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How does free will work with God?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by BigV, Feb 21, 2020.

  1. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    Let's say a person "A" wants to seriously injure or kill person "B" or persons "B", "C" and "D".

    Let's also assume that persons "B", "C" and/or "D" who have no desire and no will to be injured.

    In cases where a person "A" succeeds, as is often the case, unfortunately, whose free will does God honor? And how does God decide on these things? Hopefully those of you who have a personal relationship with God can help decipher this for the rest of us.
     
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  2. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    Sorry. I'm not scheduled to meet with God until next Thursday at 10:30 AM CST. Can this question wait until then? I'll ask him.
     
  3. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    God does not "honor" a person's free will. Free will simply exists. A person chooses to injure another person and injures him. No one wills themself to be injured or not to be injured. If someone realizes they are about to be injured they might will themself to get out of the way but that's about it.
     
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  4. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    I have a lot to learn. I thought God hears all prayers all at the same time, all the while recording my every sinful thought for the day of judgment. Silly me.
     
  5. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    So, basically it's as if God isn't even around to witness these things?
     
  6. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Of course God is around to witness it. Why would he not be?

    God said "thou shall not kill" but it doesn't stop a lot of people from killing.
     
  7. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    You have chosen a bad example, in my opinion. Because the very chapter where God talks to Moses about the 10 Commandments, with one of them being "Thou shalt not kill" also has God saying "Go and kill every man his brother, his neighbor and his friend". See Exodus 32:27.
     
  8. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    That's the difference between a murderer and an executioner. A murderer kills without lawful authority while an executioner kills with lawful authority.

    The State says "thou shall not kill" and if a person kills, the State puts them to death. Just like the State says "thou shall not kidnap" and if someone kidnaps another, the State takes them against their will and holds them.
     
  9. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    So God actually addressed this exact scenario in Leviticus 14:58-61. These are the relevant verses:

    58: If person A runs faster than person B and overpowers them by strength or weapon, person A's free will shall be honored.
    59: If person B runs faster than person A, person B's free will shall be honored.
    60: Considering the group scenario, if person A runs faster than even one of the other three (namely persons B, C, or D), then person A's free will shall be honored along with the two faster runners.
    61: If, on the other hand, persons B, C, and D each outrun A or, alternatively, stumble upon the mathematical truth that 3>1, then their free will shall be honored.

    Unfortunately this part of Leviticus is missing from most manuscripts. It seems that thousands of years ago the Hebrews realized that this is just common sense. Since not even the small children were confused about such simple truths they saw no need to continue to copy the verses. This is unfortunate for you, but we simply can't blame the ancient Hebrews for failing to foresee the intellectual handicaps of certain 21st century individuals. Really no one could have predicted the current state of our race. :preach:
     
  10. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    Truth be told, this is exactly how I rule the world. And this is also the way my neighbor's dog runs the world too. A caveman can do this, it's that easy.
     
  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    There isn't such a thing as free will as people believe it to be, (Such as yourself) whereas, you believe that just because you decided to put on a red sock and a blue sock this morning, you have exorcised free will or that A kills B,C,and D he has exorcised free will.

    God gave mankind in the person of Adam DOMINION over the whole of His Creation, and within the confines of that Dominion resides the ability to make choices, (for those not understanding) (FREE WILL).

    Therefore the whole premise you have put forward, doesn't hold water.

    Besides all of that.

    The questions you ask about What if, Why doesn't God do this or that you can never come to the knowledge of the truth of the matter because first, you ask these things out of ignorance, being a natural man.

    1Cor. 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
  12. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    *Note to self: BigV thinks he rules the world*

    *Note to self: BigV thinks his neighbor's dog runs the world*

    *Inferential note to self: BigV thinks he is his neighbor's dog*

    The Hebrew children didn't have trouble either. Apparently you did. Of course I grant that the Hebrews weren't yet aware of Zeno's paradox. That could certainly trip you up. :D
     
  13. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    How would anyone know what is good?
     
  14. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    You forgot to add "...exactly how God(s) rule it".
    Being that I'm an Atheist, you would naturally assume sarcasm, unless you were trying to show your mental acumen.
     
  15. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    Indeed. Don't we all?
     
  16. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    That's really cool, I have never seen anyone use Verses of Scripture which do not appear in Scripture, I will have to try it myself some time when I can't make my point either.
     
  17. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    Sigh. You would use the Catholic translation of those verses. But it's all wrong. In the Lutheran translation of Leviticus 14:58 it states: If Edomite 1 runs faster than Edomite 2 and overpowers them by strength of instrument, Edomite 1's free will shall be honored.

    So, clearly those verses don't apply. The relevant verses come from Philemon 26: P.S. And know you that there is no longer slave nor master, but the free will of all shall be honored equally, though you may not see it.
     
  18. MrsFoundit

    MrsFoundit Well-Known Member

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    John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    Yes, God is not the ruler of this world.
     
  19. MrsFoundit

    MrsFoundit Well-Known Member

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    God is aware of all prayer, this does not mean God says "yes" to every request, prayer is not a means of getting ones own way.

    Sin causes a state of separation from God, yes God knows if you are separated from Him or not. God knows if you care about separation from from Him or not. This is far more significant than any "record keeping".
     
  20. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    I think this is just politics. Someone else must always be blamed.
     
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