How does the shutdown end?

[hedrick]

There's one more option: a court could say that the current situation is violating the Constitutional prohibition of slavery. That seems like a pretty obvious outcome.

 

[loveofourlord]

There's one more option: a court could say that the current situation is violating the Constitutional prohibition of slavery. That seems like a pretty obvious outcome.

exccept one court already denied that.

 

[Phil.Stein]

Yes. As I said I am surprised he is not losing support at a rate faster then he currently is.

Why? The people most directly impacted by this are democrats anyway. Most of his supporters don't rely on government handouts for income - they make an income in spite of the obstacles government employees put in their way. Less government employees - less obstacles - ultimately - more income for those who work for it.

I just can't wait till Trump gets rid of airport security and either replaces them with cheerful, professional folk who respect people's rights, or does away with the charade entirely. Most of the airport security I've encountered are so rude and would fit better in Nazi Germany.

 

[hedrick]

exccept one court already denied that.

One court failed to issue an injunction. That's far from a final judgement. See https://federalnewsnetwork.com/gove...uide-to-pending-government-shutdown-lawsuits/ for a broader review. Interestingly, there still an ongoing action from a 2013 shutdown, in which a court seems to have agreed that it was illegal not to pay employees, and the parties are currently calculating damages.

They don't actually seem to be arguing over slavery. Rather, there's a Federal law that requires you to pay employees. The employees aren't being paid because there's a law saying that an agency can't spend money that hasn't been appropriated. But there's an interesting argument that by allowing employees to work, you're obligating money anyway. You need to be a lawyer, and read all the briefs, to really make a judgement. And I'm not a lawyer and haven't read all the briefs.

 

[camille70]

Why? The people most directly impacted by this are democrats anyway. Most of his supporters don't rely on government handouts for income - they make an income in spite of the obstacles government employees put in their way. Less government employees - less obstacles - ultimately - more income for those who work for it.

I just can't wait till Trump gets rid of airport security and either replaces them with cheerful, professional folk who respect people's rights, or does away with the charade entirely. Most of the airport security I've encountered are so rude and would fit better in Nazi Germany.

You really believe this, huh?

 

[Belk]

Why? The people most directly impacted by this are democrats anyway. Most of his supporters don't rely on government handouts for income - they make an income in spite of the obstacles government employees put in their way. Less government employees - less obstacles - ultimately - more income for those who work for it.

Farmers, miners, and other blue collar workers are the ones being impacted right now. Those are areas that voted heavily for Trump. Who do you think is being impacted that are on the democratic side?

I just can't wait till Trump gets rid of airport security and either replaces them with cheerful, professional folk who respect people's rights, or does away with the charade entirely. Most of the airport security I've encountered are so rude and would fit better in Nazi Germany.

The theater security was silly, but I don't see it going away any time soon.

 

[Phil.Stein]

Farmers, miners, and other blue collar workers are the ones being impacted right now. Those are areas that voted heavily for Trump. Who do you think is being impacted that are on the democratic side?

Farmers, miners and blue collar workers are employed by the government? Less government = more freedom.

The theater security was silly, but I don't see it going away any time soon.

I guess it depends. If Trump gets his wall, it may prove to be a better deterrant to terrorism than the current water transport prohibition and shoe/underwear checks.

 

[hislegacy]

Fair, but that's not the link you originally posted. Despite my continued efforts, I'm still unable to read minds...

In looking for a shorter video. I linked the wrong one. My apologies.

 

[camille70]

Farmers, miners and blue collar workers are employed by the government? Less government = more freedom.

I guess it depends. If Trump gets his wall, it may prove to be a better deterrant to terrorism than the current water transport prohibition and shoe/underwear checks.

Short-sighted. You think only employees are being affected? Is that why Trump ordered (possibly illegally) FSA workers back to cut subsidy checks so farmers don't lose their farms? There are large amounts of SNAP users in red stats that might not get benefits next month. Domestic violence shelters not getting funded. Nursing homes notgetting federal funds. Beer makers who can't put out new products. I know for years the conservative talking point is that dems and poor blacks are the only ones who benefit from the government, but that is not the case.

It's also interesting how many are willing to gladly see Americans suffer if they think someone votes differently from them. This last criticism applies to both dems and GOP voters.

 

[Belk]

Farmers, miners and blue collar workers are employed by the government? Less government = more freedom.

No. They are not employed by the government. They are being negatively affected by the shutdown. As a former armed forces member let me remind you that it was us government employees who protected your freedom.

I guess it depends. If Trump gets his wall, it may prove to be a better deterrant to terrorism than the current water transport prohibition and shoe/underwear checks.

Sure it will.

 

[Phil.Stein]

Short-sighted. You think only employees are being affected? Is that why Trump ordered (possibly illegally) FSA workers back to cut subsidy checks so farmers don't lose their farms? There are large amounts of SNAP users in red stats that might not get benefits next month. Domestic violence shelters not getting funded. Nursing homes notgetting federal funds. Beer makers who can't put out new products. I know for years the conservative talking point is that dems and poor blacks are the only ones who benefit from the government, but that is not the case.

It's also interesting how many are willing to gladly see Americans suffer if they think someone votes differently from them. This last criticism applies to both dems and GOP voters.

I'm not necessarily glad to see Americans suffer. Or democrats. But I do understand that coming out of an addiction, even one as innocent-seeming as suckling at a government teat, can be painful and difficult at first.

 

[loveofourlord]

as it was pointed out when many states tried to cecede from the united statse, many red states get more money from the federal goverment then they give back, and many of them have the highest welfare rates...hmmmm so wonder if it's more democrats or republicans being effected.

 

[Phil.Stein]

No. They are not employed by the government. They are being negatively affected by the shutdown. As a former armed forces member let me remind you that it was us government employees who protected your freedom.

I guess the armed forces often don't get thought of as government employees, so this is a good point, although I don't accept that all wars that the US engaged in were to protect my freedom (or the freedom of most American people).

Why doesn't Trump just use the military to build his wall? It will save lives (less wars to engage in), and money... Or would that be blocked by democrats also?

 

[hedrick]

I guess the armed forces often don't get thought of as government employees, so this is a good point, although I don't accept that all wars that the US engaged in were to protect my freedom (or the freedom of most American people).

Why doesn't Trump just use the military to build his wall? It will save lives (less wars to engage in), and money... Or would that be blocked by democrats also?

That’s actually one fairly probable end. Trump declares an emergency and then reopens the government. With the emergency he can reallocate some funds for the wall. However not as much as he wants.

 

[mark kennedy]

I think this would cost Mitch his power though

Little known fun fact, during the whole debacle with repealing Obamacare deliberation was squashed by one man, Mitch McConnell. All he has to say is, 'I object':

Mitch McConnell blocked another bill to reopen the government, marking the third time he has knocked down House-passed government funding bills. McConnell gave no explanation for the move, but he has said over the last few weeks that he will not bring government funding bills to a vote unless the bill is the result of negotiations between Trump and the Democrats. (The Hill)
​

Trump is bound and determined not to negotiate, he wants the money for his wall on a silver platter giving nothing in return.

"That principled mindset, and the service of our predecessors who possessed it, come to mind when I hear the Senate referred to as the world's greatest deliberative body. I'm not sure we can claim that distinction with a straight face today. (Watch: Sen. McCain Calls For Compromise In Return To Senate Floor NPR)
​

John McCain warned us then that there is a serious problem in the Senate, we are seeing it emerge again and again. No one wants to see Trump handed a defeat over his key achievement that could get him reelected in a landslide, I would celebrate it. But not like this, not by creating a log jam in the Senate that makes so much of the work of the House of Representative meaningless since it will never be truly considered by the Senate. This isn't the failure of a President to do his job, the House has not failed us, the Senate itself has the will and the votes to end this. Mitch McConnell has derailed the deliberative process and that is why this Congress has been so woefully inactive for at least two years.

Someone deserves to get the blame for this pointless shutdown of the government, it will probably be Trump but I blame Mitch McConnell, I've watched this unfold in helpless frustration for a couple of years now and the problem isn't Trump, the House of Representatives of even the Senate, I blame Mitch McConnell.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Belk]

I guess the armed forces often don't get thought of as government employees, so this is a good point, although I don't accept that all wars that the US engaged in were to protect my freedom (or the freedom of most American people).

No, not all of them were. It still remains the government protecting your freedom.

Why doesn't Trump just use the military to build his wall? It will save lives (less wars to engage in), and money... Or would that be blocked by democrats also?

I'm thinking that using the Army to build a wall on the land of citizens without their consent would pose several constitutional challenges.

 

[SimplyMe]

No, not all of them were. It still remains the government protecting your freedom.

I'm thinking that using the Army to build a wall on the land of citizens without their consent would pose several constitutional challenges.

I won't say that Trump couldn't order the military to build the wall; as you point out, the issue is still that much of the money will be for building supplies, the equipment needed to build the wall, as well as buying the land (in some cases) that the wall will sit on -- as well as roads and other infrastructure to get the material to the site where the wall will be constructed. Of course, since the military (outside the Corp of Engineers) are not construction workers, there could be as much waste in sections where they screw up building the wall that it may not actually save much money compared to hiring construction crews.

 

[mark kennedy]

I won't say that Trump couldn't order the military to build the wall; as you point out, the issue is still that much of the money will be for building supplies, the equipment needed to build the wall, as well as buying the land (in some cases) that the wall will sit on -- as well as roads and other infrastructure to get the material to the site where the wall will be constructed. Of course, since the military (outside the Corp of Engineers) are not construction workers, there could be as much waste in sections where they screw up building the wall that it may not actually save much money compared to hiring construction crews.

More and more I don't think this has anything to do with the wall, this is a diversion for the onslaught of investigations that threaten. Trump is getting mauled in the polls and he has had to money for that wall handed to him on a silver platter several times. Mitch McConnell is using the distraction to accumulate power, this has nothing to do with a wall, it's about power and who controls it and it isn't the President.

 

[loveofourlord]

More and more I don't think this has anything to do with the wall, this is a diversion for the onslaught of investigations that threaten. Trump is getting mauled in the polls and he has had to money for that wall handed to him on a silver platter several times. Mitch McConnell is using the distraction to accumulate power, this has nothing to do with a wall, it's about power and who controls it and it isn't the President.

my weird theory is, he knows he's going down soon, and this is just his attempt to have some kind of legacy.

 

[variant]

exccept one court already denied that.

At some point forcing people to work without pay is going to be considered a violation of the law.