How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[fhansen]

Good Day, Flansen

I think it is a little stronger than preferring darkness...

Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

They love darkness and do so (loved) because of their deeds. They hate light and do not come to the light the hate drives them back to their true love. Those who come to light clearly show the work of God.

People will always choose that which they love as it represents their strongest desire and does so freely. They can do no other.

In Him,

Bill

Oh I won't disagree with this; it's based on classic theology in fact. But God still doesn't force us to love the light. The cross stands as an offering of light and love that we can navigate to as we become jaded by the offerings of the world. In fact, this very nonedenic world has as one if its purposes the experience-or knowledge-of evil, so that we'll be compelled to seek the good as we develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and then to accept the true Good when we see it.

Again, a matter of the will, drawn and coached by God but never overridden. Otherwise, as has been said, God may as well have simply stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest at the beginning, or prevented Adam from sinning to begin with, and avoided all the pain, suffering, and sin that resulted down through human history.

We're here to make a decision, having learned through struggle to run like Prodigals back to the goodness of the Father whom our original parents spurned. And then to continue to live better and better according to that decision throughout our lives.

And the definition of that light, of that justice and truth, is love. And as the ancient churches have always taught in one form or another, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

That's what faith is meant to lay the foundation for and to the extent that we understand this, we understand the gospel.

 

[St_Worm2]

The gospel ... involves God calling and drawing man, establishing cooperation between Himself and man that man cannot initiate; man is lost, he cannot find himself.

Hi fhansen, I'm with you about the necessity of the Father's calling and drawing us to His Son to be saved, but "establishing cooperation" as a 'necessary' part of the Gospel is certainly an interesting thought (or at least an interestingly different type of phraseology anyway ).

Everything begins with grace.

Of course, but are we actually "saved" by grace* (like the Bible tells us that we are .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10) if our salvation 'requires' our cooperation and our good works It seems to me that if the latter is true, that our works are required (rather than being the result or fruit of our salvation), then we're actually saved by what we do, not by grace (because if we are saved by what we do, then grace is no longer grace .. e.g. Romans 11:6 cf Romans 4:4-5).

*(I believe that when the Bible tells us that we are saved "by grace" it's a code .. of sorts .. for the fact that we are wholly saved on the basis of the works and merits of Jesus, done by Him on our behalf. IOW, we are saved, from first to last, by His innocence, His righteousness, and His death/His blood alone, which is the only atonement for our sins, and the only satisfaction for the Father's wrath .. Romans 5:8-10; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

...man's first response is faith, which is the foundation of justice in man because it is the resestablishment of relationship or communion with God that man was made for.

Agreed.

Question though, if we are ALL graciously "drawn" by the Father, then is it not each person's "choice" (~apart~ from God's grace) that is the sole (or at least initial) factor that differentiates those who are bound for the New Earth in eternity from those who are bound for the Lake of Fire?

And if that is true, would it not also be each person's "choice" (to continually cooperate with God .. or not), that is the final factor that establishes where we will reside in the age to come (again, ~apart~ from grace)?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - in John 6:44 Jesus tells us that, "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day". But if the Father draws ~EVERYONE~ to His Son, then how can Jesus' words in the second half of that verse be true (or in the passage below for that matter), unless ~everyone~ is saved Thanks again

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.​

.

 

[Serving Zion]

Absolutely.

Romans 5: NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Which Paul summarizes in one statement the above below in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

2 Corinthians 5: NASB
21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I still do not see how this applies without repentance, so I need to ask, do you believe that a person receives the justification by faith and the righteousness (as the gift from God) without repentance or before repentance?

.. and, if you believe that repentance is first required for that one to receive the justification and righteousness, then how can you say that repentance has happened if they have not crucified the flesh?

 

[Serving Zion]

Because the very definition of God's Grace is that it is unmerited favor.

That hasn't been established yet. As I said in post #180, I suspect we are probably not looking at this the same way.

You are not being very cooperative in a conversation, toward finding agreement. Do you know why that is?

We all are. Yet do you know how God's unmerited favor aka His Grace works for those who cannot speak with their mouths calling on the Lord Jesus Christ?

Yes I do. I have given you that explanation already in this thread.

The Scriptures do not say,

I don't agree, as I have already explained. If you require to see the scriptural support for anything I have said, you are entitled to ask for it.

but the Scriptures are clear that God is Just, Merciful and Loving.

It is the nature of justice, mercy and love that is at the root of our disunity. Where you say babies are born bearing the image of Satan because of what Adam and Eve did, you are demonstrating injustice. That doctrine does not come from God.

But what do the Scriptures say?

For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)
​

Actually, the view of a Sovereign God Sovereign in salvation is the fair and compassionate view. Why? Because one relies on the Grace of God knowing He is Just and Good and every soul comes before the Throne of Grace and is rightly judged by the very God-Man Jesus Christ who provided His very own precious blood for our redemption.

I agree with these words in isolation. They are consistent with Christianity as I view it, but it does not mean to say that I endorse whatever doctrines you would attach. Can you see that there is a problem here? That shouldn't be happening between Christians - a brethren with a common spirit, right?

So, are you interested in cooperating with me, in a meaningful and fair conversation, beginning with a fact that we do have something in common, and expanding upon that until we come to the unity of the faith? (See Ephesians 4:13).

So the babies straw man forces folks to rely on their own sense of justice and ignore the very words, will and design of God.

I reject that assertion. Only I say that it isn't justice at all, that a person should be penalised for the sin of another person, especially when they have had no chance to prevent that person's error. That is what the doctrines of Inherited (Ancestral) Sin imply.

It is simply all about justice, and that the false teachers who introduced those heresies have perverted the way of truth (2 Peter 2:2) and many who see the hypocrisy and injustice of those doctrines are turned away from Christianity because of it - thinking that those doctrines represent God.

As I say, those doctrine does not come from God at all and it is not what scripture teaches.

If we worry about babies in the nail pierced Hands of Christ, because like all we will appear before Him, then we truly lack the trust and faith for God to truly save us who are consciously condemned sinners who hear the Gospel. Why? Because those babies do not have to do one righteous act to obtain the Grace of God as the Righteousness which saves is the very Righteousness of God through Jesus Christ.

I agree. And why should they have to do one righteous act? .. what sin have they done that they should be disqualified from seeing the grace of God?

 

[redleghunter]

I still do not see how this applies without repentance, so I need to ask, do you believe that a person receives the justification by faith and the righteousness (as the gift from God) without repentance or before repentance?

All one event see below.

and, if you believe that repentance is first required for that one to receive the justification and righteousness, then how can you say that repentance has happened if they have not crucified the flesh?

Nothing happens without God first taking out our hearts of stone and giving us hearts of flesh. Only then are we exposed to our wickedness and in godly sorrow led to repentance calling upon the Name of Jesus Christ in faith for salvation.

Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

Notice the redemption God establishes is not for our sakes but for His Holy Name.

Notice the "I will" statements.

Notice what God is DOING. Notice that in verses 31-32 after God does His work in us, we will remember our evil ways, deeds that were not good and will loathe ourselves (2 Corinthians 7:10). That God will do these things for us, He declares it! And He is doing these things not for our sakes but for His Holy Name.

 

[redleghunter]

That hasn't been established yet. As I said in post #180, I suspect we are probably not looking at this the same way.

You deny Grace is unmerited?

Romans 4: ESV
1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Edit add:

Grace:charis
G5485
Moreover, the word χάρις contains the idea of kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved: Romans 11:6; hence, κατά χάριν and κατά ὀφείλημα are contrasted in Romans 4:4, 16; χάριτι and ἐξ ἔργων in Romans 11:6; κατ' ἀκλογην χάριτος, Romans 11:5; but the N. T. writers use χάρις pre-eminently of that kindness by which God bestow: favors even upon the ill-deserving, and grants to sinners the pardon of their offences, and bids them accept of eternal salvation through Christ: Romans 3:24; Romans 5:17, 20f; (Romans 6:1); 1 Corinthians 15:10; Galatians 1:15; Galatians 2:21; Ephesians 1:6,(Ephesians 1:7); Ephesians 2:5,7f; Philippians 1:7; Colossians 1:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:16; 1 Timothy 1:14; 2 Timothy 1:9; Hebrews 2:9 (here Treg. marginal reading χωρίς); Hebrews 10:29; Hebrews 12:15; Hebrews 13:9; 1 Peter 1:10; Jude 1:4; εὑρίσκειν χάριν, Hebrews 4:16; ἡ χάρις τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡ σωτήριος, Titus 2:11; ὁ λόγος τῆς χάριτος, the message of his grace, Acts 14:3; Acts 20:32; τό εὐαγγέλιον τῆς χάριτος τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 20:24; it is styled 'the grace of Christ,' in that through pity for sinful men Christ left his state of blessedness with God in heaven, and voluntarily underwent the hardships and miseries of human life, and by his sufferings and death procured salvation for mankind: (Acts 15:11); 2 Corinthians 8:9; Romans 5:15; Galatians 1:6; (Titus 3:7); John 1:14, 17. χάρις is used of "the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues": 2 Corinthians 4:15; 2 Corinthians 6:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:12; οἱ πεπιστευκότες διά τῆς χάριτος, Acts 18:27; ὑπό χάριν εἶναι,' to be subject to the power of grace, opposed to ὑπό νόμον εἶναι, Romans 6:14f; τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε, Galatians 5:4; προσμένειν τῇ χαρη, Acts 13:43 (G L T Tr WH); ἐπιμένειν, ibid. Rec.; ἐν τῇ χάριτι (R G WH text omit the article), prompted by grace, Colossians 3:16; the grace of God promoting the progress and blessings of the Christian religion, Acts 11:23; (prompting its possessors to benefactions, 2 Corinthians 9:14); sustaining and aiding the efforts of the men who labor for the cause of Christ, 1 Corinthians 15:10; 2 Corinthians 1:12; the favor of Christ, assisting and strengthening his followers and ministers to bear their troubles, 2 Corinthians 12:9.

You are not being very cooperative in a conversation, toward finding agreement. Do you know why that is?

The purpose of this conversation is to draw the truth from Scriptures and not compromise the truth.

 

[fhansen]

Hi fhansen, I'm with you about the necessity of the Father's calling and drawing us to His Son to be saved, but "establishing cooperation" as a 'necessary' part of the Gospel is certainly an interesting thought (or at least an interestingly different type of phraseology anyway ).

Of course, but are we actually "saved" by grace* (like the Bible tells us that we are .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10) if our salvation 'requires' our cooperation and our good works It seems to me that if the latter is true, that our works are required (rather than being the result or fruit of our salvation), then we're actually saved by what we do, not by grace (because if we are saved by what we do, then grace is no longer grace .. e.g. Romans 11:6 cf Romans 4:4-5).

*(I believe that when the Bible tells us that we are saved "by grace" it's a code .. of sorts .. for the fact that we are wholly saved on the basis of the works and merits of Jesus, done by Him on our behalf. IOW, we are saved, from first to last, by His innocence, His righteousness, and His death/His blood alone, which is the only atonement for our sins, and the only satisfaction for the Father's wrath .. Romans 5:8-10; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Agreed.

Question though, if we are ALL graciously "drawn" by the Father, then is it not each person's "choice" (~apart~ from God's grace) that is the sole (or at least initial) factor that differentiates those who are bound for the New Earth in eternity from those who are bound for the Lake of Fire?

And if that is true, would it not also be each person's "choice" (to continually cooperate with God .. or not), that is the final factor that establishes where we will reside in the age to come (again, ~apart~ from grace)?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - in John 6:44 Jesus tells us that, "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day". But if the Father draws ~EVERYONE~ to His Son, then how can Jesus' words in the second half of that verse be true (or in the passage below for that matter), unless ~everyone~ is saved Thanks again

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.​

.

Hi St_Worm. Thank you for the reply. 'Establishing cooperation' is just a term or concept I'm familiar with. It means that, as others here believe, God must make the initiative, man cannot turn to Him without His help; prevenient grace is required. The difference here is that, in Catholic theology man can nonetheless resist said grace, refusing God's offer-or walk away at anytime after accepting it.

 

[Serving Zion]

Come on now did you miss this in the text:

"So Cain was very angry"

Nope. I know that's written there, but that is only an observation. It does not help at all for the purpose of teaching him, and there is no indication in the text that

Is it your point Cain was punished by God for something he did not know was wrong?

No, my only point is that sin got the better of Cain not because he had been born different after The Fall than if he had been born before The Fall, but because Adam and Eve had been of a fallen nature while raising him, and thus, the fallen spirit in them ("the spirit that is working in the sons of disobedience") caused a corruption to his nature (Proverbs 22:6, Matthew 12:33).

That is how death spreads to all because all come to be sinners - not through inheritance or imputation, but by acculturation (1 John 5:19, 1 Corinthians 15:33).

God already rebuked Cain for his anger and Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:

Matthew 5: NASB
21“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Jesus was not dealing with a new way at looking at murder. Anger is the murder in the heart. That is what God was telling Cain and Cain went ahead and did it. And the very fact that Cain after having his offering rejected became dejected and angry shows he did not have to learn this but the very nature of sin was inherent in him.

Where do you see that God was telling Cain that "Anger is murder in the heart"?

.. you seem to be suggesting that Cain was being told what Jesus was telling people some 1,500 years later.

All one event see below.
Nothing happens without God first taking out our hearts of stone and giving us hearts of flesh. Only then are we exposed to our wickedness and in godly sorrow led to repentance calling upon the Name of Jesus Christ in faith for salvation.

I haven't found evidence for that yet, as I explained in post #169:

"That is why you see Christians getting at each other's throats instead of being in agreement - there is some disunity because one of them (and often it is both of them!), they are more interested in what they want to achieve in the conversation than what The Holy Spirit wants to achieve. They are not serving The Holy Spirit that is in each other, but they are serving the flesh.

So I can see how there is a way of thinking that they might be "justified by faith" even though still not having crucified their flesh - but I am not so sure whether to believe that they are justified by their faith while being in that state, or whether they are only being possessed by The Holy Spirit in His mercy while He leads them toward repentance"

.. and while I acknowledge that you believe what you have just said, remember that in order for you to teach me you need to lead my mind to a place of understanding so that I may see it as agreeable.

As I said, I have asked you to show specific scripture, and you gave me Romans 1-5, to which I have found in post #175, that there was no conclusive answer to the question.

Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

Notice the redemption God establishes is not for our sakes but for His Holy Name.

Notice the "I will" statements.

Notice what God is DOING. Notice that in verses 31-32 after God does His work in us, we will remember our evil ways, deeds that were not good and will loathe ourselves (2 Corinthians 7:10). That God will do these things for us, He declares it! And He is doing these things not for our sakes but for His Holy Name.

I am not really sure what to make of that in this context though.. are you suggesting that the house of Israel was justified in His sight before He did all of those works? (I don't see it - He said "be confounded and ashamed" which is akin to "be condemned", not "be justified").

You deny Grace is unmerited?

Grace, to me, is not what it is to you:

grace
[greys]
See more synonyms for grace on Thesaurus.com
noun

1. elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action:We watched her skate with effortless grace across the ice.
2. a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment:He lacked the manly graces.
3. favor or goodwill.

Jeremiah 16:13: "I will cast you into a land you have not known, to serve foreign gods, for I will give you no [elegance or beauty, favor or goodwill]"
Zechariah 12:10: “Then I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of [elegance or beauty, favor or goodwill] and supplication, when they will look toward Me whom they pierced.
Psalms 45:10: You are the most handsome of the sons of men. [elegance or beauty, favor or goodwill] pours from your lips. Therefore God has blessed you forever.
Proverbs 22:1: "A good name is to be chosen rather than great wealth, and [elegance or beauty, favor or goodwill] rather than silver or gold."
1 Thessalonians 5:28: "The [elegance or beauty, favor or goodwill] of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah be with you."
2 Corinthians 4:14: "For all things are for your sakes, so that the[elegance or beauty, favor or goodwill] that is spreading through more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow—to the glory of God."

Try replacing those examples with "unmerited favour" and see what picture it draws. Is that grace?

It helps to remember the antonym too: "disgraceful".

Romans 4: ESV
1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

That's right, but to be "impartial in judgement" does require that judgement is merited fairly. "To have mercy upon whom I have mercy" does not mean to say that it is "without rhyme or reason". There is a law, and that law is what condemns or acquits us (Romans 2:15-16).

Edit: and I noticed you have added the Strong's definition of the word "grace" from the Greek word "charis" - but that word is not present in the passage you have quoted here.

I really feel that in order for agreement to come about, we do need to cooperate more - acknowledging that we do have something in common, being appreciative of that, and gently extending the boundaries as we grow into a greater unity of understanding.

I just see that patience is suffering big time between us in this thread. I don't know what more I can do to fulfil my responsibility to that end.

The purpose of this conversation is to draw the truth from Scriptures and not compromise the truth.

There's more to it than that.

 

[redleghunter]

Grace, to me, is not what it is to you:

I used the lexicon you used thesaurus.com

You went for general definitions I applied how the word charis is used in the pertinent text.

Sorry my friend I am not going through the spin cycle again with you. I gave loads to chew on in expository format within context. I'm not seeing a viable response to me and I'm doing all the heavy lifting.

An answer of "well I don't see it that way" is not a response.

 

[redleghunter]

Hi St_Worm. Thank you for the reply. 'Establishing cooperation' is just a term or concept I'm familiar with. It means that, as others here believe, God must make the initiative, man cannot turn to Him without His help; prevenient grace is required. The difference here is that, in Catholic theology man can nonetheless resist said grace, refusing God's offer-or walk away at anytime after accepting it.

Would you like to share how this cooperation is explained in the NT? Perhaps lead us to the lexicon to learn how the word "cooperation" was used in context of a particular discourse or passage?

 

[redleghunter]

That's right, but to be "impartial in judgement" does require that judgement is merited fairly. "To have mercy upon whom I have mercy" does not mean to say that it is "without rhyme or reason". There is a law, and that law is what condemns or acquits us (Romans 2:15-16).

What standard of Justice are you applying to God?

 

[fhansen]

Would you like to share how this cooperation is explained in the NT? Perhaps lead us to the lexicon to learn how the word "cooperation" was used in context of a particular discourse or passage?

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5

But I actually misquoted the teaching I referred to, not that it changes anything. This is the full paragraph:
"1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42"

In any case it speaks of the movement of God to accomplish what man cannot and would not do on his own. And yet man can still reject and subvert God's work.

 

[redleghunter]

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5

But I actually misquoted the teaching I referred to, not that it changes anything. This is the full paragraph:
"1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42"

In any case it speaks of the movement of God to accomplish what man cannot and would not do on his own. And yet man can still reject and subvert God's work.

What is the Scriptural basis for this Catechism entry?

 

[fhansen]

What is the Scriptural basis for this Catechism entry?

Well, I doubt that you'd have any objection to the need for grace in order to achieve man's assent. But as far as man's ability to say "no", it's in the "if". "If you remain in me.."
Or in the invitation: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matt 11:28
The invitation and the "if" are all throughout Scripture, every time man is commanded to do what is right, and warned and admonished not to sin, and to remain faithful. It culminates in the person of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, the One who we must remain in, who we can do nothing without, who we must come to.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, I doubt that you'd have any objection to the need for grace in order to achieve man's assent. But as far as man's ability to say "no", it's in the "if". "If you remain in me.."
Or in the invitation: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matt 11:28
The invitation and the "if" are all throughout Scripture, every time man is commanded to do what is right, and warned and admonished not to sin, and to remain faithful. It culminates in the person of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, the One who we must remain in, who we can do nothing without, who we must come to.

Thanks I guess we go with the Vine discourse. Did a long expository on that with another poster. But will keep it to the text here.

I’m going to say you see John 15:1-10 was for the apostles and for us. I agree we must be consistent and agree.

What I usually do is look aggressive expanded context from John 13 through John 17 showing why Jesus came to give this discourse which was to comfort them. I’ll quote the text.

John 15: NASB
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.(NASB)

Pretty straight forward. Most look at this as warning the apostles not to fall away like Judas. I too held to that as just before this Judas leaves and John knew why and I think Peter did too.

Verse 11 is telling.


11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.(NASB)

All that taking away and burning non abiding branches and this was to make their joy full!?

I think Jesus is reassuring them that they are clean (verse 3) and abiding. That the one non abiding branch (verse 6) was already chopped off and thrown in the fire or soon to be. That would be the son of perdition Judas to fulfill the Scriptures.

But reassuring them from verse 11 would be an opinion based on potentially conflicting facts.

Dawned on me a few years ago maybe I should keep reading.

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another. (NASB)

The rest of the story. Jesus was reassuring them. He calls them friends instead slaves.

And then in verse 16 says they did not choose Him but He chose them. Not only that but they would go and bear much fruit and their fruit would remain.

Interesting.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks I guess we go with the Vine discourse. Did a long expository on that with another poster. But will keep it to the text here.

I’m going to say you see John 15:1-10 was for the apostles and for us. I agree we must be consistent and agree.

What I usually do is look aggressive expanded context from John 13 through John 17 showing why Jesus came to give this discourse which was to comfort them. I’ll quote the text.

John 15: NASB
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.(NASB)

Pretty straight forward. Most look at this as warning the apostles not to fall away like Judas. I too held to that as just before this Judas leaves and John knew why and I think Peter did too.

Verse 11 is telling.


11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.(NASB)

All that taking away and burning non abiding branches and this was to make their joy full!?

I think Jesus is reassuring them that they are clean (verse 3) and abiding. That the one non abiding branch (verse 6) was already chopped off and thrown in the fire or soon to be. That would be the son of perdition Judas to fulfill the Scriptures.

But reassuring them from verse 11 would be an opinion based on potentially conflicting facts.

Dawned on me a few years ago maybe I should keep reading.

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another. (NASB)

The rest of the story. Jesus was reassuring them. He calls them friends instead slaves.

And then in verse 16 says they did not choose Him but He chose them. Not only that but they would go and bear much fruit and their fruit would remain.

Interesting.

Nothing is a done deal. That kind of talk is admonishment, hyperbole, encouragement, etc. For example:
"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." 6:11-12

We must count or consider ourselves dead to sin; we must refrain from sin. This is not a sure thing; it's the meeting place between our free cooperation and grace.

 

[Serving Zion]

I used the lexicon you used thesaurus.com

So what? You should address the content.

You went for general definitions I applied how the word charis is used in the pertinent text.

There was no mention of charis in the text you gave! (check it out!)

Sorry my friend I am not going through the spin cycle again with you.

Hmmm, well I will have to let Jesus decide what to do with you.

I gave loads to chew on in expository format within context.

I didn't see it. Did you see all that I gave you?

I'm not seeing a viable response to me

That isn't my fault - you are not reading what I write, nor responding to what I say.

and I'm doing all the heavy lifting.

Oh, that is deceit. Big time. Go through the thread and count the words we each have typed. Try to work out how long it takes. You basically copy/pasted everything and responded on a whim to the first sentence of every post I wrote.

An answer of "well I don't see it that way" is not a response.

Have it your way then. You go your way I will keep serving those in whom God is doing His work (I am not seeing Him in this response - case closed, I gather).

I hope He is able to turn your heart to review the thread in a new light.

 

[Serving Zion]

What standard of Justice are you applying to God?

Justice just "is".

 

[Hammster]

Nothing is a done deal. That kind of talk is admonishment, hyperbole, encouragement, etc. For example:
"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." 6:11-12

We must count or consider ourselves dead to sin; we must refrain from sin. This is not a sure thing; it's the meeting place between our free cooperation and grace.

This is written to the saved, not the lost.

 

[fhansen]

This is written to the saved, not the lost.

Well, it's written to known believers so that they may remain justified or may confirm their calling and election or continue to work out their salvation