How does one worship without Tradition?

[HTacianas]

The prescribed form of Christian worship is the Liturgy. It has been since the beginning. But the Liturgy is, much like the Nicene Creed, not found in the bible. I suppose we could count the Revelation as containing the Liturgy, but is not the source of it.

 

[Tree of Life]

The prescribed form of Christian worship is the Liturgy. It has been since the beginning. But the Liturgy is, much like the Nicene Creed, not found in the bible. I suppose we could count the Revelation as containing the Liturgy, but is not the source of it.

Your OP is full of assumptions that you've not argued for.

First, to answer your question - we cannot worship without tradition. Our worship, practice, and interpretation of Scripture is always informed by some tradition.

But to say that an early, non-Biblical tradition is "prescribed" already assumes what you're trying to prove. Why should early liturgical practices be absolutely normative? Sure, they may be very interesting and helpful. But so long as they are the best attempts of men to worship God according to his word and not strictly found in God's word alone, they are not absolutely normative.

Good protestants do not reject all tradition. We rely upon tradition. We simply do not believe that tradition is infallible.

 

[Lost4words]

Jesus said, "Do this in memory of me". We do. The "Mass" is in remembrance of Jesus, His teachings, His sacrifice.

 

[Dave L]

I worship all day long. Continually giving thanks and praying under my breath. It's great to be out in nature doing the same admiring the works of God.

 

[dzheremi]

You don't. This is part of the reason why worship in non-liturgical traditions looks like secular rock concerts, motivational speeches, and such. There are only so many forms that gathering a body of people can take, and without some kind of liturgy to follow, it seems like people fall back on one of these other forms. But they're not worship just because you're gathering to talk about Jesus or read from the Bible. There are plenty of secular and atheistic/agnostic academic conferences these days that do the same.

 

[Tree of Life]

You don't. This is part of the reason why worship in non-liturgical traditions looks like secular rock concerts, motivational speeches, and such. There are only so many forms that gathering a body of people can take, and without some kind of liturgy to follow, it seems like people fall back on one of these other forms. But they're not worship just because you're gathering to talk about Jesus or read from the Bible. There are plenty of secular and atheistic/agnostic academic conferences these days that do the same.

I'm not part of a tradition that is non-liturgical. But on what grounds do you say that your tradition's liturgy is superior to mine?

 

[dzheremi]

I didn't. The question was "How does one worship without a liturgy?", not "Which liturgy is superior?"

 

[Ken Rank]

The prescribed form of Christian worship is the Liturgy. It has been since the beginning. But the Liturgy is, much like the Nicene Creed, not found in the bible. I suppose we could count the Revelation as containing the Liturgy, but is not the source of it.

I recoil (a little ) when I see folks use the word "worship" this way. I understand that culturally, the time of praise and prayer is called worship. However, the reality is that the Hebrew word for worship is dealing more with submission. It is the word shachah, and it means, "to bend, to bow, to prostrate oneself." These are things we do during prayer and praise, but they are also things we do before one we are submitted to. And thus worship also becomes everything we do because of our submission to the one we bowed before. Obedience... is act of submission and thus part of worship.

 

[akaDaScribe]

The prescribed form of Christian worship is the Liturgy. It has been since the beginning. But the Liturgy is, much like the Nicene Creed, not found in the bible. I suppose we could count the Revelation as containing the Liturgy, but is not the source of it.

John 4
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

 

[Dave-W]

The prescribed form of Christian worship is the Liturgy. It has been since the beginning. But the Liturgy is, much like the Nicene Creed, not found in the bible.

Actually, if you know what you are looking for, bits and pieces appear all over the place. But they are NOT from "christian" liturgy; they are from first century Jewish synagogue liturgy.

Even the Lords Prayer aka the Our Father is clearly tied to the Kaddish and the Alenu prayers. Both our Lord's and Paul's use of the phrase "fruit of the vine" comes from the standard liturgical blessing over wine and grape juice.

 

[Albion]

The prescribed form of Christian worship is the Liturgy. It has been since the beginning. But the Liturgy is, much like the Nicene Creed, not found in the bible. I suppose we could count the Revelation as containing the Liturgy, but is not the source of it.

Has someone said that it IS found intact somewhere in Scripture?

Whats more, the so-called "prescribed" form of worship has been changed many times throughout Christian history.

 

[Dave-W]

I recoil (a little ) when I see folks use the word "worship" this way. I understand that culturally, the time of praise and prayer is called worship.

And I would submit that it is a misuse of the term.

It is way too narrow.

 

[paul1149]

Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, yet you Jews say that the place to worship is in Jerusalem.”
Jesus told her, “Believe Me, woman, an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
You Samaritans worship what you do not know. We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews.
But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him.
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” -John 4:20-24​

This is one of my favorite interchanges in the Bible. The woman is essentially asking which tradition is correct. Samaria had started off Jewish, but quickly established its own worship centers rather than travelling to Jerusalem. It went downhill from there, but still the Samaritans clung to their tradition.

Look carefully at Jesus' answer. He doesn't say Jerusalem is the correct place to worship. He doesn't even say that either place would be an acceptable place to worship. Instead, He says the improbable - that NEITHER place will be suitable for worship. In one breath He offends both Jews and Samaritans, and any traditionalist who might follow in their footsteps. He does this to make a point - a new kind of worship is coming, one that is not dependent on time or place or protocol. It is dependent only on spirit and truth, and it is available to all at any time or place. You can worship in church, you can worship while you're cleaning toilets. Worship is now a matter of the heart that has been circumcised by the love of God in Christ Jesus.

But still we cling to our traditions. I have seen charismatic churches no less liturgical than the high church. There is a certain time to be prayed for, a time to be slain in the spirit, etc. So I'm not singling out one group or the other. It is the human condition that we like religious strictures around us. But that is not what Jesus is saying here.

 

[Albion]

Actually, if you know what you are looking for, bits and pieces appear all over the place. But they are NOT from "christian" liturgy; they are from first century Jewish synagogue liturgy.

But it is true that anyone could consult those bits and pieces IN SCRIPTURE and, using them, basically create the liturgy as it is used in some churches.

 

[Ken Rank]

And I would submit that it is a misuse of the term.

It is way too narrow.

Words evolve. I was once asked to speak at a conference and the topic was worship. My definition was very narrow... because everyone else used "worship" as singing and playing an instrument, prayer or dance... I didn't want to speak because I didn't sing or play, so I turned it down. They asked me 3 times and the last time I told them I would pray about it over Shabbat. So, just before sundown I got on the treadmill (which I often do knowing I don't do much the next day) and I think I walked for 45 seconds when it hit me... the bending and bowing, the picture of submission... Shachah (worship) was ALSO obeying, taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, ministering... everything we do because we are submitted to Him, is part of our worship. I called them back a minute later (shocking them) and said yes. And I got to share these thoughts (in far more detail) to a few hundred down in Orlando that summer. In fact, it was 5 years ago this coming weekend.

 

[Dave-W]

But it is true that anyone could consult those bits and pieces IN SCRIPTURE and, using them, basically create the liturgy as it is used in some churches.

Which certainly has been done.

One they seem to miss as a whole: Acts 20.7. "First day of the week" has erroneously been understood as Sunday morning rather than Saturday after sundown. This was a Havdalah service, observing the separation of the Sabbath from the 6 days of work.

 

[Albion]

Which certainly has been done.

One they seem to miss as a whole: Acts 20.7. "First day of the week" has erroneously been understood as Sunday morning rather than Saturday after sundown. This was a Havdalah service, observing the separation of the Sabbath from the 6 days of work.

Oh, well, I thought we were speaking of the liturgy itself and where its structure comes from. Weren't we?

 

[Dave-W]

Words evolve.

As do languages.

But when dealing with biblical terms like "worship," we cannot let that happen lest we drift farther and farther away from the original intent.

 

[Dave-W]

Oh, well, I thought we were speaking of the liturgy itself and where its structure comes from. Weren't we?

Timing is part of the structure.

 

[Greg J.]

The prescribed form of Christian worship is the Liturgy. It has been since the beginning. But the Liturgy is, much like the Nicene Creed, not found in the bible. I suppose we could count the Revelation as containing the Liturgy, but is not the source of it.

Look in Scripture at some of the illustrations of people worshiping Jesus (e.g., Matthew 2:11, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Matthew 28:17, John 9:38). You can look in the OT, too, but must discern between the acts carried out physically vs. the acts done from the heart.

“ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’” (Matthew 15:8-9, 1984 NIV)

Worship itself has nothing to do with liturgy. Worship is always about God himself. It has a person's focus on God, and "fully" worshiping has your heart, mind, soul, and body focused on God. Liturgy is an opportunity to worship communally (God loves communal worship). Every person must check themselves to make sure they're not worshiping the liturgy, one's church, any person dead or alive, or anything else in all creation other than God himself. Do not worship any created thing, only the One and only that was not created.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. (John 4:23, 1984 NIV)