark about her faith:

    "The way in which her faith had made her whole is very apparent, and it illustrates the manner in which faith saves us from sin.  It caused her to force her way through the crowd until she could touch the garment of Him from whom the deliverance was to come.  Had she stopped short of this, her faith would not have made her whole.  In like manner faith saves the sinner, not by the mere fact that he believes, but by that which it leads him to do.  It brings him through the pangs of sorrow, and the deep resolve of repentance, to the public confession of Jesus and baptism into His name, and thus, by bringing him in the appointed way to Jesus who saves, it saves him."<7>

    Again, the two blind men were healed by Jesus when "...touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you" (Matt. 9:29). Their faith was active and had caused them to go to the house where Jesus was, to recognize Him as the Messiah, the "Son of David," and to confess Him as "Lord" (Matt. 9:27-28).  Though these men had not seen the miracles that Jesus had done, they believed in Him and believed that He was able to heal them.  Jesus no doubt called attention to the faith of these men in order that those observing the miracle would also come to believe.  One clear purpose of all the miracles that Jesus performed was to cause belief in those who saw them.  John wrote of this purpose, "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20:30-31).

    "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief" (Matt. 13:58).  Mark's parallel record of this occasion points out that Jesus did lay hands on "a few sick folk, and healed them" (Mark 6:5).  "The unbelief of the people limited the mighty works which Jesus otherwise would have done."<8>  How sad for them.  Only a few were healed when many could have been had it not been for their unbelief.  Their hearts were so hardened against Jesus that even seeing the miracles that Jesus could have done before them would not have persuaded them that He was the Messiah. "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" (Heb. 3:12).  Unbelief always results in loss.

 
 
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Andrew

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quote:"Ahh yes Andrew. I think it would be awesome if they were here today. I must of been such a wonderful experience to be miracelous filled with the HS. Seeing such wonders first hand and seeing mamed people being healed. Who would'nt wish such a thing."

Cougan,

And I have absolutely no doubt you mean what you say above. But do you know what...that's your spirit telling you the truth -- that God still heals and performs miracles today. Your heart cries out for it, ie the Holy Spirit in you is telling you that's what it ought to be like today.

lemme give you another example which my pastor used. a man is in a wheelchair. he somehow believes God put him there and that he is learning an important 'lesson' from God and so God does not want to heal him. He believes scripture teaches this too and has heard much preaching that supports what he believes.

But in his heart [spirit] he longs to walk again. He cries silently when he sees other people running and jumping. So he still sees the therapist, and reads medical journals to see if there are any breakthroughs -- becos in his heart he still wants to get well, while on the outside, he may say otherwise.

My Point: his heart is actually his spirit crying out the truth that he ought to be healed, and that God wants him well. Got put that truth in his heart in his spirit. That's the truth, it lies in there! So, cougan in your heart lies God's truth concerning this topic we're discussing. And its up to you which truth you want to follow. Follow your heart.

:)
 
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Elnaam

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Coughen here are some more examples, I recieve today from a missionary:Dear friends and prayer warriors

God is doing wonderful things in India.

Just yesterday I got a letter from a teen in Visak I
prayed for and he is having wonderful experiences with
Jesus, getting inspiration for songs, and hearing from
the Lord and the Lord is teaching him and directing his
path, and has told him HE will give him 10 million
souls ! He told him to fast 10 days and HE would give
him more dreams and speak more so he didâ?¦..His letter is
at the end of this update. Pray for Jeremiah !
Jeremiahâ??s auntie and uncle run the orphanage in Visak
with 150 children , many of whom are handicapped with
polio or birth defectsâ?¦and God came so powerfully on the
children that were saved thereâ?¦.they went down in the
spirit and were being empowered in intercession in a
mighty way.

I also got a letter from Bangalore, and the village
where we did an impromptu outreach,is now requesting
weekly prayer meetings, as many got healed and
experienced the touch of Jesus . So they have
established Wednesday meetings. Bettyâ??s mother was
healed of her eye problem also and can now see clearly.
And the little boy in that village who was healed of a
deaf and dumb spiritâ?¦is speaking and his mother has come
to the Lord, and is attending church servicesâ?¦so the
church has grown.

The meetings in Indore have been wonderful and God
ministers so powerfully His presence with Ashish leading
worship. He is a revivalist and moves in miracles
himself, so Godâ??s presence has been SO WONDERFUL in the
meetings and many have been healed and touched
powerfully for Christâ?¦

One little girl (11yrs) Chinchalâ?¦who was accidentally
dropped by her mom as an infant, is retarded and had
bruxism, dumb spirit, and dark countenance. Mother was
Hindu, but now has come to the Lordâ?¦now this girl is
smiling, dancing in worshipâ?¦her countenance is totally
changed and she is able now to move her tongue out of
the mouth which she could not beforeâ?¦.at every meeting
they are coming, and bringing more of their friends for
prayer. Her auntie who came out of Hinduism, receives
visions of Jesus, and has been so greatly touched by the
Spirit in meetings, the other night in the Anglican
church she was touched greatly in her emotions, her
husband abandoned her and her two children so she is
aloneâ?¦and she was crying and getting some love of the
Lord.

Today 8-9 people showed up at the house for prayer, but
I was up late last night till 2 am, so up late in the
morningâ?¦.also being harassed, with the enemy trying to
bring the asthma and allergies back on meâ?¦at night
especiallyâ?¦so have to pray and fight thenâ?¦last night I
was wheezing so bad I used the inhaler onceâ?¦just to
clear my lungs.
But I need more prayer for this fight. Also the loose
stools returned after stopping antibiotics againâ?¦so
started back on themâ?¦please pray for that too !

One of the people brought today was a woman who had a
heart conditionâ?¦holes in the walls of her heartâ?¦.as I
began to pray I saw the Lord sewing up the holes and
then a picture of the tensile strength of the muscle
walls being reinforced by the Lordâ?¦.and while praying
for her she saw Jesus !

The lady who brought her has been healed when we prayed
for her stomach problemsâ?¦
She had had cancer surgery and doctors told her there
were still cancer cells in the bloodâ?¦but you should have
seen her face todayâ?¦it was glowing and all she wants is
more of Him so she can serve the LORD !

Another family who were brought by Chinchalâ??s great
auntie came who had a daughter with weakness in all her
muscles, like someone with cerebellar damage. Some
joints stiff and yet muscles weak and limpâ?¦Apparently
she had a seizure the second day of life and has been
this way since. I prayed for her and then showed the
parents how to do active range of motion exercises with
her to strengthen her muscles. Then I prayed for the
father who has problems with anxiety and worry, and is
educated , but hasnâ??t been able to get a good job !
They said they believe in Jesus, but have been
practicing Hindus, so they said they will come back
tonight for service to get more prayer.

God touched a young man who has been healed of a dumb
spirit and can now speakâ?¦he wanted healing for his
vision so he doesnâ??t have to wear glasses as the other
kids have mocked him due to his former speech
problemâ?¦.and God healed him todayâ?¦.he then read a
songbook with small print without any strain.

Another youth came and is Hinduâ?¦and after I said that
there is no peace without Jesus, because he said he is
frustrated with lifeâ?¦.He said â?? all gods are
oneâ??â?¦.something he has learned through his parents of
courseâ?¦.I said if that is true, then you wouldnâ??t need
prayer from me, the other gods who are supposedly ONEâ?¦
would have answered you !
Then I prayed for his vision and for God to reveal
Himselfâ?¦.and he fell back under the power of the
spiritâ?¦.but had a spirit of divination on himâ?¦as he saw
me in a vision on a chairâ?¦.usually they will see JESUS.
There is a lot of elder worship hereâ?¦.so I encouraged
him to returnâ?¦..He sat there while I prayed for the lady
who did see Jesus and got healed of her heart problem
thoughâ?¦.so it made an impression.

We have a meeting tonight here, and then Sunday
morning. One thing you need a lot of in India is
PATIENCE. You cannot be in a hurry. Nothing goes at
the speed things do in the U.S.

I will be leaving to Russia, God willing â?¦.taking train
to Delhi on 16th. 15th of the month is their
Independence Day and terrorists have threatened to cause
explosions in Delhi so it isnâ??t a safe time to go
there. So will leave for there on 16thâ?¦itâ??s a 12 hour
train rideâ?¦then will pick up visa at Russian embassy on
17th and leave that night for
Moscowâ?¦actually early am on 18thâ?¦..then will fly to
Khabarovsk in FAR EAST on the 21st of Augustâ?¦..will be
there till 27th or 28th, then take train to Ussurijsk
and fly home to U.S. on Sept. 3rdâ?¦.arriving Sept.3rdâ?¦
California time. Please pray God will move powerfully
in Russiaâ?¦and for safety there also and flight
arrangements.

Love and hugs to you allâ?¦..missing homeâ?¦

Priscilla
 
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ROGER459

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DOES, this testimony of Supposed Healing = correspond with THAT, as stated in the Scripures? ? ?

(Acts 3:6-to-9)
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
(Act 3:7) And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
(Act 3:8) And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
(Act 3:9) And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

JESUS GAVE US WARNING, about such things! About those THAT WOULD REQUIRE A SIGN!


(Matthew 12:39-40)
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
(Mat 12:40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

MOST, want to believe in the Supernatural Healing of someon's testimony, AND YET, there is AN UNDERLYING Resentment TOWARD THE AFRICAN AMERICAN ASSAILANT!

Healing was spoken about, and YET THERE IS NO TESTIMONY = ABOUT FORGIVNESS! There is NO TESTIMONY ABOUT SALVATION!

(Matthew 7:21-22-23) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

DIDN'T ANYONE Notice the person that KNEW THIS PERSON, from another SITE?

DOES he go from site to site, and Post His STORY?

NEVER ONCE, in the testimony did I hear anything about = Forgivness of Sins, and Salvation, and What God has showed him from the WORD? ? ?

I DO NOT WANT TO CALL ANYONE AN LIAR! Yet there appear to be Too Many Inconsistencies, and too much missing? ? ?

(Proverbs 14:15) The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

DID YOU EVER watch Christian Television? Those SUPPOSED healing Services are not Real! They want you to send in your MONEY!

Thanks, Roger459




 
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sk8Joyful

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:clap:

I was healed from a wheelchair by faith!

Nothing in the Kingdom of God comes without faith, as a matter of fact you were born-again through faith. To knock it is to knock your own salvation. I know that things sound pretty incredible when it comes to some of the claims of the faith people, but isn't that the kind of God we're dealing with?

People who say "Name it and Claim it" are already on the wrong track. They have been mis-informed or have not really done their homework on the subject. Most listen to what others say and don't take up the investigation for themselves. This is not being responsible. Plan and simple it's a form of being slothful.

Naturally I cannot explain the basics of faith in this type of forum, the best I can do is to provoke your thinking. God's Word works and is true whether we believe it or not. The fact that a sinner doesn't come to God does not negate the FACT that Jesus saves. He simply has not taken part in that provision provided by Jesus. For him to say, "Jesus doesn't save" simply because he didn't get saved, is not only untrue, it's not responsible.

God is good, not bad. It is good to be healed. It amazes me how people could fight against such GOOD news. Healing is a good thing. Forget what people do with it, or if some prosper from it, HEALING itself is good. The GOOD NEWS (Gospel) is that healing is PROVIDED for every believer; if you do not partake of it, it does not negate its validity. It simply means that you have not taken part in it.

ALL Christians have ENOUGH faith. There is no such thing as GETTING more faith. You got all the faith you are ever going to get when you got born-again. Just like you got all the muscles that you're ever going to get when you were born as a baby. You don't get more, you simply develop more. But if you don't do what it takes to develop your muscles (faith) they will not get strong. Yes I was raised from a wheelchair, yes I beat cancer...but not because I have more faith than anyone, it's just that I developed my "healing muscle" that's all. Some people develop their "prosperity" muscle so they prosper (Jesus was not broke! Try taking care of 12 disciples and their families for three years with no one working...got that much cash? To take it a step further, none of them worked after meeting Jesus. Remember Paul came along after Jesus rose).

What's right or wrong? Not my opinion...who cares? It doesn't change God's Word one iota. Therfore I have to go to the Word and find out what it says about a subject, and like it or lump it, that's what it is. Did you know that there are more scriptures on prosperity in the Bible than there are on Salvation? Sounds like God's trying to say something. Study the Word for yourself. If you don't agree with a brother, that's fine, pray and go on. Christians fighting is...not Christian...
AMEN, Brother.
Try telling this to the folks in the CF-Ethics & Morality forum here, under the current topic of "Euthanasia". Believe it, or not - we have 'Christians' here, clamoring for the "Right-to-die".

Whatever happened, to the FAITH that Jesus invited us to exersize, in HIS *word*.

Keep up! spreading :thumbsup: Jesus' GOOD*NEWS, Brother!

Annie :wave:
 
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