How does Orthodoxy view the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement?

[Cappadocious]

There are.

 

[Lukaris]

I think within the Orthodox Church the charismatic expression of Pentecostalism (for ex.) is incompatible for our expression of faith. There are external differences and underlying theological differences that would seem to disrupt our way. In a most basic sense it would seem our basic order of repentance and confession needed to partake of the Eucharist would be affected by psychological expression which would be at odds with our own. Additionally it seems that our creed centered faith lacks the doctrinal focus in charismatic expression.

I do not mean to express a negative view towards charismatic expression in general. Charismatics like the late Pastor Dave Wilkerson show there is great faith expression found within the movement but on the other extreme, Benny Hinn should be a red flag to an Orthodox Christian.

I just want to add that I initially overlooked "Catholic" when forming my thoughts for my post although I read the thread itself while unaware of the particular topic of Catholic charismatic expression itself. My post might be a little off in some respect.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We have miracle workers, even to this day. Recently glorified St Paisios of Mt Athos was a lay monk and he was known for his many gifts.

Very wonderful man..

 

[~Anastasia~]

(Benny Hinn was raised Orthodox, wasn't he?)

 

[Lukaris]

(Benny Hinn was raised Orthodox, wasn't he?)

I think what you mention is sad but true.

 

[Lukaris]

(Benny Hinn was raised Orthodox, wasn't he?)

double post

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think what you mention is sad but true.

Perhaps not at all well catechized. I should say, I think his mother was Orthodox. He was probably baptized. Went to Catholic school I think. But headed in a different direction early in life.

Yes, sad.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Perhaps not at all well catechized. I should say, I think his mother was Orthodox. He was probably baptized. Went to Catholic school I think. But headed in a different direction early in life.

Yes, sad.

Personally, it was something that always perplexed me when others found it odd that Benny Hinn (who grew up Catholic) worked with Catholic nuns at his Healing meetings since I saw Catholics in action and they were aware of how much the Early Church Fathers (Church mothers as well ) knew the Power of God. It is not a small thing to see how even Hinn grew up at Catholic schools/grew up in a Greek Orthodox Middle Eastern family - and STILL works with the nuns while also being in the Charismatic Movement.

​

Hinn shared more on his views in the book Good Morning Holy Spirit and others over the years when it came to his Orthodox background. His main criticism that came in regards to Orthodoxy was feeling like he was not able to experience God's presence in it and feeling that most of the prayers were fixed in Greek Orthodox/Catholic tradition (like the Lord's prayer, as an example), with others seeming to simply be focused on procedure and having things be systematic entirely instead of others feeling they could talk to the Lord outside of those forms in regular conversation.....and that the rituals and traditions became such a focus that expecting the Lord to move powerfully outside of that was not acceptable, as if God could not speak outside of Divine Liturgy in what it presents....or someone being healed outside of service due to prayer from believers one on one when it came to following the Holy Spirit.

If I can ask one of my friends in either Coptic Orthodoxy or Greek Orthodoxy via Facebook to pray on a family situation (as I have) and they prayed with me on the spot - also referencing the Saints and traditional prayers to pray as well - then there's nothing saying the Holy Spirit isn't involved if in Divine Liturgy and saying fixed prayers. As it is, with Hinn, the services he's in already use worship songs for all to sing and the audiences did not create the words to those songs....yet they sing them. Thus, I see no reason for Hinn or others to feel upset when others pray prayers they did not write since the Source (whom it's offered to) is what matters.

Of course, hearing the critique and already disagreeing at multiple points with Hinn (as I did not appreciate much of his sensationalism and a host of other unbiblical practices), I could understand where he was coming from. I've meet Syrian Orthodox Christians who noted how they did not like how much they saw others in their Church doing Divine Liturgy and praying, yet they acted entirely opposite of Christ by the time they got home since it was all done out of a cultural experience more so than out of worship for God. One of the people I talked to (who ended up looking outside of his church) shared on how he saw others always criticizing people outside of Orthodoxy in a manner akin to a cult and yet they were not opposed to slander, gossip, back-biting and all forms of immorality simply they felt they had fullness of Truth.

It was an intellectual experience for them and many other Cradle felt the same way. Others who were Converts had the same dynamic going on when coming out of bad church situations they were in and seeing the beauty/consistency of Orthodoxy - but then assuming that simply having the immense amount of tools/resources in Orthodoxy for walking the path to Christ meant that they had already reached Christ in their final destination.

Unfortunately, I feel he had a very bad experience within Orthodoxy since there are numerous Orthodox priests/laymen who have all noted that having fixed prayers does not prohibit a person from praying to the Lord on their own in private with whatever comes to their mind - or that they cannot pray with others/believe the Lord to do amazing things. It's not a binary model of "Either pray traditional prayers or don't pray at all" as praying traditional prayers is a matter of praying prayers that do work/have a track record while also giving a template for others needing a model to pray. In Liturgy, we're ALL ONE Body praying together and fixed prayers are a means of ensuring that ....yet that's not opposite of a couple of believers hanging out at a park and then choosing to pray together simply without fixed prayers. The Saints were very organic in how they prayed at several points - with the Book of Acts showing that at many points as well as the lifestyle of Christ.

As noted best elsewhere in discussion:

Hinn was born in Jaffa, in 1952, in the then newly established state of Israel. His father was of Greek heritage and in communion with the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem of the Eastern Orthodox Churches and his mother an Armenian in communion with the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem. He was raised within the Eastern Orthodox tradition. As a teenager in Toronto, Hinn converted from Greek Orthodoxy to Pentecostalism, eventually joining a singing troupe made up of young evangelicals...Hinn was taught the bible and mentored by Winston I. Nunes of Faith Temple in Toronto.

Hinn's criticism is pretty common. I've certainly heard it before.

So, the reason why we use these standard prayers is because we know they work. In the case of the Lord's Prayer, it was clearly given to humanity by Christ himself. There is an excellent reason for us saying them. That being said, I know that when I was growing up Catholic, there was definitely a temptation for me to simply say Hail Marys and Our Fathers and call it a day. I was saying the right words, but without much intentionality behind them. So I get that part of Hinn's criticism.

I think he is wrong for a couple of reasons, though. The positive thing you have to say is that Orthodox spirituality has an ancient tradition of prayer and mysticism that is beyond anything else in the world. In fact, Orthodox mysticism is what first caught my eye as a Catholic. Even though there are Catholic mystics, it is not uncommon today to have Catholic schools and clergy recommending Orthodox literature for those pursuing spirituality and mysticism. Look at the dispute between St. Gregory Palamas and Barlaam. It would be hard to argue there is any Christian church that puts a higher value on mysticism and communion with God than the Orthodox Church.

On the negative side, one of the arguments I've heard articulated against Hinn-type prayer is that it can be rather Pharisaical. Jesus told us to shut the door and pray in private, not loudly speaking in public in an overwrought manner. If you want a really horrifying example of Pharisaical prayer, find Gov. Rick Perry's "prayer" at his rally in the Houston stadium. Really a sad example of someone using "prayer" as a commercial.

To tie it all together, Orthodox are taught to value and use the standard prayers we have received from Jesus, the Bible, and tradition. When we are still learning to pray, these prayers keep us from error. Some of the commonest errors, in turn, are focusing only on our own needs and praying demonstratively in the way Jesus cautioned us against. Orthodoxy does not, however, exclude anyone from praying in a more personal, "charismatic" manner.​

G

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[dzheremi]

No matter his roots, Benny Hill is a charlatan, and the charismatic movement is in large measure soul-destroying, heretical, pseudo-spirituality masquerading as Christianity, but with the devil at the helm.

 

[rakovsky]

How does Orthodoxy view the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement? Is there anything similar happening within the Orthodox world? Are there any Charismatic Orthodox Christians? Do you believe that there is a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit now as in the past?

God bless

Do a Google search for Orthodox Wiki. It has an article called Charismatic Movement.
Orthodox Wiki is an encyclopedia and it has an essay that summarizes the orthodox POV and links to the major orthodox essays on the topic.

 

[rakovsky]

I'm by no means any expert, but I think that in general we tend not to make judgments on what is outside our "area" ...

From what I have read, the Holy Spirit has always been active within the Orthodox Church. There is no need for a "new outpouring" as He has never stopped being active. One does tend to see more intense examples in the lives of those who seek God most earnestly though, so that we hear about it more from monasteries and those who have truly devoted their lives to God.

Charismatic movement claims that the Spirit got very weak in the Church in 100 to 200 AD and that in 1830 to now their movement, mostly protestant, getS a renewal.

 

[rakovsky]

Cessationism is not the position of Orthodoxy. But the Charismatic Movement is rejected by orthodoxy also. The notion that we need to feel and be empowered by the Holy Spirit is the complete opposite of what the apostolic fathers teach us. Orthodoxy also flatly rejects emotionalism worship. Also, regarding the Coptic church comment above. Whilst Protestant thought has infected certain Coptic communities it is in no way supported by the hierarchy by the Coptic church. In fact I've only known Coptic bishops to excommucate rarely, and normally its to deal with these heterodox ideas

A version of cessationism is Orthodox and taught by st John chrysostom. That's how he explains the loss of the tongues gift being widespread. But orthodoxy is not absolutist in its cessationism like Reformed protestantism is.

Cessationism is the orthodox explanation for why tongues like in 1 Cor 14 stopped being common.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No matter his roots, Benny Hill is a charlatan, and the charismatic movement is in large measure soul-destroying, heretical, pseudo-spirituality masquerading as Christianity, but with the devil at the helm.

Sad but true.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

BI'm not wishing to speak badly of the Pentecostals and Charismatics who on the whole are simply seeking God as openly and with their hearts as much as they know how. They are just trying to build the pure faith from the ground up, like many others have felt forced to try to do. They simply don't have the benefit of the very vast storehouse of treasure the Orthodox Church holds. Indeed, sometimes I think it is the very vastness that keeps others at arm's length. I'm realizing that they often see just one facet, and reject the whole utterly because they think that one face is the totality of Orthodoxy, and especially if they don't understand it, it seems to them incompatible with what they themselves know of spiritual things. Given the current discussion, the Liturgy is a good example for Pentecostals, who see only that and think it represents the whole of our experience, and so reject the entire faith out of hand as seeming "dead" to them, without realizing that yes, there are demons being cast out, miraculous healing going on, miracles, words of knowledge delivered on a regular basis, and so on. Just within the right context.

Peace to all.

I think part of the issue comes down to realizing (after re-reading your comments) that not everyone (or the majority even) are automatically lost if involved in the Charismatic branch of the Protestant world - just as it's not the case that all within the Orthodox world are automatically saved since many of them are going to be lost just as quickly as anyone in a crazy branch in Christianity. And as no one has experienced all branches of a movement, it is impossible to speak about what it is like fully and would be arrogant to do so in the name of claiming anyone involved in Charismatic culture (or Protestant culture) rather than Orthodoxy is automatically without the Gospel or unsaved like people know the hearts of others.

As said best in another thread:

I think that you should remember that conversion is not salvation. Our goal and our prayer is for the salvation of all. We can work toward that by changing hearts and minds slowly and lovingly, not by recruiting them to come to our liturgies. Sometimes all we can do is to pray for them lovingly. If we love people unconditionally and they see it in how we live, they will wonder and ask "how do you do that?" (love unconditionaly), then we can tell them "come and see". But to tell them come and see, when we have not lived in a way that makes them feel that wonder, then who are we to tell them what they need to do?

I often reflect back on a quote of St Seraphim of Serov..."Acquire a peaceful spirit and thousands around you will be saved."

I think that it's all about the Orthodox mindset as opposed to the Evangelical mindset.

Orthodoxy doesn't say: "If you don't go to my church you are going to hell" like many of the Evangelicals do.

The Orthodox mindset is:

I know that Orthodoxy is within the Church of God but...
I don't know what is outside of the Church of God.

The result is that there is not the sense of urgency to convert everybody to Orthodoxy.