False. They are Scripture, as I very clearly said.
So if Romans 1:1 is Scripture, then it is inspired by God.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Timothy 3:16).
Logic dictates that if Paul's words like in Romans 1:1 is Scripture, and we know that this is inspired by God because 2 Timothy 3:16 says ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, then we must conclude it is the Word of God. Yet, you said, I quote:
“You're confusing the words of Scripture with the word of God. The ink and paper words that biblical authors wrote are very much theirs, it's that through these by the power and work of the Holy Spirit is God's word;” Quote by: ViaCrucis.
So your statement here appears to be contradictory to me. On one hand you said I am confusing Scripture as the Word of God, and yet on other hand you appear to say that this is so. Not sure what you are driving at by this above statement. If you can explain a little better in what you are talking about in this above quote you made (It would be helpful).
You said:
My point is that Paul didn't just have an innate knowledge that what he wrote would be Scripture. That was something that happened after--by the consensus and agreement of the Church.
I already pointed out to you about how Peter said of Paul's writings that they were Scripture in 2 Peter 3:15-16. So if Peter said this of Paul's writings, then chances are is that Paul knew his writings were Scripture by what Peter said of them.
You said:
I said Paul's letters are Scripture. So no, I never said they weren't. I said the opposite of what you are telling me I said.
I view the Word of God as Scripture, and so when you said that Romans 1:1 was not the Word of God, I took that to mean that you were saying that this is not Scripture.
You said:
"the corrective word of the Law" is what I said. By which I mean God's commandments. That includes the commandments God gave exclusively to the Jews under the covenant established with them on Mt. Sinai.
There is Law--what God commands.
There is Gospel--what God promises and gives.
That's why I said that Christ Himself speaks His loving word of grace and salvation by His Gospel, and also gives us the corrective word of the Law; in Scripture we encounter both Law and Gospel No. It means that the word "Law" is everything God has commanded. Not just the commandments given uniquely to the Jews as part of their covenant with God, nor just the commandments which are given in the New Testament. It means Law is everything God commands.
No, the whole of the Old Law is no more. It's no longer applicable today.
When looking at the Old Law one can categorize the Old Testament Mosaic Law (
the 613 Laws of Moses) into a threefold division:
- Moral Laws (Any Law pertaining to doing good as a part of nature).
- Ceremonial Laws (Laws pertaining to ceremonies or rituals).
- Civil Laws (Laws dealing with civil matters; Which includes Laws on carrying out justice).
Even before the written Law of Moses: We can see that there were Moral Laws (
like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.), and Ceremonial Laws (
like: animal sacrifices).
God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (
after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.
In the New Covenant (
or New Testament) these Moral Laws (
like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still are in effect (
i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial Laws or commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, dietary etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?
Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:
"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).
”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).
20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).
“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).
"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).
9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).
16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).
”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).
27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).
50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).
8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).
7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).
The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).
Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).
The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).
Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).
So it appears things have changed.
This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).
In conclusion:
You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
You said:
We cannot be justified by the Law period. Not just the commandments given through Moses to the Jews, but all that God commands. One cannot be righteous or made just by obedience to commandments. Only the Gospel can justify, and it does so because here is the grace of God, by which we have received the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, by grace alone, through faith. And therefore we are justified by grace alone through faith. Not by works.
Most Christians hold to the view that we need to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. Yet, to even believe in Jesus is a commandment or Law according 1 John 3:23.
“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23).
There is also the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, too.
“For
the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).
In fact, keeping the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the Old Law of sin and death (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses given to Israel). For it was called the Law of sin and death because one could be stoned by God's people for disobeying the Law of Moses. This is not the case under the New Covenant.
Anyways, Romans 8:2 is a law that deals with salvation. For the definition of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is defined for us in Romans 8:1. For there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (sin), but who walk after the Spirit. This is a part of our salvation because there is no condemnation for us if we are abiding in this law. But if we do not obey this law, there is death. For Romans 8:13 says if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, we shall live.
You said:
So caring about scholarship today is bad, because it's being a scribe and Jesus was critical of religious hypocrites and religious elitism of the time. But in the 17th century, it was fine. The translators of the KJV and their scholarship is fine, presumably because reasons?
-CryptoLutheran
The KJB was a result of God preserving His Words for us today. There are many evidences showing the KJB to be divine in origin. No other Bible today compares to it. There is one perfect Word of God and there is not many words of God (or many Bibles). There can be only one, just as there is one God (i.e. Who is Triune). This does not mean I don't use Modern Translations by any means, but this simply means I have a final word of authority that is in most parts clear to understand. I don't have to decipher God's Word as if it was some kind of riddle that needs to be unraveled. I just read it, and believe it. The Bible is difficult enough as it is to read in English and even then folks misunderstand what it is saying. Not sure why one must make it more complicated by looking to the original languages. Sure, original language studies can be helpful sometimes, but it should not conflict with the English written in our Bible.
