How does Orthodoxy view Protestant, Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Martyrs ?

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

that's tough because he wrote a lot.

LOL. True.

 

[All4Christ]

@Jude1:3Contendforthefaith I often talked with my priest before reading a specific writing from St Augustine. He was typically able to tell me if it was a good representation of Orthodox faith.

 

[All4Christ]

My personal thought and understanding is that he had some errors and gray areas in his theology, but that he also was blessed and holy, thus allowing him to be a saint. He had many important valid writings as well, and he did not intentionally go against the direction from the Church. He did not schism from the Church.

No single church father was 100% correct all the time. It is the consensus of the fathers / Church as a whole that is important to follow. Individually, they are useful. As a consensus and as affirmed by the Church ecumenical councils, they are critical.

 

[ArmyMatt]

LOL. True.

yup.

 

[Protomartyr Alban]

I was thinking about this today and I just wanted to know how The Orthodox Church views those in Heterodoxy but die for their faith in The Lord Jesus Christ, for translating The Bible into English, for Preaching in Muslim lands, missionaries who were killed by cannibal tribes Etc ? Also, Oriental Orthodox Martyrs in the Middle East.


Are they given a Martyrs' crown ?

Can any of them be considered A Saint with a capital "S" with in Orthodoxy ?


List of Catholic martyrs of the English Reformation - Wikipedia

List of Protestant martyrs of the English Reformation - Wikipedia

Category:Oriental Orthodox saints - Wikipedia

The short answer is no, they are not martyrs and they are not in heaven. We are forbidden from visiting their graves and especially from venerating them - we pray for their salvation. They aren't considered saints with a small 's', let alone a capital.

Here is an informative video on the matter.

 

[Protomartyr Alban]

this is a schismatic site. and it neglects to mention St Augustine is called a saint at an Ecumenical Council (I believe the 6th).

"We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith."
- 5th Ecumenical Council

What is the official view of Augustine's teachings in Eastern Orthodoxy ?

Apolytikion, Tone 4
Today the whole inhabited world rejoices and radiantly celebrates thy memory, thou who hast trampled down heresy and confirmed Orthodoxy, and who hast given drink to the hearts of the faithful with the river of thy words, O servant of the Most Holy Trinity and inextinguishable lamp of the Church, O holy hierarch Augustine, entreat Christ God that our souls be saved.

Kontakion, Tone 2
Holy Hierarch and theologian, boast of the Church of Christ, instructor of piety and confirmation of the Orthodox faith, uprooter of heresies, treasury of mystical teachings; blessed Father Augustine, most wondrous hierarch, ever pray for us all.

From St Photios, Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit:
66. They oppose Ambrose, Augustine, Jerome, and some others to the teaching of the Church, for they say that these men taught that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. They say, 'One ought not to charge the sacred fathers with the crime of ungodliness. Either one agrees with their opinion because they taught piously and are acknowledged as fathers, or they, together with their teaching, should be rejected as impious because they introduced godless doctrines.' Such things are said by youths who senseless fear lest anything rash that could be accomplished through their will and zeal escape the achievement of their daring. They were not content with perverting the Lord's word and slandering the herald of piety with impiety, but they deem their exploit unfulfilled if they do not find means whereby they might heap contumely upon those whom they honor as fathers. But simple is the world of truth which confounds them and which says, 'Take care whither you are going, how long you will plunge your destruction into the vitals of your soul.'
67. Who is it who really regards as fathers those sacred men whom you bring forward through a contentious love of apostasy as defenders of ungodliness? Who better sustains their rights as Fathers? He who denies that these men contradict our common Lord in anything, or he who compels them to establish a testimony opposed to the Lord's word and who distorts with his own quibblings that admirable mystagogy by which we theologize that the Spirit proceeds from the Father? Is it not evidence that heresy attributes the name of Father to those memorable men only in words? For heresy does not begrudge attributing the appellation of Father bereft of all honor; but through the deed of this casuistry, heresy of its own will exiles them into the portion of impious and corrupt men, unless these men who dare everything think to glorify the fathers with such prerogatives.
68. Who is it who says Ambrose or Augustine or anyone else affirmed things contrary to the Lord's word? If it is I, I insult your fathers. But if you say it, while I deny it, then you insult them, and I condemn you as a blasphemer of the fathers. But, you retort, they have written so, and their works contain the statement that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. What of it? For if they had been instructed and did not change their opinion, if after rebukes they were not persuaded (this is again another calumny against your fathers), then you may reckon your own deed and ascribe your own incorrigible opinion to their doctrine. Although in other things they are of equal stature with the best, what does it have to do with you? For if they have slipped into some error or been subject to any negligence—for such is the human condition—when they were admonished, they did not correct, nor were they contumacious when corrected. How will they who bear no resemblance to you deliver you from ineluctable judgment? Although they were admirable by reason of many other qualities which manifest virtue and piety, they professed your godless error either through ignorance or negligence. But if they in no manner shared the benefit of your advantages, why do you introduce their human defect as a mandate for your blasphemous belief? By your mandate, you attest that men who have legislated nothing of this sort are open transgressors, and so you demand a penalty for the uttermost blasphemy under the mask of benevolence and love. The results of your attempts do not benefit you. Observe the impious exaggeration and stupidity of the base mind. They bring the Lord to be their advocate, and they are discovered calumniators. They have called upon the apostles to plead their cause, and they were detected to have slandered them likewise. They fled in turn to the fathers, but they heap great blasphemy upon them instead of honor.
70. I do not admit that what you assert was so plainly taught by them, but if they happened to express some such thing, if they happen to fall into something unbecoming, then I would imitate the good sons of Noah and hide my fathers' shame, bu using silence and gratitude as a cloak. I would not follow Ham's example, as you do. Rather, you are crueler and more imprudent than he, for you publish abroad the shame of those you call your fathers. Now, he fell under the curse, not because he uncovered his father, but because he did not cover him. You, however, both uncover your father and vaunt your audacity. He tells the secret to his brothers; you tell yours not to brothers, or to one or two persons, but turning the whole world into a great theatre, you trumpet with all urgency and shamelessness that your fathers are ignomious. You revel in their shame and delight in their dishonor, and you seek out fellow revelers with whom to make more conspicuous festival of their disgrace and shame. But you did not consider they were human, and no one one formed from clay and mutable matter can maintain himself forever superior to a human blunder. Indeed, it happens that a trace of some blemish clings to even the best of men.
71. Augustine and Jerome said that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. How can one trust or vouch with confidence that their writings have not been maliciously altered after the passage of so much time? For do not think that you are the only one eager for impiety and bold in things not to be dared. Rather, form this very condition of your own mind, consider that nothing hindered the guileful enemy of our race from finding vessels for such a deed.
72. Augustine and Jerome said these things. But perhaps they spoke out of the necessity of attacking the madness of the pagans or of refuting another heretical opinion or of condescending to the weakness of their hearers, or out of the necessity of any one of the many reasons that human life daily presents. If such a statement escaped their lips because of one or more of the above reasons, why do you make a dogma and a law of what was not spoken by them with dogmatic significance and so bring irreparable ruin upon yourself by contentiously enlisting them in your dementia?

 

[ArmyMatt]

"We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith."
- 5th Ecumenical Council


Apolytikion, Tone 4
Today the whole inhabited world rejoices and radiantly celebrates thy memory, thou who hast trampled down heresy and confirmed Orthodoxy, and who hast given drink to the hearts of the faithful with the river of thy words, O servant of the Most Holy Trinity and inextinguishable lamp of the Church, O holy hierarch Augustine, entreat Christ God that our souls be saved.

Kontakion, Tone 2
Holy Hierarch and theologian, boast of the Church of Christ, instructor of piety and confirmation of the Orthodox faith, uprooter of heresies, treasury of mystical teachings; blessed Father Augustine, most wondrous hierarch, ever pray for us all.

From St Photios, Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit:
66. They oppose Ambrose, Augustine, Jerome, and some others to the teaching of the Church, for they say that these men taught that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. They say, 'One ought not to charge the sacred fathers with the crime of ungodliness. Either one agrees with their opinion because they taught piously and are acknowledged as fathers, or they, together with their teaching, should be rejected as impious because they introduced godless doctrines.' Such things are said by youths who senseless fear lest anything rash that could be accomplished through their will and zeal escape the achievement of their daring. They were not content with perverting the Lord's word and slandering the herald of piety with impiety, but they deem their exploit unfulfilled if they do not find means whereby they might heap contumely upon those whom they honor as fathers. But simple is the world of truth which confounds them and which says, 'Take care whither you are going, how long you will plunge your destruction into the vitals of your soul.'
67. Who is it who really regards as fathers those sacred men whom you bring forward through a contentious love of apostasy as defenders of ungodliness? Who better sustains their rights as Fathers? He who denies that these men contradict our common Lord in anything, or he who compels them to establish a testimony opposed to the Lord's word and who distorts with his own quibblings that admirable mystagogy by which we theologize that the Spirit proceeds from the Father? Is it not evidence that heresy attributes the name of Father to those memorable men only in words? For heresy does not begrudge attributing the appellation of Father bereft of all honor; but through the deed of this casuistry, heresy of its own will exiles them into the portion of impious and corrupt men, unless these men who dare everything think to glorify the fathers with such prerogatives.
68. Who is it who says Ambrose or Augustine or anyone else affirmed things contrary to the Lord's word? If it is I, I insult your fathers. But if you say it, while I deny it, then you insult them, and I condemn you as a blasphemer of the fathers. But, you retort, they have written so, and their works contain the statement that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. What of it? For if they had been instructed and did not change their opinion, if after rebukes they were not persuaded (this is again another calumny against your fathers), then you may reckon your own deed and ascribe your own incorrigible opinion to their doctrine. Although in other things they are of equal stature with the best, what does it have to do with you? For if they have slipped into some error or been subject to any negligence—for such is the human condition—when they were admonished, they did not correct, nor were they contumacious when corrected. How will they who bear no resemblance to you deliver you from ineluctable judgment? Although they were admirable by reason of many other qualities which manifest virtue and piety, they professed your godless error either through ignorance or negligence. But if they in no manner shared the benefit of your advantages, why do you introduce their human defect as a mandate for your blasphemous belief? By your mandate, you attest that men who have legislated nothing of this sort are open transgressors, and so you demand a penalty for the uttermost blasphemy under the mask of benevolence and love. The results of your attempts do not benefit you. Observe the impious exaggeration and stupidity of the base mind. They bring the Lord to be their advocate, and they are discovered calumniators. They have called upon the apostles to plead their cause, and they were detected to have slandered them likewise. They fled in turn to the fathers, but they heap great blasphemy upon them instead of honor.
70. I do not admit that what you assert was so plainly taught by them, but if they happened to express some such thing, if they happen to fall into something unbecoming, then I would imitate the good sons of Noah and hide my fathers' shame, bu using silence and gratitude as a cloak. I would not follow Ham's example, as you do. Rather, you are crueler and more imprudent than he, for you publish abroad the shame of those you call your fathers. Now, he fell under the curse, not because he uncovered his father, but because he did not cover him. You, however, both uncover your father and vaunt your audacity. He tells the secret to his brothers; you tell yours not to brothers, or to one or two persons, but turning the whole world into a great theatre, you trumpet with all urgency and shamelessness that your fathers are ignomious. You revel in their shame and delight in their dishonor, and you seek out fellow revelers with whom to make more conspicuous festival of their disgrace and shame. But you did not consider they were human, and no one one formed from clay and mutable matter can maintain himself forever superior to a human blunder. Indeed, it happens that a trace of some blemish clings to even the best of men.
71. Augustine and Jerome said that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. How can one trust or vouch with confidence that their writings have not been maliciously altered after the passage of so much time? For do not think that you are the only one eager for impiety and bold in things not to be dared. Rather, form this very condition of your own mind, consider that nothing hindered the guileful enemy of our race from finding vessels for such a deed.
72. Augustine and Jerome said these things. But perhaps they spoke out of the necessity of attacking the madness of the pagans or of refuting another heretical opinion or of condescending to the weakness of their hearers, or out of the necessity of any one of the many reasons that human life daily presents. If such a statement escaped their lips because of one or more of the above reasons, why do you make a dogma and a law of what was not spoken by them with dogmatic significance and so bring irreparable ruin upon yourself by contentiously enlisting them in your dementia?

View attachment 258402

booyah

 

[All4Christ]

The short answer is no, they are not martyrs and they are not in heaven. We are forbidden from visiting their graves and especially from venerating them - we pray for their salvation. They aren't considered saints with a small 's', let alone a capital.

Here is an informative video on the matter.

I have never heard anyone say that we can’t visit the graves of non-Orthodox. I for one am very thankful for that, as I wouldn’t be able to visit most of my family members.

 

[Not David]

I have never heard anyone say that we can’t visit the graves of non-Orthodox. I for one am very thankful for that, as I wouldn’t be able to visit most of my family members.

I believe he refers to Canon IX
Canon 9
The members of the Church are not allowed to meet in the cemeteries, nor attend the so-called martyries of any of the heretics, for prayer or service; but such as so do, if they be communicants, shall be excommunicated for a time; but if they repent and confess that they have sinned they shall be received.

Balsamon: "As canon vi. forbids heretics to enter the house of God, so this canon forbids the faithful to go to the cemeteries of heretics, which are called by them Martyries....For in the days of the persecution, certain of the heretics, calling themselves Christians, suffered even to death, and hence those who shared their opinions called them martyrs."

 

[archer75]

I have never heard anyone say that we can’t visit the graves of non-Orthodox. I for one am very thankful for that, as I wouldn’t be able to visit most of my family members.

Yes, I have literally never anything along these lines, ever (before now).

If we recognize that there can be Saints outside our communion, as I have heard more than one conservative voice say, why on earth can't we visit graves?

 

[prodromos]

Yes, I have literally never anything along these lines, ever (before now).

If we recognize that there can be Saints outside our communion, as I have heard more than one conservative voice say, why on earth can't we visit graves?

We can visit their graves and pray for them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe he refers to Canon IX
Canon 9
The members of the Church are not allowed to meet in the cemeteries, nor attend the so-called martyries of any of the heretics, for prayer or service; but such as so do, if they be communicants, shall be excommunicated for a time; but if they repent and confess that they have sinned they shall be received.

Balsamon: "As canon vi. forbids heretics to enter the house of God, so this canon forbids the faithful to go to the cemeteries of heretics, which are called by them Martyries....For in the days of the persecution, certain of the heretics, calling themselves Christians, suffered even to death, and hence those who shared their opinions called them martyrs."

yes, but remember the time that those canons were written. there is a huge difference between a heretic back in the day, who knowingly fought against the Church, and the heterodox of today who live and die ignorant of the Truth.

the kind of heterodox today didn't really exist back then.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

"We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith."
- 5th Ecumenical Council


View attachment 258402
Apolytikion, Tone 4
Today the whole inhabited world rejoices and radiantly celebrates thy memory, thou who hast trampled down heresy and confirmed Orthodoxy, and who hast given drink to the hearts of the faithful with the river of thy words, O servant of the Most Holy Trinity and inextinguishable lamp of the Church, O holy hierarch Augustine, entreat Christ God that our souls be saved.

Kontakion, Tone 2
Holy Hierarch and theologian, boast of the Church of Christ, instructor of piety and confirmation of the Orthodox faith, uprooter of heresies, treasury of mystical teachings; blessed Father Augustine, most wondrous hierarch, ever pray for us all.

From St Photios, Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit:
66. They oppose Ambrose, Augustine, Jerome, and some others to the teaching of the Church, for they say that these men taught that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. They say, 'One ought not to charge the sacred fathers with the crime of ungodliness. Either one agrees with their opinion because they taught piously and are acknowledged as fathers, or they, together with their teaching, should be rejected as impious because they introduced godless doctrines.' Such things are said by youths who senseless fear lest anything rash that could be accomplished through their will and zeal escape the achievement of their daring. They were not content with perverting the Lord's word and slandering the herald of piety with impiety, but they deem their exploit unfulfilled if they do not find means whereby they might heap contumely upon those whom they honor as fathers. But simple is the world of truth which confounds them and which says, 'Take care whither you are going, how long you will plunge your destruction into the vitals of your soul.'
67. Who is it who really regards as fathers those sacred men whom you bring forward through a contentious love of apostasy as defenders of ungodliness? Who better sustains their rights as Fathers? He who denies that these men contradict our common Lord in anything, or he who compels them to establish a testimony opposed to the Lord's word and who distorts with his own quibblings that admirable mystagogy by which we theologize that the Spirit proceeds from the Father? Is it not evidence that heresy attributes the name of Father to those memorable men only in words? For heresy does not begrudge attributing the appellation of Father bereft of all honor; but through the deed of this casuistry, heresy of its own will exiles them into the portion of impious and corrupt men, unless these men who dare everything think to glorify the fathers with such prerogatives.
68. Who is it who says Ambrose or Augustine or anyone else affirmed things contrary to the Lord's word? If it is I, I insult your fathers. But if you say it, while I deny it, then you insult them, and I condemn you as a blasphemer of the fathers. But, you retort, they have written so, and their works contain the statement that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. What of it? For if they had been instructed and did not change their opinion, if after rebukes they were not persuaded (this is again another calumny against your fathers), then you may reckon your own deed and ascribe your own incorrigible opinion to their doctrine. Although in other things they are of equal stature with the best, what does it have to do with you? For if they have slipped into some error or been subject to any negligence—for such is the human condition—when they were admonished, they did not correct, nor were they contumacious when corrected. How will they who bear no resemblance to you deliver you from ineluctable judgment? Although they were admirable by reason of many other qualities which manifest virtue and piety, they professed your godless error either through ignorance or negligence. But if they in no manner shared the benefit of your advantages, why do you introduce their human defect as a mandate for your blasphemous belief? By your mandate, you attest that men who have legislated nothing of this sort are open transgressors, and so you demand a penalty for the uttermost blasphemy under the mask of benevolence and love. The results of your attempts do not benefit you. Observe the impious exaggeration and stupidity of the base mind. They bring the Lord to be their advocate, and they are discovered calumniators. They have called upon the apostles to plead their cause, and they were detected to have slandered them likewise. They fled in turn to the fathers, but they heap great blasphemy upon them instead of honor.
70. I do not admit that what you assert was so plainly taught by them, but if they happened to express some such thing, if they happen to fall into something unbecoming, then I would imitate the good sons of Noah and hide my fathers' shame, bu using silence and gratitude as a cloak. I would not follow Ham's example, as you do. Rather, you are crueler and more imprudent than he, for you publish abroad the shame of those you call your fathers. Now, he fell under the curse, not because he uncovered his father, but because he did not cover him. You, however, both uncover your father and vaunt your audacity. He tells the secret to his brothers; you tell yours not to brothers, or to one or two persons, but turning the whole world into a great theatre, you trumpet with all urgency and shamelessness that your fathers are ignomious. You revel in their shame and delight in their dishonor, and you seek out fellow revelers with whom to make more conspicuous festival of their disgrace and shame. But you did not consider they were human, and no one one formed from clay and mutable matter can maintain himself forever superior to a human blunder. Indeed, it happens that a trace of some blemish clings to even the best of men.
71. Augustine and Jerome said that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. How can one trust or vouch with confidence that their writings have not been maliciously altered after the passage of so much time? For do not think that you are the only one eager for impiety and bold in things not to be dared. Rather, form this very condition of your own mind, consider that nothing hindered the guileful enemy of our race from finding vessels for such a deed.
72. Augustine and Jerome said these things. But perhaps they spoke out of the necessity of attacking the madness of the pagans or of refuting another heretical opinion or of condescending to the weakness of their hearers, or out of the necessity of any one of the many reasons that human life daily presents. If such a statement escaped their lips because of one or more of the above reasons, why do you make a dogma and a law of what was not spoken by them with dogmatic significance and so bring irreparable ruin upon yourself by contentiously enlisting them in your dementia?

Wow, Great Post.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

yes, but remember the time that those canons were written. there is a huge difference between a heretic back in the day, who knowingly fought against the Church, and the heterodox of today who live and die ignorant of the Truth.

the kind of heterodox today didn't really exist back then.

I just want to add that there were / are still people (Yes even in 2019) who have never even heard of Eastern Orthodoxy and think that their only options are The Roman Catholic Church, The Baptist Church down the street, The non Denominational Evangelical Church down the street etc.

So it's more out of ignorance and not knowing about it than it is them actively and purposely rejecting and fighting against Orthodox Christianity.

I've said it before but now that we have the internet and the information is freely available and more accessible I believe that we are going to start to see record numbers of both Evangelicals / Protestants and Roman Catholics become Orthodox Christians. People are hungry for truth and they just know that there is something more and when they experience Orthodoxy their spirit is refreshed and confirms with in them that It's The Truth.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I just want to add that there were / are still people (Yes even in 2019) who have never even heard of Eastern Orthodoxy and think that their only options are The Roman Catholic Church, The Baptist Church down the street, The non Denominational Evangelical Church down the street etc.

So it's more out of ignorance and not knowing about it than it is them actively and purposely rejecting and fighting against Orthodox Christianity.

I've said it before but now that we have the internet and the information is freely available and more accessible I believe that we are going to start to see record numbers of both Evangelicals / Protestants and Roman Catholics become Orthodox Christians. People are hungry for truth and they just know that there is something more and when they experience Orthodoxy their spirit is refreshed and confirms with in them that It's The Truth.

sure, my point was just that there is a difference between a 4th century Arian whose parents were Orthodox and who knew of the debates, and a 20th century Mennonite whose heterodoxy goes back centuries who has no clue.

 

[archer75]

The short answer is no, they are not martyrs and they are not in heaven. We are forbidden from visiting their graves and especially from venerating them - we pray for their salvation. They aren't considered saints with a small 's', let alone a capital.

I thought the Orthodox position was that the full "list" of S/saints is known to God alone (at least for now).

 

[ArmyMatt]

I thought the Orthodox position was that the full "list" of S/saints is known to God alone (at least for now).

yep, that's what we will sing on the Feast of All Saints

 

[Protomartyr Alban]

I didn't say we shouldn't go to non-Orthodox graves of relatives to pray for them and pay our respects - I said that the teaching of the Church is that we can't consider those murdered for Christ outside of the Church as martyrs because they don't truly die for Christ, and as such we can't go to their graves to venerate them and ask their prayers.