How does the unregenerate person obey?

Greg J.

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A person that desires, or is willing, to find God, will be yielded to him in some measure. One doesn't need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to do what he thinks is according to God's will. Christians experience the same thing when they try to obey a command even though it is not in their heart to obey. It is the "imitation of Christ," which one can think of as "training wheels." We need to obey even before we do so from our hearts. God responds to this.
 
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bling

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We read these words from Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

How does an unsaved person obey without the Holy Spirit?

The nonbeliever is not doing anything in “obedience” to God’s commands, but is responding selfishly to satisfy a need they have, relieving them of a huge burden, so the Holy Spirit is not compelling them to be selfish, but the Holy Spirit does help all humans in developing the burden.

It is very much like the prodigal son: 1. Your own choices spiral you down into the pigsty of life, 2. This condition will bring you to your senses, 3. You can choose to be macho and pay the piper/accept the punishment you fully deserve or selfishly choose to have just possibly some kind of life (a life you fully do not deserve), by just humbly turning to the Creator for pure charity
 
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EmSw

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A person that desires, or is willing, to find God, will be yielded to him in some measure. One doesn't need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to do what he thinks is according to God's will. Christians experience the same thing when they try to obey a command even though it is not in their heart to obey. It is the "imitation of Christ," which one can think of as "training wheels." We need to obey even before we do so from our hearts. God responds to this.

How about that? Someone who will answer with the truth.

However, I would also like to hear how Calvinists respond to this. How can a man obey God without regeneration?
 
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EmSw

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The nonbeliever is not doing anything in “obedience” to God’s commands, but is responding selfishly to satisfy a need they have, relieving them of a huge burden, so the Holy Spirit is not compelling them to be selfish, but the Holy Spirit does help all humans in developing the burden.

It is very much like the prodigal son: 1. Your own choices spiral you down into the pigsty of life, 2. This condition will bring you to your senses, 3. You can choose to be macho and pay the piper/accept the punishment you fully deserve or selfishly choose to have just possibly some kind of life (a life you fully do not deserve), by just humbly turning to the Creator for pure charity

So bling, if an unbeliever chooses not to lie, how are they satisfying a need they have? If an unbeliever chooses not to lie, is that not in obedience to God's command? Who are they obeying if they choose not to lie?
 
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Skala

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How about that? Someone who will answer with the truth.

However, I would also like to hear how Calvinists respond to this. How can a man obey God without regeneration?

The reason you are wondering this is because you have a misconception.
You are confusing and conflating two things. You think having the holy spirit is synonymous with being regenerated. While both things are true of New Testament believers, they is still two distinct things.

The proof that are you conflating the two things is because in your opening post, you said:
How does an unsaved person obey without the Holy Spirit?
And then in post #5, you said:
How can a man obey God without regeneration?

So, this proves that you think having the Holy Spirit and regeneration are one and the same thing.

Regeneration and having the holy Spirit are related, but two different things.

A man obeys because he has been regenerated.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is unique to New Testament believers. It is a gift from God, it is something that makes the new covenant different than the old covenant.

Jesus told his disciples that he would give them a gift, the indwelling holy spirit. Prior to the New Covenant, people were regenerated, but they didn't have the indwelling Spirit in the same way New Testament believers do. In the Old Testament, the Spirit would come and go from the saints, empowering them for service but not necessarily remaining with them. In the New Testament, Jesus revealed to His disciples the new role the Spirit of Truth would play in their lives: “He lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:17).

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.
How does an unsaved person obey without the Holy Spirit?

So, to answer your question, the way a person obeys is because of regeneration. That is how people have always obeyed, even in the Old Testament before the Indwelling Spirit was given to believers as a gift. A person then is sealed with the holy spirit because of their faith.

To reiterate, having the indwelling Spirit and being regenerate are not the same thing, though they are both true of Christians in our new covenant.
 
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EmSw

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The reason you are wondering this is because you have a misconception.
You are confusing and conflating two things. You think having the holy spirit is synonymous with being regenerated. While both things are true of New Testament believers, they is still two distinct things.

The proof that are you conflating the two things is because in your opening post, you said:

And then in post #5, you said:


So, this proves that you think having the Holy Spirit and regeneration are one and the same thing.

Regeneration and having the holy Spirit are related, but two different things.

A man obeys because he has been regenerated.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is unique to New Testament believers. It is a gift from God, it is something that makes the new covenant different than the old covenant.

Jesus told his disciples that he would give them a gift, the indwelling holy spirit. Prior to the New Covenant, people were regenerated, but they didn't have the indwelling Spirit in the same way New Testament believers do. In the Old Testament, the Spirit would come and go from the saints, empowering them for service but not necessarily remaining with them. In the New Testament, Jesus revealed to His disciples the new role the Spirit of Truth would play in their lives: “He lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:17).

So, to answer your question, the way a person obeys is because of regeneration. That is how people have always obeyed, even in the Old Testament before the Indwelling Spirit was given to believers as a gift. A person then is sealed with the holy spirit because of their faith.

To reiterate, having the indwelling Spirit and being regenerate are not the same thing, though they are both true of Christians in our new covenant.

I didn't say anything about the indwelling of the Spirit. Acts says 'given'. Are you saying one can be regenerated without being given the Spirit?
 
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bling

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So bling, if an unbeliever chooses not to lie, how are they satisfying a need they have? If an unbeliever chooses not to lie, is that not in obedience to God's command? Who are they obeying if they choose not to lie?

Why are they choosing: “not to lie”?

There are lots of “wrong” reasons to choose “not to lie” on an occasion.

1 Cor. 13: If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

If a nonbeliever does anything without being motivated by Godly type Love it is worthy of nothing and the nonbeliever does not have Godly type love, so how can he/she do anything in obedience to God.

Love comes before obedience and the nonbeliever does not have this Godly type Love?
 
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EmSw

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Why are they choosing: “not to lie”?

There are lots of “wrong” reasons to choose “not to lie” on an occasion.

1 Cor. 13: If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

If a nonbeliever does anything without being motivated by Godly type Love it is worthy of nothing and the nonbeliever does not have Godly type love, so how can he/she do anything in obedience to God.

Love comes before obedience and the nonbeliever does not have this Godly type Love?

So God doesn't love the unbeliever? Does God withhold His love to the unbeliever? If so, then John 3:16 is pretty meaningless.
 
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Skala

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EmSw

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Then what did you mean by "without the Spirit"?

I was referring to the fact the Spirit is 'given' to those who obey Him. Before the Spirit dwells within a believer, it has to be given first. The Spirit doesn't indwell a believer, and then afterwards given to the believer.
 
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watchman 2

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We read these words from Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

How does an unsaved person obey without the Holy Spirit?

They don't!
Obedience is different to God than it is to us. Obedience to God or the obedience He's interested in is the kind that "never" falls short. True obedience is when someone is completely obedient , from the second their born , until the last second when they die. Never even having a disobedient thought through out their entire life. Thats the only obedience Gods interested in. Having an obedient moment is worth nothing in Gods eyes.

We have that obedience when we are clothed with Jesus Christ. We are clothed with Jesus Christ when we have the Spirit of Christ. Rom. 8:9 Of coarse we all have the opportunity to present either our Faith in Christ, (our surrendered life) or our obedience to be tested as true Spiritual obedience. But so far only one has been able to do that.
 
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Job8

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How does an unsaved person obey without the Holy Spirit?
Why do we continue to beat dead horses? Why do you think that the Gospel is called the power of God unto salvation? Why do you think the Holy Spirit was sent to earth to convict and to convince sinners? Why do you think that the Lord Jesus Christ said that after He was lifted up on the Cross, He would draw all men to Himself?

The Scripture you have quoted speaks of the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey the Gospel -- those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Acts 2:38. Before that happens, the Holy Spirit speaks to the sinner who hears the Gospel to tell him that he needs to receive Christ as his Lord and Savior.
 
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watchman 2

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Why do we continue to beat dead horses? Why do you think that the Gospel is called the power of God unto salvation? Why do you think the Holy Spirit was sent to earth to convict and to convince sinners? Why do you think that the Lord Jesus Christ said that after He was lifted up on the Cross, He would draw all men to Himself?

The Scripture you have quoted speaks of the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey the Gospel -- those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Acts 2:38. Before that happens, the Holy Spirit speaks to the sinner who hears the Gospel to tell him that he needs to receive Christ as his Lord and Savior.


Obey the Gospel ? Good luck with that.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi Em, this should probably be considered concerning unbelievers.

"A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." ~1 Cor 2:14

How can someone who does not know God, and who will not accept/cannot understand the things of God, be expected to "obey" God :scratch:

God needs to change/quicken our hearts and make us into new creatures in His Son (i.e. Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:1-5; 2 Corinthians 5:17). We need to be brought to spiritual life first (IOW, we need to be "regenerated" by God, as Skala has already mentioned in this thread).

Yours and His,
David



"Unless one is born again he cannot
see the kingdom of God"

John 3:3





 
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EmSw

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Hi Em, this should probably be considered concerning unbelievers.

"A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." ~1 Cor 2:14

How can someone who does not know God, and who will not accept/cannot understand the things of God, be expected to "obey" God :scratch:

God needs to change/quicken our hearts and make us into new creatures in His Son (i.e. Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:1-5; 2 Corinthians 5:17). We need to be brought to spiritual life first (IOW, we need to be "regenerated" by God, as Skala has already mentioned in this thread).

Yours and His,
David

Hello David. How can anyone be regenerated if he does not accept the things of God? If regeneration is foolishness to him, how will any unbeliever accept it? If you say God forces His regeneration on man, you might have a point.

Natural man can obey the things of God. If it were not possible, then we might as well lock up every unbeliever, for they cannot understand and accept that God says do not murder. Let me ask you, was 'do not murder' foolishness to you while unsaved? Did you murder and not not accept that murder was against God's law? What unbeliever, but the vilest, cannot understand God's law of 'do not murder'?

Besides, even those who are new creatures can't understand and accept God's law of not sinning. Some see nothing wrong with sinning. Some can't understand and accept God's word about keeping the commandments to inherit eternal life. So, it's not the natural man verses the spiritual man as far as accepting the things of God. It's those who freely choose to obey the things of God.
 
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EmSw

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How did YHWH expect Cain to obey ?

Contrarily, how does someone WHO IS "SAVED" continually DISOBEY ? Are they really saved ?

Did God expect Cain to disobey? If so, then why didn't God tell Cain to keep murdering?

So, you are saying those who disobey aren't saved? Are you saying obedience is essential to salvation?
 
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Did God expect Cain to disobey? If so, then why didn't God tell Cain to keep murdering?

So, you are saying those who disobey aren't saved? Are you saying obedience is essential to salvation?
YHWH knew before HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT
everything that was going to take place, right through TODAY and everything we've ever done and ever will do.

Did Y'SHUA tell anyone to murder ? Did YHWH tell anyone to murder ?

What does 1st John say, in line with all the Scripture ? (about those who say they are in the LIGHT, but walk in darkness and the LIGHT is not in them/ paraphrased and concise)

In Revelation, etc, who is saved ? The children of disobedience? (what is written about them?) or the slaves of RIGHTEOUSNESS ?
 
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