How does one lose a free gift?

[BNR32FAN]

Who was bearing no fruit to begin with? Judas who was an unbeliever.


Actually it is relevant as the quote is about the New Covenant.


Yes as I stated comparing Israel to the Gentiles. Israel was hardened and the Gentiles at a later time, after the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled, will be again but "all Israel will be saved." He is not speaking of individual believers.

And notice, God is doing the choosing here.

Judas was not present during this conversation. Only the faithful 11 were present. Judas had already left to betray Jesus. I believe Judas did produce fruit. This is why none of the apostles understood who Jesus was referring to when He said one of you will betray me. None of the apostles expected Judas as the betrayer because he had worked right beside them for over 2 years. Some believe Judas healed the sick and cast out demons along with the other 11 apostles.

“And he called unto him his twelve disciples, and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of disease and all manner of sickness. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphæus, and Thaddæus; Simon the Cananæan, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons: freely ye received, freely give.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:1-8‬

So it is uncertain for sure if Judas actually never produced any fruit although I think it is unlikely that he didn’t.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually it is relevant as the quote is about the New Covenant.

But this time has not come to pass yet. The full number of Gentiles has not come to Christ so Israel remains blinded by God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And notice, God is doing the choosing here.

Yes but God knows who will be victorious and endure to the end.

 

[EmSw]

What do you think Jesus spoke of if not the very death and resurrection He predicted multiple times in the Gospels?

I'm surely not going to add to what He said. It is the same 'blood' of which He spoke elsewhere.

John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Nothing about any death, burial, and resurrection in these verses.

Now redleg, since you believe it is His physical blood, I have to ask, have you ever drunk His physical blood? Well, have you?

If you haven't, you have no life in you. You do not have eternal life. Jesus will not raise you up at the last day. You do not dwell in Him, and He doesn't dwell in you.

Now, tell me about His physical blood at the last supper.

 

[redleghunter]

Ok let’s take a closer look to verses 1-10.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine (disciples included) that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone (disciples included) who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

Jesus uses the word “you” 15 times while speaking to His 11 faithful apostles about this matter. He was not saying this indicating that this only applies to someone else.

Our God is not one of confusion. In the same Gospel according to John the sheep never perish, hear His voice and follow Him. Very concrete. The ones who are not His sheep 'do not believe.' Again, very concrete.

How can we have an assurance of 'never perish' with a 'gathered into a pile to be burned?' You create a contradiction of Jesus' very own words.

John 10: NASB
14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
[...]

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

 

[EmSw]

How do words remove sin?

I don't know if I really need to address this. But I will address your question.

Since Jesus is the Word, and His Word is truth, we must listen and heed what He says. He says to repent for the remission of sins. In fact, this is what He told His disciples to tell the world.

Repent for the remission of sins are His words of truth. Will you agree with this? If you agree with this, then His 'words' of truth give us remission of sins.

Now, if you will just search and find out what 'remission' is. Once you find out, you have your answer.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes but God knows who will be victorious and endure to the end.

Of course because He predestined them and then called them before they did anything at all. Of course God's elect will be preserved and prevail in faith.

Romans 8: NASB

29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

 

[redleghunter]

I don't know if I really need to address this. But I will address your question.

Since Jesus is the Word, and His Word is truth, we must listen and heed what He says. He says to repent for the remission of sins. In fact, this is what He told His disciples to tell the world.

Repent for the remission of sins are His words of truth. Will you agree with this? If you agree with this, then His 'words' of truth give us remission of sins.

Now, if you will just search and find out what 'remission' is. Once you find out, you have your answer.

But Jesus said it was His Blood which does this.

 

[redleghunter]

DP

 

[EmSw]

But Jesus said it was His Blood which does this.

If you have drunk His physical blood, I will agree with you.

 

[redleghunter]

If you have drunk His physical blood, I will agree with you.

1 John 1:7

Was he wrong in writing that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Our God is not one of confusion. In the same Gospel according to John the sheep never perish, hear His voice and follow Him. Very concrete. The ones who are not His sheep 'do not believe.' Again, very concrete.

How can we have an assurance of 'never perish' with a 'gathered into a pile to be burned?' You create a contradiction of Jesus' very own words.

John 10: NASB
14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
[...]

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

It’s easy you are not understanding John 10:27 correctly. His sheep hear and follow. Anyone who does not hear and follow is not one of His sheep. Hear and follow are meant in the present tense not something we’ve done in the past.

“And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬

“And everyone will hate you because you are my followers. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:13‬

“And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:22‬

“Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:12-14‬

“I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us. Let all who are spiritually mature agree on these things. If you disagree on some point, I believe God will make it plain to you. But we must hold on to the progress we have already made.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:12-16‬

 

[EmSw]

1 John 1:7

Was he wrong in writing that?

If you knew what blood signified, you wouldn't be having these doubts.

 

[redleghunter]

It’s easy you are not understanding John 10:27 correctly. His sheep hear and follow. Anyone who does not hear and follow is not one of His sheep. Hear and follow are meant in the present tense not something we’ve done in the past.

Yet NEVER perish.

 

[redleghunter]

If you knew what blood signified, you wouldn't be having these doubts.

Please let me know what the actual shed blood of Christ signified. Then we will take a tour of what His apostles said .

 

[PeaceByJesus]

redleghunter said: ↑
It’s a legitimate question. What is your canon?

Not for this thread.

Rather, of-course telling us what your canon of wholly inspired books consists of is warranted in this thread, for you are debating what Christ taught, and thus just what your authoritative sources are for determining this must be understood.

Also, you are on Christian forums, in a Christians-only section, which means members are not to disagree on the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, but you appear to do so.

Which is part of another problem, for it appears you subscribe to the nonsense that Paul and perhaps Peter preached a contradictory different gospel than Christ, though all of them preached forgiveness of sins and being born of the Spirit through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, who was sent by the Father to give Himself a ransom for sinners, (Mark 10:45) to suffer and die for us and rise again. (Mark 10:45; Luke 24:46,47; Acts 10:47; 13:23-39; 20:24; 26:18)

As for OSAS, I believe I have provided a much better case against it in debates with brethren here, one of which was recent , and could also provide a strong case for it, (though not as compelling to me as against it), God willing, but you are in a aberrant league all by yourself.

Thus the least you can do is state what your canon of wholly inspired books consists of.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

This doesn't answer my request for you to find where we are to keep the commandments 'perfectly'. Do you play in left field much?

That depends on what is meant by perfectly, but "as many as are of the works of the law [as a system of salvation] are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10; cf. Deut. 27:26)

 

[EmSw]

Please let me know what the actual shed blood of Christ signified. Then we will take a tour of what His apostles said .

Whatever it signifies, unless you drink it, you have no life in you.

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Now, let's see what Strong's says about 'drink'.

figuratively, to receive into the soul what serves to refresh strengthen, nourish it unto life eternal

Everyone with half a brain, knows we are not to drink His physical blood. Do you agree?

Strong's says it is what is received into the soul. No one receives physical blood into his soul, if he should drink it. Strong's also says it nourishes the soul unto eternal life.

First, I would like to present the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4.

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, give me to drink.
8 (for his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, how is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, if thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Here, Jesus wasn't talking about physical drinking. Many today, like the woman, have their minds only on physical things. Jesus was speaking of spiritual drinking, that is, living water. This water springs up into everlasting life. Notice, those who drink the living water, and those who drink His blood have life.

Like the water, Jesus is not speaking of 'physical' blood in John 6:53, nor at the last supper. As Strong's says, to drink spiritually is to receive into the soul that which serves to nourishes unto eternal life.

What do you think nourishes unto eternal life? All we have to do is look to Jesus and He will tell us.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Straight from the Savior's lips, He tells us the words He speaks are spirit and they are life. Then we have Peter agreeing with the Savior. What is important to note, is that every word He speaks is life. Every word He speaks it the Truth, as Jesus Himself says He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

From this, we know His blood and living waters denote the Truth. It is those who drink, that is, have knowledge of the Truth. Man's nourishment or sustenance then is not from natural food and drink, but from spiritual food and drink.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Notice it says 'every' word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Therefore, when Jesus says, if we wish to enter life, keep the commandments', you can stake your soul on the truth of this.

 

[EmSw]

Rather, of-course telling us what your canon of wholly inspired books consists of is warranted in this thread, for you are debating what Christ taught, and thus just what your authoritative sources are for determining this must be understood.

It's quite simple.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Is this simple enough to be understood? Is there a higher authority?

Also, you are on Christian forums, in a Christians-only section, which means members are not to disagree on the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, but you appear to do so.

Can a man be saved by the words of Jesus only? Or, is it Jesus plus something else?

Which is part of another problem, for it appears you subscribe to the nonsense that Paul and perhaps Peter preached a contradictory different gospel than Christ, though all of them preached forgiveness of sins and being born of the Spirit through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, who was sent by the Father to give Himself a ransom for sinners, (Mark 10:45) to suffer and die for us and rise again. (Mark 10:45; Luke 24:46,47; Acts 10:47; 13:23-39; 20:24; 26:18)

Again, can a man be saved only using the words of Jesus?

As for OSAS, I believe I have provided a much better case against it in debates with brethren here, one of which was recent , and could also provide a strong case for it, (though not as compelling to me as against it), God willing, but you are in a aberrant league all by yourself.

A man who follows and obeys Jesus is never alone. Or should I provide you with the words of Jesus on this?

Thus the least you can do is state what your canon of wholly inspired books consists of.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Does this 'canon' satisfy you? If not, then maybe you'll be convinced by this -

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[EmSw]

That depends on what is meant by perfectly, but "as many as are of the works of the law [as a system of salvation] are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10; cf. Deut. 27:26)

Sounds like the curse solely depends upon man.

No one is under a curse using the law as a system of salvation. In fact, God says they are blessed.

Psalm 94:12
Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O Lord, and teachest him out of thy law;

Psalm 119:1
Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.