How does Brexit fit in to Dispensationalist Eschatology?

[Francis Drake]

The Roman Empire is long gone.. Daniel's four kingdoms were (1) Babylon, (2) Media, (3) Persia, and (4) Greece.

This completely contradicts Daniel. Medo-Persia was a united kingdom. That's why it appears as 2 arms in the great image. The final kingdom was Rome and will still be Babylon disguised as Rome when Christ comes.
Look at all the regalia around the EU parliaments and you will see they constantly celebrate Babel! That's because the EU is a manifestation of Babel.

Daniel was writing about Antiochus IV. His empire wasn't that large if you look at a map. The Roman Empire that followed was much larger.

You completely miss the point that God addresses them as whole world empires, despite their parochial natures at that time. That's because they are empowered by the spirit of Antichrist which rules through the ages from these succeeding empires till the day Christ returns and destroys it.
Go away and read Daniel's description of the great image, and his interpretation of what it means. They are referred to as world empires

 

[summerville]

This completely contradicts Daniel. Medo-Persia was a united kingdom. That's why it appears as 2 arms in the great image. The final kingdom was Rome and will still be Babylon disguised as Rome when Christ comes.
Look at all the regalia around the EU parliaments and you will see they constantly celebrate Babel! That's because the EU is a manifestation of Babel.

You completely miss the point that God addresses them as whole world empires, despite their parochial natures at that time. That's because they are empowered by the spirit of Antichrist which rules through the ages from these succeeding empires till the day Christ returns and destroys it.
Go away and read Daniel's description of the great image, and his interpretation of what it means. They are referred to as world empires

Ziggurats are very common in the Middle East.. There are old ones or ruins everywhere. They were just watch towers or signal towers.. Nothing to do with the European Union. Babylon just means Gate of the Gods.

You're leaving out the Assyrian Empire.

Assyrian Empire - Ancient Civilizations
www.ancient-civilizations.com/assyrian-empire

The Assyrian Empire is considered to be the greatest among the Mesopotamian Empires owing to its development of bureaucracy and military strategies that gave momentum to its growth. The rise and fall of the Assyrian Empire can be classified to three periods: 1. The Old Kingdom: the existence of the city of Ashur can be traced to this period as an independent city state. The city had close ties with the Sumerians and the Akkadians o…

Ancient History - The Empire Of The Medes And Persians
www.ancienthistory.ca/AncientStates/The-Empire-Of-The-Medes-And-Pers.html
The Empire Of The Medes And Persians The third of the great Oriental monarchies brought in contact with the Jews was that of the Medes and Persians, which arose on the dissolution of the Assyrian and Babylonian empires.

 

[summerville]

This completely contradicts Daniel. Medo-Persia was a united kingdom. That's why it appears as 2 arms in the great image. The final kingdom was Rome and will still be Babylon disguised as Rome when Christ comes.
Look at all the regalia around the EU parliaments and you will see they constantly celebrate Babel! That's because the EU is a manifestation of Babel.

You completely miss the point that God addresses them as whole world empires, despite their parochial natures at that time. That's because they are empowered by the spirit of Antichrist which rules through the ages from these succeeding empires till the day Christ returns and destroys it.
Go away and read Daniel's description of the great image, and his interpretation of what it means. They are referred to as world empires

Ziggurats are very common in the Middle East.. There are old ones or ruins everywhere. They were just watch towers or signal towers.. Nothing to do with the European Union. Babylon just means Gate of the Gods.

You're leaving out the Assyrian Empire.

Assyrian Empire - Ancient Civilizations
www.ancient-civilizations.com/assyrian-empire

The Assyrian Empire is considered to be the greatest among the Mesopotamian Empires owing to its development of bureaucracy and military strategies that gave momentum to its growth. The rise and fall of the Assyrian Empire can be classified to three periods: 1. The Old Kingdom: the existence of the city of Ashur can be traced to this period as an independent city state. The city had close ties with the Sumerians and the Akkadians o…

Ancient History - The Empire Of The Medes And Persians
www.ancienthistory.ca/AncientStates/The-Empire-Of-The-Medes-And-Pers.html
The Empire Of The Medes And Persians The third of the great Oriental monarchies brought in contact with the Jews was that of the Medes and Persians, which arose on the dissolution of the Assyrian and Babylonian empires.

 

[Francis Drake]

Ziggurats are very common in the Middle East.. There are old ones or ruins everywhere. They were just watch towers or signal towers.. Nothing to do with the European Union. Babylon just means Gate of the Gods.

You're leaving out the Assyrian Empire.

Assyrian Empire - Ancient Civilizations
www.ancient-civilizations.com/assyrian-empire

The Assyrian Empire is considered to be the greatest among the Mesopotamian Empires owing to its development of bureaucracy and military strategies that gave momentum to its growth. The rise and fall of the Assyrian Empire can be classified to three periods: 1. The Old Kingdom: the existence of the city of Ashur can be traced to this period as an independent city state. The city had close ties with the Sumerians and the Akkadians o…

Ancient History - The Empire Of The Medes And Persians
www.ancienthistory.ca/AncientStates/The-Empire-Of-The-Medes-And-Pers.html
The Empire Of The Medes And Persians The third of the great Oriental monarchies brought in contact with the Jews was that of the Medes and Persians, which arose on the dissolution of the Assyrian and Babylonian empires.

Interesting, but not relevant given that Assyria's power preceded Babylon.

When Nebuchadnezzar had his dream, Assyria was past tense. That's why it didn't feature in the dream that God gave him, which it states was about the future, not the past.

But why are you still banging on about this. You obviously haven't read Daniel, otherwise you wouldn't be making such errors of understanding. Please go and read it, then any discussion is from common ground.

 

[nolidad]

Completely wrong and naive!
Brexit has extensive biblical significance as any spirit led intercessor would tell you.

For confirmation of that, you only have to look at the extensive sculptures, architecture, postage stamps, coinage, etc. around the EU parliament buildings in Brussels and Strasbourg to see the links to the Antichrist kingdom

Wrong again.
In Daniel (2v34), when the stone cut out without hands strikes the great image, the whole edifice, all the way back to the head of Gold, collapses in one go.
This signifies that although thousands of years have passed since Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon, that Golden kingdom still rules over the feet. ie. Rome is part of Babylon.

In fact, Revelation shows that when Jesus returns, it is Babylon that still rules, in the form of the final ten kingdoms of the world. But the sequence of the great image shows the final kingdom will still be seen as Roman.

Daniels interpretation also makes it clear that there are only 4 kingdoms till Christ, the 4th being Rome.

You have to look at this from God's perspective to see how wrong you are.
Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar was a city state. Its kingdom was smaller than those that followed and certainly much smaller than Rome. But look what God says about it.

Dan2v37You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.
That's one amazing statement to make about a city state. According to Daniel, God had given Nebuchadnezzar rulership over the whole world. Yet we know his kingdom was quite parochial, limited to certain areas of the middle east. We know also that there were other strong kingdoms on Babylon's periphery. Yet God singles out Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar and says he rules the whole world, most of which he's never heard of.

And just to confirm He really meant the whole world, God tells him that the subsequent kingdoms will also rule the whole world.-
39But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
40And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.
It couldn't be clearer. In God's eyes, this sequence of kingdoms were simply the earthly manifestation of one demonic kingdom that throughout the centuries, never relinquished its control over those nations, and ultimately the whole world.

That final kingdom has always been Rome, which since the collapse of the military kingdom, has manifest itself in the Roman Church, and now in the EU.
Daniel is very clear that there is no other kingdom than the four shown in the image. These are the golden head of Babylon, the silver shoulders and arms of Medo-Persia, the bronze thighs of Greece, and iron legs of Rome.

The image shows no gap in the iron legs of Rome, other than them continuing down to the toes with the addition of clay. Thus the Roman kingdom of Daniel has never ceased, despite what theologians or historians might claim.

First I completely reject your implication that anyone who does not believe Brexit is spiritually led! That is spiritual hubris to the extreme!

Well you fail to take into account that eretz can mean the world or mean just the land.

You also forget we having been living in the times of the Gentiles as Jesus said since Babylon.

You also fail to recognize that the fourth beast goes though many iterations! Rome was the first! then came the eat west division of Rome which occurred in the 4th century when Rome collapsed and there were two capitals, Rome and Constantinople! This phase is still in effect to this day! This fourth beast also was called different from all th erest. How so? Simple Rome established a new form of governing its conquered lands called imperialism! They appointed governors over the land to insure Rome was given tribute, but they allowed each conquered territory great latitude. The east west division (the legs of iron) have remained though the power has shifted.

In the east:

Constantinople remained first under a Roman form, then as a muslim caliphate. Then it slowly moved to the North where it settled in what was once the Soviet Union (Russia) Even the old rulers were called czars which is a rename of Cesar.

In the West it moved from Rome to:

The holy Roman Empire of Germany - ruled by Kaisers (Cesars)
Then the Holy Roman Empire of the Frankish and then Spanish Empire
The it moved to Britain and now sits in America.

In th efuture there will be a one world government (Dan. 7: 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.) This one world government will fail and the ten horns will arise and rule the world. during the time of those 10 rulers- the eleventh horn (the Antichirst) shall arise, conquer three of the 10 and become the culmination of the time of the gentiles!

So the Eu may be one of the ten kingdoms or rulers (there have been many people who have attempted to maps out who the ten rulers would be) but it is not the end all be all. I read Things to Come by JD Pentecost and respect him immensely but he errs in identifying the ten kings as a revived Roman Empire or that europe is the area that will conquer.

 

[nolidad]

The Roman Empire is long gone.. Daniel's four kingdoms were (1) Babylon, (2) Media, (3) Persia, and (4) Greece.



Daniel was writing about Antiochus IV. His empire wasn't that large if you look at a map. The Roman Empire that followed was much larger.

No Daniel was not writing about Antiochus Epiphenes. The four kingdoms were Babylon, Medio/Persia (they were one when they captured Jerusalem) Greece, and the fourth which started with Rome and ends with the Antichrist! And it waas Greece under Alexander not Antiochus! Antiochus is one of the four wings! This happened after Alexander did and the Grecian kingdom was divided into four.

 

[solid_core]

No Daniel was not writing about Antiochus Epiphenes. The four kingdoms were Babylon, Medio/Persia (they were one when they captured Jerusalem) Greece, and the fourth which started with Rome and ends with the Antichrist! And it waas Greece under Alexander not Antiochus! Antiochus is one of the four wings! This happened after Alexander did and the Grecian kingdom was divided into four.

Roman empire does not exist anymore. So it cannot "end" in some hypotetical future.

 

[nolidad]

Roman empire does not exist anymore. So it cannot "end" in some hypotetical future.

Because it was never "just" the Roman Empire. It is a beast that is different from the rest and that difference is Imperialism! That is still very much in effect and is in the 2 leg stage with two imperialistic nations , the USA and Russia!

If you look at Daniel 7, 9 and Revelation and the Matthew portion of the Olivet discourse you will see that the fourth beast started and transforms over time and takes on many different identities until Jesus returns! So this fourth kingdom started after Greece and still continues to day and will continue in its different forms until Jesus physically returns!

!The Roman Empire
2. The east west Division (two legs)
3. a one world government
4. the ten rulers (ten horns and ten toes)
5. the Antichrist (the eleventh horn)

 

[solid_core]

Because it was never "just" the Roman Empire. It is a beast that is different from the rest and that difference is Imperialism! That is still very much in effect and is in the 2 leg stage with two imperialistic nations , the USA and Russia!

If you look at Daniel 7, 9 and Revelation and the Matthew portion of the Olivet discourse you will see that the fourth beast started and transforms over time and takes on many different identities until Jesus returns! So this fourth kingdom started after Greece and still continues to day and will continue in its different forms until Jesus physically returns!

!The Roman Empire
2. The east west Division (two legs)
3. a one world government
4. the ten rulers (ten horns and ten toes)
5. the Antichrist (the eleventh horn)

I must admire your fantasy, but there is no evidence that your complicated modern exegesis of Daniel is true.

Why would Daniel thought about Russia or USA? He was dealing with the nation of Israel and the kingdom of God that came with Jesus Christ during the Roman Empire in the first century.

 

[nolidad]

I must admire your fantasy, but there is no evidence that your complicated modern exegesis of Daniel is true.

Why would Daniel thought about Russia or USA? He was dealing with the nation of Israel and the kingdom of God that came with Jesus Christ during the Roman Empire in the first century.

Now you are just ttrying to interpose future prophesy and make Daniel understand it!

He spoke and was given the prophesy- we have seen it played otu and understand what nations are involved! Daniel didn't have to! But as it is history and fulfills exactly so far what was prophesied we can rest assured it is correct!

Just like the prophesy of the eleventh horn- we will not know who he is until he is revealed and then we can put a name to him.

 

[solid_core]

Now you are just ttrying to interpose future prophesy and make Daniel understand it!

He spoke and was given the prophesy- we have seen it played otu and understand what nations are involved! Daniel didn't have to! But as it is history and fulfills exactly so far what was prophesied we can rest assured it is correct!

Just like the prophesy of the eleventh horn- we will not know who he is until he is revealed and then we can put a name to him.

The prophecy of Daniel was about 4 world empires till the Messiah will come. The last was Rome and Christ came in 30 AD.

Why do you want to stretch Daniel's words 2,000 years more and to apply it to modern Russia or something like that?

 

[Francis Drake]

First I completely reject your implication that anyone who does not believe Brexit is spiritually led! That is spiritual hubris to the extreme!

Well you fail to take into account that eretz can mean the world or mean just the land.

Despite what you say, 'Eretz' is normally translated as 'earth', not 'land', but that was not what I was relying on anyway.
In fact the description Daniel gives proves that 'eretz' was referring to the whole earth.
Daniel2v 37You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.
Given that the children of men, the beasts of the field, the birds of the heaven dwelt throughout the whole the earth, then the whole earth was Nebuchadnezzar's domain, not just Babylon.
Just to be clear, this is about prophetic vision, and the Lord was addressing the Spirit of Antichrist that was behind Babylon.
Obviously at that time Babylon hadn't stretched to America or Australia, but it will have by Jesus's return.

You also forget we having been living in the times of the Gentiles as Jesus said since Babylon.

That's exceedingly obvious thank you, but how does that help your argument, or oppose mine?

You also fail to recognize that the fourth beast goes though many iterations!

Again exceedingly obvious, in fact one of the principles on which I've been making my argument.

Rome was the first! then came the eat west division of Rome which occurred in the 4th century when Rome collapsed and there were two capitals, Rome and Constantinople! This phase is still in effect to this day! This fourth beast also was called different from all th erest. How so? Simple Rome established a new form of governing its conquered lands called imperialism!

There was nothing significantly new in the way the Romans did things other than their power and brutality.

They appointed governors over the land to insure Rome was given tribute, but they allowed each conquered territory great latitude.

Just as Babylon did. You can read it in the OT.

The east west division (the legs of iron) have remained though the power has shifted.

In the east:

Constantinople remained first under a Roman form, then as a muslim caliphate. Then it slowly moved to the North where it settled in what was once the Soviet Union (Russia) Even the old rulers were called czars which is a rename of Cesar.

In the West it moved from Rome to:

The holy Roman Empire of Germany - ruled by Kaisers (Cesars)
Then the Holy Roman Empire of the Frankish and then Spanish Empire
The it moved to Britain and now sits in America.

In th efuture there will be a one world government (Dan. 7: 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.) This one world government will fail and the ten horns will arise and rule the world. during the time of those 10 rulers- the eleventh horn (the Antichirst) shall arise, conquer three of the 10 and become the culmination of the time of the gentiles!

You've just fallen into the trap you dug for me.
You claimed that in reference to Babylon's reign, 'eretz' merely meant "land", but you now claim it means the whole earth. Make your mind up! If it means the whole earth in Daniel 7, it also meant the whole earth in Daniel 2 in his interpretation of the dream.

So the Eu may be one of the ten kingdoms or rulers (there have been many people who have attempted to maps out who the ten rulers would be) but it is not the end all be all. I read Things to Come by JD Pentecost and respect him immensely but he errs in identifying the ten kings as a revived Roman Empire or that europe is the area that will conquer.

The final kingdom is not just the EU, but covers the whole world The world is divided into ten kingdoms, of which the EU is the first example.

I don't actually think you and I are that far apart @nolidad in our understanding of the end times.
The Roman Empire, containing the spirit of Babylon, has had many revisions, including the ones you mention. I would add Napoleon and WW1 under the Kaiser, and WW2 under Hitler and now the EU.

Interestingly, historically it has been England/Britain that has repeatedly gone in and destroyed these attempts at European hegemony. More recently with the help of the USA.
Thus I believe the Brexit move has not just brought this country back to freedom, but will lead to the collapse of the current EU project.
No doubt it will be resurrected, but hopefully it will give the world more years of grace.

 

[Francis Drake]

The prophecy of Daniel was about 4 world empires till the Messiah will come. The last was Rome and Christ came in 30 AD.

Why do you want to stretch Daniel's words 2,000 years more and to apply it to modern Russia or something like that?

It should be obvious that the Roman Empire was not destroyed when Christ was around the first time, therefore the prophecy must continue till Christ comes a second time to destroy it then.

 

[Francis Drake]

Roman empire does not exist anymore. So it cannot "end" in some hypotetical future.

Obviously we don't see Roman legions trampling all over Europe any more, but that doesn't mean its empire no longer exists. Over the centuries, Rome has had many manifestations, including the Catholic Church and the EU.

 

[Francis Drake]

Just thought I would post some evidence showing how the EU constantly identifies itself with Babylon.

Obviously this is the Tower of Babel. But its not just a cartoon on paper, the actual European Parliament building was designed with its upper structure deliberately unfinished to represent the unfinished Tower of Babel. If people are offended at me saying this, I am only reporting what the EU itself says! Look at the photo below and you will see its deliberately unfinished appearance.

Next we will look at the EU's obsession with the woman riding the beast from the book of Revelation.

And again

And again, this time a 2 Euro coin.

A 5 Euro coin.


An EU postage stamp.

There are plenty of other similar images, but this will do for now to prove the Antichrist spirit behind the EU

 

[nolidad]

The prophecy of Daniel was about 4 world empires till the Messiah will come. The last was Rome and Christ came in 30 AD.

Why do you want to stretch Daniel's words 2,000 years more and to apply it to modern Russia or something like that?

Because those four "kingdoms" start with Nebuchadnezzar and last until Jesus returns. thjere is no break in the kingdom or times of the Gentiles until Christ returns!

Jesus came in 4BC

 

[nolidad]

Just thought I would post some evidence showing how the EU constantly identifies itself with Babylon.

Obviously this is the Tower of Babel. But its not just a cartoon on paper, the actual European Parliament building was designed with its upper structure deliberately unfinished to represent the unfinished Tower of Babel. If people are offended at me saying this, I am only reporting what the EU itself says! Look at the photo below and you will see its deliberately unfinished appearance.

Next we will look at the EU's obsession with the woman riding the beast from the book of Revelation.

And again

And again, this time a 2 Euro coin.

A 5 Euro coin.


An EU postage stamp.

There are plenty of other similar images, but this will do for now to prove the Antichrist spirit behind the EU

No one is disagreeing that the kingdoms of this world are governed by the Spirit of Antichrist!

 

[nolidad]

Obviously we don't see Roman legions trampling all over Europe any more, but that doesn't mean its empire no longer exists. Over the centuries, Rome has had many manifestations, including the Catholic Church and the EU.

Don't forget the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation
the Holy Roman Empire of the Frankish nation
and the Holy Roman Empire of the Spanish nation
as well as the attempted Millenial kingdom under Hitler and the third Reich!

 

[nolidad]

Despite what you say, 'Eretz' is normally translated as 'earth', not 'land', but that was not what I was relying on anyway.
In fact the description Daniel gives proves that 'eretz' was referring to the whole earth.
Daniel2v 37You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.
Given that the children of men, the beasts of the field, the birds of the heaven dwelt throughout the whole the earth, then the whole earth was Nebuchadnezzar's domain, not just Babylon.
Just to be clear, this is about prophetic vision, and the Lord was addressing the Spirit of Antichrist that was behind Babylon.
Obviously at that time Babylon hadn't stretched to America or Australia, but it will have by Jesus's return.

No this prophecy refers to Nebuchadnezzar alone! Look at the passage! Do you think God is lousy at grammar? can't tell the difference between then and now?

Eretz is normally translated as land or earth depending on context.

Just because Neb. had not conquered the whole earth, does not mean that God had not given the whole world unto his hands!

You've just fallen into the trap you dug for me.
You claimed that in reference to Babylon's reign, 'eretz' merely meant "land", but you now claim it means the whole earth. Make your mind up! If it means the whole earth in Daniel 7, it also meant the whole earth in Daniel 2 in his interpretation of the dream.

Once again context determines definition. eretz is mostly translated land! HA ERETZ is "the land" and usually means a specific territory it is translated land 1543 times and as earth 743 times..

There was nothing significantly new in the way the Romans did things other than their power and brutality.

Wrong! Rome established a new form of governance called Imperialism. It was diverse from the other three kingdoms and rulers! And has continued on to this day as I outlined. The fourth kiongdom started with Rome, has continued to this day and will end with THE Antichrist!

Interestingly, historically it has been England/Britain that has repeatedly gone in and destroyed these attempts at European hegemony. More recently with the help of the USA.
Thus I believe the Brexit move has not just brought this country back to freedom, but will lead to the collapse of the current EU project.
No doubt it will be resurrected, but hopefully it will give the world more years of grace.

And yet England was very Imperialistic. Remember it was said the the sun never set on the British Empire! Now America is the western Imperial power as Russia is the east. Then comes the one world govt. the ten kings and the antichrist.

An excellent in depth study of eschatology I recommend is "Footsteps of the Messiah" by A. Fruchtenbaum. I have taught eschatology in bible colleges and churches over 30 years, and this is the best in depth study I have found, and I have read dozens from all positions from sane to very wierd!

 

[Francis Drake]

No one is disagreeing that the kingdoms of this world are governed by the Spirit of Antichrist!

Those images were expressly to prove the Babylon roots of the EU.

The extent that any given nation serves Satan obviously varies in accordance with the faithfulness of its past and present leaders and its laws.
The spirit of antichrist is working hard to bring all nations completely under its rule, that's why in both the UK and USA we see so many rapid changes in laws that reverse the Godly heritage we once had.