How does one lose a free gift?

[Danthemailman]

I never said they were sinless; I said they were blameless. What does blameless mean to you?

Without blame, faultless.

 

[redleghunter]

I don’t see the relevance of them receiving the Holy Spirit pertaining to them having eternal security. Just because a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they lose their free will and cannot disobey or disregard the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So this is speculation. Is there a teaching in the NT where language is used that a child of God or one in the Beloved revert back to a son of wrath.

In John 10 Jesus says that the Father gives Him the sheep and the sheep hear His Voice and none will perish or be plucked.

That’s a concrete teaching.

And this to your quote:

1 Peter 1: NASB

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which isimperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He said they were already clean.

He was also speaking to Jews and right before being turned over for execution. Meaning being a son of Abraham as the Jews believed they all were, was not enough. One must be in Him and those not are cut off.

I really don’t see the relevance of the apostles being a Jew. The point is Jesus told them to abide in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from the vine (cut off from Jesus) cast away to wither, and be thrown into the fire. The Greek word bállō used for cast means to throw away carelessly or without regard often violently or intensely. Nothing about this can result in salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So this is speculation. Is there a teaching in the NT where language is used that a child of God or one in the Beloved revert back to a son of wrath.

In John 10 Jesus says that the Father gives Him the sheep and the sheep hear His Voice and none will perish or be plucked.

That’s a concrete teaching.

And this to your quote:

1 Peter 1: NASB

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which isimperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John10:27 you left out an extremely important word. They FOLLOW. Was that intentional or accidental?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're overlooking the principle he's using, a principle which is a common theme in 1John.

But let me ask you. Why is it "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us"? Why is that?

I don’t know to be honest. I don’t know the particulars about these anticrists. But I still have to ask why did Jesus say to His faithful 11 apostles abide in Me if they cannot turn away from Him and cannot lose their salvation? There is no doubt that they believed and that they were faithful.

 

[bcbsr]

I don’t know to be honest. I don’t know the particulars about these anticrists. But I still have to ask why did Jesus say to His faithful 11 apostles abide in Me if they cannot turn away from Him and cannot lose their salvation? There is no doubt that they believed and that they were faithful.

I understand. You can't accept it because the implications conflict with you assumption.

As for your question, I've already answered it in this thread. See post #95

 

[redleghunter]

I really don’t see the relevance of the apostles being a Jew. The point is Jesus told them to abide in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from the vine (cut off from Jesus) cast away to wither, and be thrown into the fire. The Greek word bállō used for cast means to throw away carelessly or without regard often violently or intensely. Nothing about this can result in salvation.

Nothing indicates the branches were ever in the Vine.

The other place in the NT where we see the same descriptor is with Paul in Romans 9-11 and this regarded to Israel being cut off in order to bring in the wild branch the Gentiles.

John10:27 you left out an extremely important word. They FOLLOW. Was that intentional or accidental?

Not at all. It's part of the package deal:

Ezekiel 36: NASB
24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

I guess the question you have to answer for yourself is why would the Father give sheep to Christ which will never perish but not listen to Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I understand. You can't accept it because the implications conflict with you assumption.

As for your question, I've already answered it in this thread. See post #95

I read post 95 and I agree but you have to realize that faith will undoubtedly produce fruit. If a person does not produce fruit (good works) if given the opportunity then that person does not have faith. Inevitably a person must produce fruit if given the opportunity otherwise they do not have faith. It is not the works that saves a person it is the faith that saves them.

 

[EmSw]

Which words? These?

Matthew 26: NASB

27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Ahem...these words -

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Why do you not believe it is His word which cleans you?

 

[redleghunter]

I don’t know to be honest. I don’t know the particulars about these anticrists. But I still have to ask why did Jesus say to His faithful 11 apostles abide in Me if they cannot turn away from Him and cannot lose their salvation? There is no doubt that they believed and that they were faithful.

The entire purpose of the dialogue on the Vine and branches is for the Apostles to know what genuine faith is as opposed to unbelief. No one who is not in Christ will produce fruit because they don't belong to Him. Nowhere in the dialogue does Jesus say "to remain in Me after being in Me."

It's rather more concrete. One is either in Christ or not. The ones in Christ, His true disciples produce fruit. He is speaking of genuine salvation as opposed to imposters like Judas who Jesus just before leaving the Upper Room dismissed.

Notice verse 11:

“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."

Does not sound like a warning does it? It was to bring them joy not constant nail biting. And it is a beautiful passage to explore especially the part about answered prayer and bearing fruit for Christ. Jesus is laying out what it means to be in a Covenant with Him. This is supposed to beautiful, comforting and encouraging showing that all we have in Him, through Him and with Him.

In Him
Through Him
With Him

Yet behind every rock someone wants to find doubt of Gods Sovereign Grace thus robbing Him of His Glory.

 

[EmSw]

No but He did demonstrate that the next day He would shed His Blood.

Really? Jesus didn't say 'My blood the next day'. Funny how you want to add to what Jesus said. Besides, did His disciples drink the blood which was shed the next day?

Do you want to read it again?

Matthew 26
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

What is so hard about understanding the disciples drank in the upper room. And Jesus said 'this is My blood'. I love it when Jesus' actual words of truth dispel man's self-made doctrines.

 

[redleghunter]

If a person does not produce fruit (good works) if given the opportunity then that person does not have faith.

The Covenantal Faith will produce fruit because the root is Christ.

Inevitably a person must produce fruit if given the opportunity otherwise they do not have faith.

Actually Jesus did not say that but it was more concrete. One either does or does not. One is either in Christ or is not.

It is not the works that saves a person it is the faith that saves them.

Indeed. And even this faith we have is by His Grace.

And we have a true test of faith in bearing fruit. The men and women of faith noted in Hebrews 11 were tested, were tenacious, were tortured, most executed etc. Yet they all had one thing in common, they believed God would fulfill His promises.

 

[redleghunter]

Really? Jesus didn't say 'My blood the next day'. Funny how you want to add to what Jesus said. Besides, did His disciples drink the blood which was shed the next day?

Do you want to read it again?

Matthew 26
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

What is so hard about understanding the disciples drank in the upper room. And Jesus said 'this is My blood'. I love it when Jesus' actual words of truth dispel man's self-made doctrines.

What do you think Jesus spoke of if not the very death and resurrection He predicted multiple times in the Gospels?

 

[redleghunter]

Ahem...these words -

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Why do you not believe it is His word which cleans you?

How do words remove sin?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nothing indicates the branches were ever in the Vine.

The other place in the NT where we see the same descriptor is with Paul in Romans 9-11 and this regarded to Israel being cut off in order to bring in the wild branch the Gentiles.

Not at all. It's part of the package deal:

Ezekiel 36: NASB
24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

I guess the question you have to answer for yourself is why would the Father give sheep to Christ which will never perish but not listen to Him.

There is a clear indication that the branches were in the vine in verse 2 my friend.

“He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2

Your quote of Ezekiel 36 is irrelevant because at this current time Israel is blinded by God until the full number of Gentiles has come to Christ. Yes God says He will bring them back but not yet. Romans 11 has much to say on this subject.

“Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:19-24‬

 

[eleos1954]

I believed in OSAS before, and then got into the teaching that you can lose it, but now I am starting to lean back to OSAS and the ones who lost it never believed or had faith to begin with. So how is this possible? If one was in the maybe they believe category then they didn't believe. There is no maybe, its either they believe fully or they don't.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

So what did one do to lose it? Fall away from the faith, but they never had faith to begin with did they?

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[BNR32FAN]

The entire purpose of the dialogue on the Vine and branches is for the Apostles to know what genuine faith is as opposed to unbelief. No one who is not in Christ will produce fruit because they don't belong to Him. Nowhere in the dialogue does Jesus say "to remain in Me after being in Me."

It's rather more concrete. One is either in Christ or not. The ones in Christ, His true disciples produce fruit. He is speaking of genuine salvation as opposed to imposters like Judas who Jesus just before leaving the Upper Room dismissed.

Notice verse 11:

“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."

Does not sound like a warning does it? It was to bring them joy not constant nail biting. And it is a beautiful passage to explore especially the part about answered prayer and bearing fruit for Christ. Jesus is laying out what it means to be in a Covenant with Him. This is supposed to beautiful, comforting and encouraging showing that all we have in Him, through Him and with Him.

In Him
Through Him
With Him

Yet behind every rock someone wants to find doubt of Gods Sovereign Grace thus robbing Him of His Glory.

Ok let’s take a closer look to verses 1-10.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine (disciples included) that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone (disciples included) who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

Jesus uses the word “you” 15 times while speaking to His 11 faithful apostles about this matter. He was not saying this indicating that this only applies to someone else.

 

[redleghunter]

There is a clear indication that the branches were in the vine in verse 2 my friend.

“He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2

Who was bearing no fruit to begin with? Judas who was an unbeliever.

Your quote of Ezekiel 36 is irrelevant because at this current time Israel is blinded by God until the full number of Gentiles has come to Christ. Yes God says He will bring them back but not yet. Romans 11 has much to say on this subject.

Actually it is relevant as the quote is about the New Covenant.

“Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:19-24‬

Yes as I stated comparing Israel to the Gentiles. Israel was hardened and the Gentiles at a later time, after the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled, will be again but "all Israel will be saved." He is not speaking of individual believers.

And notice, God is doing the choosing here.

 

[EmSw]

The gospel of the kingdom was not about works salvation, but was about the “good news” of the kingdom of heaven is at hand, as I already pointed out to you in post #82.

Now explain to me the gospel that Paul preached and is not according to man and came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)

Also, tell me what YOU believe the gospel IS that Paul preached and also what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

[Staff edit]. Jesus message was definitely about works. He never once said 'faith alone' or 'grace alone'...NEVER!

Jesus' Gospel was not about His death, burial, and resurrection.

Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. 'Kingdom' is listed 55 times in Matthew alone. Why not have a look? To know His Gospel is to know about His Kingdom.

Let me give just one example. Then tell us if His death, burial, and resurrection has anything to do with what Jesus preached.

Matthew 25
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now we have the true message of the Gospel of the Kingdom. It definitely flies in the face of 'faith alone'. Go ahead, read about the Kingdom Jesus preached. You will never read about any death, burial, and resurrection in any message He gave about the Kingdom.

Jesus' Gospel is the Gospel I believe.

 

[EmSw]

Without blame, faultless.

So, what fault do you find with Zachariah and Elizabeth?