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Featured How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by redleghunter, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Come on now did you miss this in the text:

    "So Cain was very angry"
     
  2. Hammster

    Hammster Melanin Level - Low Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying here, and I’d like to respond accurately.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    First the highlighted in Brown above. You make the case for a Universal salvation.

    In the green highlighted. To avoid a Universalist view have to change how God actually says He will regenerate us with regards to the New Covenant.

    Ezekiel 36: NASB

    22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

    Notice the redemption God establishes is not for our sakes but for His Holy Name.

    Notice the "I will" statements.

    Notice what God is DOING. Notice that in verses 31-32 after God does His work in us, we will remember our evil ways, deeds that were not good and will loathe ourselves (2 Corinthians 7:10). That God will do these things for us, He declares it! And He is doing these things not for our sakes but for His Holy Name.

    First, who says this exactly? The very fallen nature of man says no to God. Romans 3 comes to mind.

    Romans 3: NASB

    9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

    10as it is written,
    “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;


    11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
    THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;


    12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
    THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
    THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”


    13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
    WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
    “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;


    14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

    15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

    16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

    17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

    18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

    So "no" is our default setting.

    Second, what exactly is being overruled? As seen above and throughout Romans our very nature cannot accept the things of God. Why He said "I will" so many times in Ezekiel 36.

    Please tell me the 'neutral setting' where we all turn off being children of wrath not seeking God, having turned aside doing no good?
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    In order to remain in Christ one must first be in Christ.
     
  5. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    The gospel, as I understand it and as the ancient churches have taught from the beginning as far as I know, involves God calling and drawing man, establishing cooperation between Himself and man that man cannot initiate; man is lost, he cannot find himself. Everything begins with grace. And man's first response is faith, which is the foundation of justice in man because it is the resestablishment of relationship or communion with God that man was made for. But at any step along the way man can refuse the gift of grace, or turn back away from it later

    And as He struggles with sin and righteousness throughout whatever time he's given, and with whatever gifts he's given such as grace, knowledge/ revelation, experience, etc, he works out his salvation together with He who works in us.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Melanin Level - Low Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay. Thanks for that. It’s not the gospel, but at least I know where you’re coming from.
     
  7. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    No, not universal salvation but rather the offer of salvation .
     
  8. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Just not a novel gospel in any case.
     
  9. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Exactly, by not refusing the offer. That's the one part man can do .
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The Evangelist brings the Gospel and we were commanded to preach it to the end of the earth.

    The visualization of this is in Matthew 13 where seed is scattered on every surface.

    Matthew 13: NASB
    3And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5“Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6“But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7“Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8“And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9“He who has ears, let him hear.”

    10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

    14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
    ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
    YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;


    15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
    WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
    AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
    OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
    HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
    AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
    AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’


    16“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17“For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    For those the Father gives to the Son. God is certainly in control of this.

    John 6: NASB
    35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

    [...]
    44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


    Jesus is the Gatekeeper to the Kingdom of God. I truly believe entry into the Kingdom resides with the King. As a Sovereign King I too think He has a say in his own immigration policy. ;)
     
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  12. Hammster

    Hammster Melanin Level - Low Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It’s no gospel at all.
     
  13. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, they closed their eyes, they preferred darkness. This all speaks of choice as they had the option
     
  14. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Let me ask you a few questions:

    The Bible does not refer to Adam and Eve’s first sin as a “fall” so why should we?

    Adam and Eve sinned with the “nature” they had, so why would our “nature” have to change in order for us to sin?

    We know “knowledge” of good and evil was gained for mankind through the eating of the fruit, but is knowledge itself bad to have?

    Would it be “fair” for God to give a better “nature” to Adam & Eve than we have?

    “Knowledge” of good and evil does provide us with lots more ways to sin and so all mature adults do sin, but is sin the problem or is unforgiven sin the problem?

    Do all these “curses” given Adam & Eve and pasted down to man, help or hinder man in his fulfilling his earthly objective?

    Jesus could use any words He wanted to in describing the prodigal son, but twice referred to him as being “dead” even though the father knew the son was alive, so in a dead state (by Christ’s definition of dead) a person can do stuff that causes them to come to their senses and for selfish reasons tern to the Father.

    It is very true the nonbelieving sinner cannot do anything righteous, worthy, deserving of anything, so he cannot "choose Christ", but he can wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy while God is still his enemy in hopes of receiving undeserved charity and thus have some kind of livable life.

    some scriptures on why I think man is born free of sin so:

    Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

    2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

    Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

    Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

    Jer. 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

    God tells us that we do not inherit anyone's sin (Ezek. 18:20; cf. 2 Ki. 14:6). We sin after giving into temptation. We are tempted when we are carried away and enticed by our own lusts (Ja. 1:13- 15). Then when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death (Ja. 1:

    Jesus teaches us that we must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God (Matt. 18:3- 4; Lk. 18:16-17) ---- we must be as infants regarding evil (1 Cor. 14:20). Therefore, babies are born without sin. If they die, they are safe, because they have no sin


    Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;

    you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.

    On you was I cast from my birth,

    and from my mother's womb you have been my God.


    This Psalms 51:5 is often used as the “proof text” for man being born a sinner: Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV

    The problem is this is not talking about “David” being the sinner at conception, but his “mother” being the sinner at his conception. This is a very poetic verse, so it is hard to take everything literally, but if his mother is the issue with him baring the burden of original sin then Christ would have the same issue? The Jews have a very lengthy ancient oral tradition about David’s mother that would explain this verse, but it is not in scripture. In scripture David refers to his mother twice as being extremely Spiritual and does not talk about his father in such positive ways.
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Jesus explained why only one soil accepted the seed and produced:

    10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Answers to all your questions are in the very text in wish you choose to omit:

    Romans 5: NASB

    1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

    6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

    18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    What do you consider death is? That was the curse and that curse is passed from generation to generation. It's measurable as we have cemeteries full of the dead. We also told in Scriptures we are spiritually dead and must be born again. The whole meaning of the Gospel to reconcile man to God. Jesus rose from the dead so that we can obtain eternal life.

    Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden and cut off from the Tree of Life. The 'fall' is the condemnation (see Romans 5 above)

    Because through procreation we become like our parents. All children of Adam and Eve are cut off from the Tree of Life. We are by nature children of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (ToKG&E)---Condemned (See Romans 5 above)

    You tell me. In Genesis 3 eating from that tree made Adam and Eve immediately ashamed of their own created naked bodies. God banished them from the Garden, cut off from the Tree of Life, Eve was to bear children in pain (last I checked this still happens) and Adam had to toil with the soil to provide and survive. Plus they died being cut off from the Tree of Life.

    Judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation---This from Romans 5 above.


    Probably not if one applies post modern SJW victim class mentality to God. But that is not the God of the Scriptures.

    Yet, once again, if we are to take your point of view, it fails. Why? Because the sons and daughters of Adam through today are cut off from the Tree of Life. We are condemned without the Tree of Life and Praise be to God in Christ Jesus we now have access again through His shed Blood, to all those who believe.

    We all have unforgiven sin. Judgment arose from the one transgression bringing condemnation (see Romans 5 above)

    What does this mean and what is man's earthly objective? If you mean the earthly objective given to Adam which was obedience, yes sin is disobedience.

    When the prodigal son 'came to his senses' he devised a plan to go back and be a servant to his father. Basically 'work off' his transgressions. Let's see what actually happened:

    Luke 15: NASB
    17“But when he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger! 18‘I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.”’ 20“So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22“But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

    That was for the affairs of men to men. Adam transgressed the covenant of obedience which was between Adam and God.
     
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  17. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Ok, those questions require an exposition, your in luck, I actually have one:

    According to Paul:

    Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).
    Looking at the larger context of Romans let's consider the context of Romans 5. The book of Romans tells us that God's invisible attributes and eternal nature have been clearly seen but we exchanged the truth of God for a lie (Rom 1:21,22). As a result the Law of Moses and the law of our own conscience bears witness against us, sometimes accusing, sometimes defending (Rom 2:15). We all sinned but now the righteousness of God has been revealed to be by faith through Christ (Rom 3:21). Abraham became the father of many nations by faith and the supernatural work of God (Rom 4:17). Through one man sin entered the world and through one man righteousness was revealed (Rom 5:12). It looks something like this:
    1. Exchanging the truth of God for a lie, the creature for the Creator.
    2. Both the Law and our conscience make our sin evident and obvious.
    3. All sinned, but now the righteousness of God is revealed in Christ.
    4. Abraham's lineage produced by a promise and a miracle through faith.
    5. Through one man sin entered the world and death through sin.
    6. Just as Christ was raised from the dead we walk in newness of life.
    7. The law could not save but instead empowered sin to convict.
    8. Freed from the law of sin and death (Adamic nature) we're saved.
    The Scriptures offer an explanation for man's fallen nature, how we inherited it exactly is not important but when Adam and Eve sinned we did not fast. This is affirmed in the New Testament in no uncertain terms by Luke in his genealogy, in Paul's exposition of the Gospel in Romans and even Jesus called the marriage of Adam and Eve 'the beginning'.

    So are you a sinner and why? At what point does the individual become guilty before God as a sinner because the New Testament witness is clear, we all are. So why are we all sinners? Was it because of our first parents or do you have some other explanation? We've seen Paul's, what is yours?

    So are you saying that we are only sinners when we commit an actual offense against God. That doesn't make sense if Paul tells us:

    All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)
    If we didn't inherit sin, then how is it possible some could not have made the choice of not being sinners? I only ask because there is an important theological issue here.

    You can be innocent and still be a sinner, because God requires the righteousness of God in Christ. I don't recall seeing the exemption for children in Paul's indictment that all are sinners, what did I miss?

    You just argued quite effectively against your own premise that you don't inherit sin. David confesses he was born in sin, as indeed we all must. Otherwise what would be your explanation that all are sinners?

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  18. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day, Flansen

    I think it is a little stronger than preferring darkness...

    Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

    They love darkness and do so (loved) because of their deeds. They hate light and do not come to the light the hate drives them back to their true love. Those who come to light clearly show the work of God.

    People will always choose that which they love as it represents their strongest desire and does so freely. They can do no other.

    In Him,

    Bill
     
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  19. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Amen
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster Melanin Level - Low Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ^^^^What he said.
     
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