How does God recognize a marriage if its not a sacred sacrament?

[Francis Drake]

We were discussing Apostolic succession.
It's history .... History is the same for both Catholics and Protestants.

You may have learned it at a Nazarene church, but its not scriptural, just religious hocus pocus to control the gullible sheep.

 

[Not David]

So would Martin Luther have claim to Apostolic Succession since he was a priest and anointed in accordance with that tradition?

Was he a priest before or after being excommunicated?

 

[GodsGrace101]

So would Martin Luther have claim to Apostolic Succession since he was a priest and anointed in accordance with that tradition?

The Orthodox broke it in 1,000 and Luther did too.

 

[Not David]

The Orthodox broke it in 1,000 and Luther did too.

The Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to have Apostolic Succession.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You may have learned it at a Nazarene church, but its not scriptural, just religious hocus pocus to control the gullible sheep.

How could something that happened in the year 1,000 and
1,500 be in the Bible?
However, scripture does speak to this.
On phone right now..
Tomorrow.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to have Apostolic Succession.

You may be right....!

 

[Chris V++]

The Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to have Apostolic Succession.

If the Catholic church excommunicated the Orthodox church, but still considers them to have Apostolic Succession, wouldn't it follow that the excommunicated Protestants also have Apostolic Succession? In a way, wern't the Orthodox the first protestants from the Catholic perspective?

 

[usexpat97]

Marriage is a three-way covenant. Sorry to say, though, the priest/pastor/JP/TV game show host is not one of those three parties. Although if the couple were not walking with God at the time of the wedding, it's possible it is a two-way covenant. After all, God was not invited to the wedding. Paul describes what to do in that instance in 1 Cor 7.

Either way you slice it, though, you two made a covenant, and you have a judge who sees that you two made a covenant.

 

[Paidiske]

In the Christian west, even pre-schism, marriage was considered to be valid because of the free consent of both parties; the blessing of the priest was nice-to-have but not essential to the sacrament (this is the Catholic position even today; the couple themselves are the ministers of the sacrament of marriage).

Of course, most Protestants don't consider marriage a sacrament, so for us the question doesn't arise in quite that way.

 

[Not David]

If the Catholic church excommunicated the Orthodox church, but still considers them to have Apostolic Succession, wouldn't it follow that the excommunicated Protestants also have Apostolic Succession? In a way, wern't the Orthodox the first protestants from the Catholic perspective?

The Orthodox excommunicated the Catholics. They have 4 of the original patriarchs, so tell me which one is the one who rebelled?

 

[Francis Drake]

How could something that happened in the year 1,000 and
1,500 be in the Bible?
However, scripture does speak to this.
On phone right now..
Tomorrow.

If the notion of apostolic is truly scriptural, then its origin should be found in scripture.
Unfortunately for you, apostolic succession is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is of course well founded in religious tradition, which as Jesus pointed out, rendered the word of God to no effect.

 

[Francis Drake]

But how can a pastor bless a marriage if he does not have the anointing of a priest?

According to scripture, we are all kings and priests. Not that we need priests to make a marriage.

As a matter of fact, as an ordinary believer, I was asked by a friend to conduct his marriage ceremony, which after a short consideration I agreed.
He still had to get the marriage legally certificated by the local authority, not that the certificate, or my officiating the ceremony would have made a jot of difference to the established fact of marriage before the Lord.

 

[Chris V++]

The Orthodox excommunicated the Catholics. They have 4 of the original patriarchs, so tell me which one is the one who rebelled?

Great question! My understanding is the Orthodox never revoked the excommunication.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If the notion of apostolic is truly scriptural, then its origin should be found in scripture.
Unfortunately for you, apostolic succession is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is of course well founded in religious tradition, which as Jesus pointed out, rendered the word of God to no effect.

Why is it unfortunate for me?
You're the one who refutes history.
How does one refute history?

Jesus said religious tradition rendered God's word of no effect? Didn't Jesus obey religious tradition? Can you tell me one law He disobeyed and broke His Jewish Tradition? I can't think of any.

What Jesus DID DO was to preach against hypocricy...
washing of the outside of the body, but not the inside.
He corrected some traditions, such as giving a certificate of divorce. But, of course, He did not break any laws.
Mark 7:6-8

In 1 Corinthians 11:2, Paul plainly states that Tradition is a good quality to have.
2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

However, FD, we are not discussing tradition here, to which you have veered off.

We're discussing history.
If you wish not to be concerned with history, that is your prerogative.

Jesus taught the Apostles, the Apostles taught others, such as Ignatius, those taught others, and so on and so on. We can attribute to the Early Church Fathers the faith we enjoy today. Tertullian, Iraneaus and others certainly kept the Traditions started by the Apostles, as the original Apostles were exhorted to do.
1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 Peter 5:1-3

and other verses.
But we derail this thread about marriage.

Is marriage not a tradition?
Should we abolish this tradition too?

 

[GodsGrace101]

The Orthodox excommunicated the Catholics. They have 4 of the original patriarchs, so tell me which one is the one who rebelled?

I'd say that the Orthodox look more like the original church...A bishop for each location. In the 3 top locations, which I can't remember right now, one was Rome (maybe Constantinople and Alexandria) the bishop was called the Pope. When this title decided to be given only to the bishop of Rome and would make him the supreme ruler, the schism ocurred - denying papal authority over all bishops.

It does seem to me that the Catholic church changed the paradigm.

 

[FireDragon76]

Marriage is not a sacrament in my religious tradition. It's a rite of blessing on what is ultimately a civil contract or agreement, and it is not strictly necessary. People that are married outside the Church are just as married as any other people.

God's blessings are not limited to the rites of the Church, but are generally available to all people, according to God's providence.

 

[GodsGrace101]

A hard question for Protestants and "Bible only Christians" to answer:
If Marriage is considered Sacred and Blessed by God, then how does God recognize a marriage if its not a sacrament?
A Sacrament is defined as channeling of Gods grace. Nowadays, court marriages are becoming more common. This makes marriage look less serious. And there are also drive-through Weddings, like the ones in Las Vegas that makes the bond of marriage look as sacred as McDonalds.
In Mark 10, Jesus said that God bonds marriage together and it is considers sacred, not just a fancy rite of a man and a women coming together.
The Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Christian Church considers marriage to be a holy bond put together by God between man and a woman.
In Protestant marriages, the pastor takes over the role of the priest in the marriage. But how can a pastor bless a marriage if he does not have the anointing of a priest?

In a marriage the two getting married are the ministers of that marriage. The priest or pastor is there as a witness only.

Christ administers all sacraments. In a marriage those that count toward that marriage are the two persons and Jesus. Jesus is the one administering the ceremony.

So, whoever is functioning as minister, or witness, does not have importance as to whether or not the marriage is valid.

It is, however a community affair, and a community recognized pastor should officiate. Marriage is a shared social blessing.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Marriage is not a sacrament in my religious tradition. It's a rite of blessing on what is ultimately a civil contract or agreement, and it is not strictly necessary. People that are married outside the Church are just as married as any other people.

God's blessings are not limited to the rites of the Church, but are generally available to all people, according to God's providence.

This idea has confused me.

If God INSTITUTED marriage, how could it have any validity if God is not present at the ceremony?

If two are civilly married, they're married in the eyes of the law...what about in the eyes of God??

 

[FireDragon76]

This idea has confused me.

If God INSTITUTED marriage, how could it have any validity if God is not present at the ceremony?

If two are civilly married, they're married in the eyes of the law...what about in the eyes of God??

God ordains civil governments for the good ordering of society, including for such things as registering marriages.

The minister or church community does not solemnize marriage, the couple do that themselves. The religious community or judge are merely the witnesses.

 

[GodsGrace101]

God ordains civil governments for the good ordering of society, including for such things as registering marriages.

The minister or church community does not solemnize marriage, the couple do that themselves. The religious community or judge are merely the witnesses.

Yes. I'm very on the fence about this.
Personally, I wouldn't feel married if using a civil ceremony. Since God instituted marriage, I'd want to be in a church.

Following your way of thinking (which is not unique) then SSMs are indeed valid since God need not be present.

The idea sounds very secular to me and not spiritual.
In Jewish tradition is was also a communal celebration, and Jesus did come from that community.