How does a person get saving faith?

Ahermit

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Can you tell me how a lost one can do that?
By becoming conscious of that tiny bit we know is true. That small voice within which warmly acknowledges truth when it hears it. That part is God's spirit within you, which is your reference point of what is true. It is that part which knows the truth when you hear it.

Recognizing that tiny part you know is true, is to become acquainted to how it loves the Truth when it hears it. That love is God's Love loving you for connecting with the truth. Absolutely surrender your 'self' honestly to that Love that loves you. Do it fearlessly. If you do this, unconditionally, then your faith will allow Truth to merge with your abandonment to it. The highermost (God/Truth) will merge with your innermost (Spirit - Being), healing and restoring to its true original authentic state. At that very moment, you are saved.

Once you make that unconditional connection, you will never forget it. Returning to 'loving the Love that loves you', will become easy, because it is 'home' to the soul; and it loves it and yearns to return to it. It waits for you to surrender unconditionally once again.
 
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bcbsr

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I know how I got saved. But how would you say a person gets saving faith? Feel free to share how you got faith.

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." Rom 10:17

For "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" Rom 10:15

If you want someone to have saving faith, preach the gospel to them.

Like the angel said, "'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’" Acts 11:13,14

The message imparts saving faith, but it's up to us to spread the message.
 
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1Reformedman

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By becoming conscious of that tiny bit we know is true. That small voice within which warmly acknowledges truth when it hears it. That part is God's spirit within you, which is your reference point of what is true. It is that part which knows the truth when you hear it.

Recognizing that tiny part you know is true, is to become acquainted to how it loves the Truth when it hears it. That love is God's Love loving you for connecting with the truth. Absolutely surrender your 'self' honestly to that Love that loves you. Do it fearlessly. If you do this, unconditionally, then your faith will allow Truth to merge with your abandonment to it. The highermost (God/Truth) will merge with your innermost (Spirit - Being), healing and restoring to its true original authentic state. At that very moment, you are saved.

Once you make that unconditional connection, you will never forget it. Returning to 'loving the Love that loves you', will become easy, because it is 'home' to the soul; and it loves it and yearns to return to it. It waits for you to surrender unconditionally once again.

So you think the lost understand spiritual truth, huh? Hmmm seems the bible says otherwise.
 
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1Reformedman

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You don't hold a harsher view. Depravity is depravity. Its repulsed by God's presence if left to be itself. Grace short circuits the flesh's influence over the soul, so God can give His Word to that soul. If that soul likes what the Word says under the circumstances brought by Grace? Then that soul has been given FAITH to believe. Faith comes by hearing the Word.

You can be as harsh as you like concerning the flesh. Its just some do not know how to show grace after someone is saved, and that believer is dealing with weaknesses. Its why (in part) we are told we need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

I have never heard a more ridiculous version of how God regenerates.
 
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GenemZ

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By becoming conscious of that tiny bit we know is true. That small voice within which warmly acknowledges truth when it hears it. That part is God's spirit within you, which is your reference point of what is true. It is that part which knows the truth when you hear it.

We do not have in our natural 'fallen state of being' the ability to hear God.

Hearing that voice is not from you. Its God enabling you to begin to hear.

For your flesh, if left alone? Would blind and deafen you to that voice.

God must intervene. He uses His power of Grace to suppress our depraved flesh, as to enable our soul that resides in that flesh, to hear his still small voice as He draws us along. That is why it says we have been saved "by Grace."

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day."
Jn 6:44


He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me
unless the Father has enabled them.”
Jn 6:65​


The hyper Calvinists get tunnel vision and insist that God forces our soul to choose as it does.

If we were forced to believe? There would be no need for God to "enable" the person. Forcing/dragging is not enabling. Enabling is like making some able to walk. We still must chose to do that walking! But, without God's grace, that same person could not choose to walk being not enabled by God's power of Grace!


God's Grace simply frees up the soul from the dominance of the fallen nature found in the flesh, thus enabling that soul to choose without anything preventing the ability to choose. That enabled ability God causes. We are not consciously aware of the process as it takes place. We may think its just us musing over thoughts that enter our mind as God provides what is need to evaluate where we stand with Him. Those God approves of He elects. We get elected. Yet, God in His omniscience already knew who would believe when made free to. So, we have been elected in eternity past... Predestined for becoming the Bride of the Lord as God has already chosen for those whom He elects during the church age....

Selah...
 
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GenemZ

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I have never heard a more ridiculous version of how God regenerates.



What does your "opinion" matter? For...

Without chapter and verse, we're all perverse.

His ways are not our ways.

Some of us like to see others suffer. Without Truth we see God like ourselves. That is not His way.
 
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Acts2:38

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I guarantee you haven't repented of your sins or transgressions.

You have as much arrogance as another I know here posting. You also imply that you are a god, claiming 100% knowledge in knowing that I have not repented. I find this fascinating.

Sadly you lack the knowledge in what the Greek word "repent" means when, let's say, we bring up Acts 2:38.

μετανοέω metanoéō, met-an-o-eh'-o = to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins (Thayer's Greek Lexicon)

This is indeed part of salvation and I'll show you an example later in this post.

Sure we are human, and Christians will continue to sin. But this is why we need the help of those who are righteous (oops, I believe these verses begin to crack your theory) James 5:16; Galatians 6:1; 1 Peter 3:12, so that when a Christian does transgress, a godly sorrow to repentance restores them. Can even throw in 1 John 1:9 also.

The Bible testifies of our continual sinfulness, despite how much we try.

I would agree with this statement. The very well known verse Romans 3:23 would state such. But your missing information that throws you out of whack leading you to false conclusions. (see answers above and below)

Some are more sinful than others, but all sin leads to hell; and this shows that repenting from sins isn't required for salvation. Neither is baptism.

Luke 13:3
Luke 13:5
Acts 2:38
Acts 11:18
Acts 20:21
2 Corinthians 7:10
2 Peter 3:9
2 Timothy 2:25

In one way or another, all these scriptures mention repenting will lead to salvation. Therefore it is needed.

Thanks for approaching me though. Your the first person I myself have dealt with that didnt believe repentance was necessary at all. Mostly because of how extremely flawed that doctrine is, more so than those who stop short of baptism.

Lastly, if baptism was not necessary, why is everyone in the book of Acts dunking in water?

Furthermore, if baptism is not necessary, why did the Ethiopian eunuch rejoice AFTER being baptized than before being baptized?

Why does the Titus letter speak of the "washing and regeneration"?

The Peter epistle speaking of "eight souls saved by water... baptism now saves you"?

Why did Paul get baptized, washing away his stripes?

Why did Peter still command Cornelius to be baptized into water?
 
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GenemZ

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Sadly you lack the knowledge in what the Greek word "repent" means when, let's say, we bring up Acts 2:38.

μετανοέω metanoéō, met-an-o-eh'-o = to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins (Thayer's Greek Lexicon)

Thayer interjected his own opinion along with the definition.

Metanoéō, means to simply change ones mind about any matter. It was a commonly used word in the Greek speaking world.

It does not have to mean repentance of one's sins..

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth,
and it grieved him at his heart. " Genesis 6:6

"The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD." Amos 7:3​

Those were not about sin. Was it?

Thayer interjected his own believed dogma along with the definition. Thayer was not simply defining the Word's meaning.

And, you can not repent of your sins. You are still stuck in the same body and it requires walking in the Spirit to avoid sinning.

A believer can only repent of a lifestyle of certain sins. Such as, a homosexual becoming saved. And, after receiving the Holy Spirit's power, no longer seeing it as a good thing as the media keeps pounding home these days.

grace and peace
 
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Call me Nic

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We do not have in our natural fallen state of being to hear God.

Hearing that voice is not from you. Its God enabling you to begin to hear.

For your flesh, if left alone, would blind and deafen you to that voice.

God must intervene. He uses His power of Grace to suppress our depraved flesh, as to enable our soul that resides in that flesh, to hear his still small voice as He draws us along. That is why it says we have been saved "by Grace."

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day."
Jn 6:44


He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me
unless the Father has enabled them.”
Jn 6:65​


The hyper Calvinists get tunnel vision and insist that God forces our soul to choose as it does. God's Grace simply frees up the soul from the dominance of the fallen nature found in the flesh, thus enabling that soul to choose without anything preventing the ability to choose. That enabled ability God causes. We are not consciously aware of the process as it takes place. We may think its just us musing over thoughts that enter our mind as God provides what is need to evaluate where we stand with Him. Those God approves of He elects. We get elected. Yet, God in His omniscience already knew who would believe when made free to. So, we have been elected in eternity past... Predestined for becoming the Bride of the Lord as God has already chosen for those whom He elects during the church age....

Selah...
This view makes more sense biblically than what the other Calvinists say around here. I disagree with some minor details, but overall, I appreciate your thoughts on this. Haven't quite heard it put this way before, friend.
 
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Acts2:38

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It does not have to mean repentance of one's sins..

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth,
and it grieved him at his heart. " Genesis 6:6

"The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD." Amos 7:3

You do realize the Greek meanings are different from Hebrew right?

You do realize that you are trying to compare Hebrew with Greek?

:doh::scratch:

And, you can not repent of your sins.

Huh... you contradict all the verses I placed forth to someone else. I already washed my hands of getting anywhere with you. Due in part for obvious reasons such as, reading comprehension.

grace and peace

Ditto.
 
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Call me Nic

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You have as much arrogance as another I know here posting. You also imply that you are a god, claiming 100% knowledge in knowing that I have not repented. I find this fascinating.
I implied nothing of the sort. I just came to that conclusion from what scriptures says.

Sadly you lack the knowledge in what the Greek word "repent" means when, let's say, we bring up Acts 2:38.

μετανοέω metanoéō, met-an-o-eh'-o = to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins (Thayer's Greek Lexicon)

This is indeed part of salvation and I'll show you an example later in this post.

I was going to respond to this, but another poster already did.

Sure we are human, and Christians will continue to sin. But this is why we need the help of those who are righteous (oops, I believe these verses begin to crack your theory) James 5:16; Galatians 6:1; 1 Peter 3:12, so that when a Christian does transgress, a godly sorrow to repentance restores them. Can even throw in 1 John 1:9 also.

I never said that having the help of other Christians wasn't necessary... that is part of the purpose of assembling together (other than to bring the gospel to the world). A Christian that has been washed in the blood of Christ ought not to continue living a life devoted to the desires of the flesh, but rather a life of pleasing the Father. To walk spiritually means to daily put off self, picking up your cross. This is Christian discipline and discipleship, not salvation. When a Christian backslides and falls into sin, it is necessary that those which are spiritual restore him from that sin. A Christian that confesses and forsakes his sin shall obtain mercy according to Proverbs 28:13-14.

However, Jesus Christ himself testified in John 3:16-18 that a person is given everlasting life when they believe in him. Faith alone is all that is required for salvation. Everything else ought to come after our salvation as a result of our salvation, otherwise a disobedient Christian will be chastened by the Lord as a son.

I would agree with this statement. The very well known verse Romans 3:23 would state such. But your missing information that throws you out of whack leading you to false conclusions. (see answers above and below)

What information? This is the exact verse I was referring to which proves you haven't repented of your sins... and yet you falsely accuse me of arrogance and godhead.


Luke 13:3

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Comparing these verses proves that true biblical repentance is coming to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. "Except ye repent... perish" and "whosoever believeth... should not perish." The same phraseology lets the reader know what Christ means by "except ye repent."

Luke 13:5

Luke 13:5 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Then consider the following verse in comparison.

Those that perish are those that are unsaved as proven by 1 Corinthians 1:18 which says, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." Note here that Paul says the preaching of the cross is the power of God for those that are saved. And what did Jesus preach in John 3? That the Son of Man must be lifted up (preaching of the cross) that whosoever believeth in him should not perish (John 3:13-18).

Therefore, it is obvious that the scripture shows those that are unsaved are those that did not believe in Christ. It's all about faith, faith, faith. If you don't believe the preaching of the cross, that is, that Jesus died for your sins and rose again from the dead, you are condemned already (John 3:18, John 3:36).

Acts 2:38

Acts 2:38 is referring to the baptism of repentance which has nothing to do with works and everything to do with faith. I can show you how I come to that conclusion using scripture if you'd like me to.

Acts 11:18

Acts 11:18 is a retelling of what happened in Acts 10:43-48. In that story, Peter preaches the word of God unto them, telling them in Acts 10:43 that all who believe on Christ will receive remission of sins. The very NEXT verse shows those who heard the word (that is, believed according to Acts 10:43) received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This verse actually helps my case and disproves your position.

Acts 20:21

This defines itself: "Repentance toward God" = "Faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Repentance = faith.

2 Corinthians 7:10

2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

Repentance to salvation is coming to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Mark 1:15 proves. "Salvation not to be repented of" simply means salvation that will never be changed. This is another way of saying "everlasing life."

2 Peter 3:9

Oh, I already used this verse to prove my point earlier, so I'll skip this one.

2 Timothy 2:25

2 Timothy 2:25 "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

The same word used in this verse to translate "acknowledging" is the same word used for "confess" in Romans 10:9. To acknowledge the truth is to confess that Christ is Lord which requires faith. This is also summed up as "calling upon the name of the Lord" in Romans 10:13.

Lastly, if baptism was not necessary, why is everyone in the book of Acts dunking in water?

Because Christ said to baptize in Matthew 28:19. Baptism is indeed a command of Christ, but baptism is not required for salvation. If baptism is required for salvation, why did Paul say, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect," (1 Corinthians 1:17)?

Paul was sent to preach the cross of Christ because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 1:18). It is the gospel in which we stand, which is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-5); we cannot be justified by being washed in water. This is the exact reason why Philip required the Ethiopian eunuch to receive Christ before becoming baptized.

Acts 8:36-38 "And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

In this passage, Philip said that the only hindering him from being baptized was his lack of belief. Since the eunuch believed and confess Christ, thus fulfilling Romans 10:9-13, Philip was able to baptize him signifying the eunuch's conversion.

Furthermore, if baptism is not necessary, why did the Ethiopian eunuch rejoice AFTER being baptized than before being baptized?

I just addressed this. He rejoiced because baptism was the commandment given by Christ that he fulfilled subsequent to receiving salvation that signified his conversion.

If baptism is required for salvation... why was Jesus baptized? Jesus committed no sin, yet Jesus was baptized by John. Jesus didn't need salvation, so why did he get baptized? "To fulfill all righteousness," as the verse goes. He performed a work of righteousness - baptism is a work of righteousness we are commanded to fulfill after getting saved. This work of righteousness is a like figure, that is symbolic, of the baptism of the Holy Spirit which Christ gives to every believer after they receive the word of truth according to Ephesians 1:13.

Why does the Titus letter speak of the "washing and regeneration"?

We are washed and regenerated by the Holy Ghost, which baptism is symbolic of. Titus 3:5 even says it's regeneration of the Holy Ghost...

The Peter epistle speaking of "eight souls saved by water... baptism now saves you"?

The key phrase in that verse is "the like figure." The verse is not at all saying that water baptism saves us; it is saying that water baptism is symbolic of the salvation given to us by the resurrection of Christ in the same way Noah was saved from the flood by the ark.

Why did Paul get baptized, washing away his stripes?

He fulfilled the commandment for every new convert - water baptism subsequent to coming to faith in Christ.

Why did Peter still command Cornelius to be baptized into water?

Cornelius received the preaching of the word of Christ in Acts 10. Assuming Cornelius was devote to God but unsaved (which proves works do nothing), Cornelius received salvation and ought to have fulfilled the commandment to be baptized.

Look, no one is denying that baptism is a commandment of Christ; but there are so many verses that prove a person's salvation is dependent entirely upon where their faith is, and not upon their works. And baptism is a work of righteousness as proven by Jesus' own baptism.
 
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GenemZ

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You do realize the Greek meanings are different from Hebrew right?

You do realize that you are trying to compare Hebrew with Greek?

:doh::scratch:

I would like to see what the Septuagint says on those verses.

If anything.... The Greek has a definitive meaning. Its simply a Greek word. Not some theological invented word. It means to have a change in thinking about a matter.
 
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GenemZ

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Huh... you contradict all the verses I placed forth to someone else. I already washed my hands of getting anywhere with you. Due in part for obvious reasons such as, reading comprehension.


You can not say... "I will never sin again."

If you could. You could repent of your sins.

Some wrongly come to believe that they became unable to sin after they are saved.

We can repent of liking certain sins. You can repent as to do everything you can to avoid sinning like you used to. But, one can not repent of ones sins. For we are still stuck in our bodies of corruption that will sin unless we learn how to keep being filled with the Spirit.

We can confess (1 John 1:9) our sins and regain the filling of the Spirit when we sin. But, we will not stop being able to sin until our soul leaves our body, or the Rapture.

Some see "repent" as a means to denounce and cease being able to sin. Its wrong application.
 
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Ahermit

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We do not have in our natural 'fallen state of being' the ability to hear God.

Hearing that voice is not from you. Its God enabling you to begin to hear.

For your flesh, if left alone? Would blind and deafen you to that voice.

God must intervene. He uses His power of Grace to suppress our depraved flesh, as to enable our soul that resides in that flesh, to hear his still small voice as He draws us along. That is why it says we have been saved "by Grace."

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day."
Jn 6:44


He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me
unless the Father has enabled them.”
Jn 6:65​


The hyper Calvinists get tunnel vision and insist that God forces our soul to choose as it does.

If we were forced to believe? There would be no need for God to "enable" the person. Forcing/dragging is not enabling. Enabling is like making some able to walk. We still must chose to do that walking! But, without God's grace, that same person could not choose to walk being not enabled by God's power of Grace!


God's Grace simply frees up the soul from the dominance of the fallen nature found in the flesh, thus enabling that soul to choose without anything preventing the ability to choose. That enabled ability God causes. We are not consciously aware of the process as it takes place. We may think its just us musing over thoughts that enter our mind as God provides what is need to evaluate where we stand with Him. Those God approves of He elects. We get elected. Yet, God in His omniscience already knew who would believe when made free to. So, we have been elected in eternity past... Predestined for becoming the Bride of the Lord as God has already chosen for those whom He elects during the church age....

Selah...
Do you not believe that God's spirit is in all human beings.
 
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Tolworth John

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I’m not sure what you are trying to get across with Eph. 2:8



I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:



And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.





Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)



Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)



Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)





"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).



You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.

I don't care which translation you use they all say that Faith comes from God.
 
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BBAS 64

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Would you mind telling how Romans 10 converged with your life?

Good Day, Peter

As a gentile I see the end of Romans 10 as a great deceleration of God in His transforming power though the instrumental means of the Preaching of the Gospel.

Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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I’m not sure what you are trying to get across with Eph. 2:8



I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:



And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.





Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)



Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)



Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)





"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).



You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.

Good Day, Bling

I will see if I can find some thing from Carson, or Schreiner as they are in the top 3 NT Greek Scholars alive to day.

A.T. Robertson, the great American Greek scholar, specifically denied

Any connection between touto and faith on the basis of the difference in genders in his Word Pictures in the New Testament. His comments, however, are derived more from theology than grammar, as has been pointed out.

As William Hendrikson rightly observed: That offered by A. T. Robertson. Commenting on this passage in his Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. IV, p. 525, he states, Grace is God's part, faith ours. He adds that since in the original the demonstrative this (and this not of yourselves) is neuter and does not correspond with the gender of the word faith, which is feminine. It does not refer to the latter but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Even more clearly in Gram. N.T., p. 704, he states categorically, In Eph. 2:8 . . . there is no reference to dia; pivstew" [through faith] in tou'to [this], but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.

Without any hesitancy I answer, Robertson, to whom the entire world of New Testament scholarship is heavily indebted, does not express himself felicitously in this instance. This is true first because in a context in which the apostle places such tremendous stress on the fact that from start to finish man owes his salvation to God, to him alone, it would have been very strange, indeed, for him to say, Grace is God's part, faith ours. True though it be that both the responsibility of believing and also its activity are ours, for God does not believe for us, nevertheless, in the present context (verses 5-10) one rather expects emphasis on the fact that both in its initiation and in its continuation faith is entirely dependent on God, and so is our complete salvation.

Also, Robertson, a grammarian famous in his field, knew that in the original the demonstrative (this), though neuter, by no means always corresponds in gender with its antecedent. That he knew this is shown by the fact that on the indicated page of his Grammar (p.704) he points out that in general the demonstrative agrees with its substantive in gender and number. When he says in general, he must mean, not always but most of the time.

Hence, he should have considered more seriously the possibility that, in view of the context, the exception to the rule, an exception by no means rare, applies here. He should have made allowance for it. Finally, he should have justified the departure from the rule that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise the antecedent should be looked for in the immediate vicinity of the pronoun or adjective that refers to it.



In Him

Bill
 
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GenemZ

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Do you not believe that God's spirit is in all human beings.

NOT AT ALL! We have only a soul and body before regeneration.

There would be no need to be born again if what you just stated were truth.


Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”



Unbelievers are spiritually DEAD! But,, physically alive. Only soul and body.


The person without the spirit does not accept the things that come
from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot
understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Cor 2:14

grace and peace
 
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zoidar

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Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."

In Him,

Bill

Good evening Bill,

Yes, that would be the gentiles. The Jews were chosen from from the start, not the gentiles.
 
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