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Featured How do you view Daniel 2

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by PROPHECYKID, Feb 18, 2017.

  1. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  2. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Its the 3 1/2 year Wrath of God starting with the Seals ending with the Vials.
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    For it's only after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" at Revelation 16's seventh-and-last vial, the final event of the future Tribulation (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2), that Jesus Christ will return and rapture (gather together) and marry the Church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    Also, the world won't experience the seven last plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the final stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the second vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the third vial, all natural, surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the fourth vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future Tribulation.

    At the fifth vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the sixth vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together to fight YHWH God Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (that is, the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH) returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

    At the seventh vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The seventh vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

    *******

    Then are you of the pre-wrath/seventh-trumpet rapture view, instead of the post-tribulation rapture view?

    If so, note that regarding the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus Christ will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the seventh trumpet sounds. It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at His Second Coming and during the subsequent Millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

    Jesus' Second Coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the future Tribulation's seventh trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It's like if someone said: "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the Tribulation's final stage, will come out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

    So the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the Tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the Church will be physically resurrected into immortality (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

    Before the Second Coming, the Tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5), which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible, 75-day vials-delay between Jesus Christ taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and His return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75-five days before he moves there to live in that house.

    At Jesus' Second Coming, only the Church will be physically resurrected and judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27). And then Jesus will marry the obedient part of the Church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and rewarding of the Church in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the seventh trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

    Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' Second Coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected Church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), the time period commonly called the Millennium. Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people becoming Christians, which has been going on for thousands of years.
     
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Do you mean the entire future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath? If so, note that nothing says or requires that, just as nothing says or requires that any part of the Tribulation which will be God's wrath will be directed against any of those in the Church (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the Tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

    The Tribulation's first five seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment. For after the first four seals, the Christian martyrs of the fifth seal ask God when He's going to bring His judgment against the non-Christian world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more Christian martyrs, which the fifth seal foretells will happen sometime after the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those Christian martyrs. So Jesus Christ's unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the future Tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

    The Tribulation's sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the future Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The future Day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the future Day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

    So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the future Tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11; and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a; so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

    After the Tribulation's sixth seal will occur its seventh seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires any of the first six trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The fifth trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the sixth trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first six trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy a third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause a third of the angels (that is, his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

    Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the non-Christian world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, Satan could deceive the non-Christian world into actively hating YHWH and worshipping Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

    After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the Tribulation's seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of Christians (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, Christians will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus Himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ Himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against Christians (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for Christians aren't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

    Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the future Tribulation's final stage, because Christians aren't appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any Christians who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

    Jesus Christ will return right after the seventh-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and He will bring the Second-Coming wrath of God on the non-Christian world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that Second-Coming wrath begins, Christians will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
     
  5. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  6. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    The 5th Seal is a Judgment against the Evil World, its like a trial where evidence is put forth. The Seals are the Lambs Wrath, he allows evil upon an evil loving wold, and those under the Alter are a TESTIMONY to unchecked evil. God doesn't do things out of order. All of the Seals are Gods Wrath. The Trumpets are the Holy Spirits Wrath and the Vials are The Fathers Wrath.
     
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  12. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  13. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  14. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  15. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    The Kingdoms of Daniel 2 are the same as the Kingdoms of Daniel 7 except (in Daniel 2)
    the first Kingdom is shown from TWO perspectives.... from the perspective of pre-fall and post-fall.

    (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" consisting of all Saints from Adam to Noah
    (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" consisting of all the Saints in the Kingdom of Israel
    (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" consisting of all the "wheat and tares" during the Great Commission
    (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" consisting of the "ten virgins" following the Anti-Christ.
    (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" consisting of all the Saints from each Kingdom

    There are four temporal "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth before the Lord Returns to establish
    the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven".

    These ten "virgins" (wise and foolish virgins = wheat and tares in the Fourth Kingdom)
    are shown as ten "horns" and ten "Kings" in Daniel's Fourth Kingdom [Daniel 7] and they
    are shown as ten "horns" and ten "Kings" in the Revelation Kingdom [Rev 17] and they
    are shown as ten "toes" and ten "kings" in Daniel 2... be sure to note Dan 2:44

    BTW.... the toes of IRON represent the "wheat/sheep" in the Kingdom
    and the toes of CLAY represent the "tares/goats" in the Kingdom

    Daniel's Kingdoms cannot be known until the "time-of-the-end" [Dan 12:8-10]
    which is also called the "Season and Time" on earth after destruction of the Fourth Beast [Dan 7:11-12]

    In the New Testament the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" is named in Mat 22:2
    The (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" is discussed in Mat 13... the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
    is named in Mat 25:1... the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" is named in Mat 5, 7, 8, 19


    .
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    For Daniel 2:31-33a,37-40 was fulfilled by the ancient empires of Babylon (head of gold: Daniel 2:38b), Medo-Persia (silver), Greece (brass), and Rome (iron), the same four empires pictured by the four beasts in Daniel 7.

    Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect, and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus Christ (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 won't (as is sometimes claimed) occur at Jesus' future, Second Coming, but at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when non-Christians of all times will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43 the kingdom of God the Father is after the Great White Throne Judgment, when a New Earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the Church on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

    Note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time Revelation was written down in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus Christ's first coming and His crucifixion for our sins.

    So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what's going to happen in our future by seeing how much these two books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

    Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't contradict the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which the prophet Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't yet been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the Church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the future Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

    Regarding Daniel 7:11, note that in the preceding context, Daniel 7:10b could refer to the judgment of only the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:19-30, Luke 12:45-48), which judgment will occur, along with the marriage of the Church to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), shortly before Jesus defeats the future Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, by casting him into the lake of fire (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

    So Daniel 7:11a could refer to the future Antichrist, the voice of the horn, shortly before his destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, speaking great blasphemies against YHWH God (cf. Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) to try to build up the morale of the world's armies, which will have gathered together in an attempt to fight YHWH (Revelation 19:19, Revelation 16:14).

    Daniel 7:11b refers to the future Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, being cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:20). In Daniel 7, the Antichrist is considered to be part of the fourth beast (Daniel 7:23-25).

    Regarding Daniel 7:12, note it doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) require the prior beasts didn't have their dominion (their empires) taken away before the future Antichrist's destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, but can mean they're different from the Antichrist in that they had a post-empire existence, in the sense that Babylon, even after its defeat as an empire in the 6th century BC, continued on as a thriving city for centuries (and it has even been rebuilt in our own time, in Iraq). And Medo-Persia continues on today as Iran and the Kurds. And Greece continues on as a nation. And Rome continues on as Italy. Also, Iraq, Iran, the Kurds, Greece, and Italy could continue to exist as distinct nations (not empires) during the future Millennium of Revelation 20:4-6, which won't begin until after the future Antichrist's destruction in Revelation 19:20, at Jesus Christ's (still unfulfilled) Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3.
     
  17. VARZR

    VARZR New Member

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    Babylonian empire

    Medo-persian empire

    Greek empire

    Ottoman empire (the culmination of other islamic empires)

    Feet are revived ottoman empire which Erdogan has publicly stated he wants to accomplish. A divided empire because the muslim religion is divided.

    Gog of Magog is the antichrist and his invasion sets up the abomination of desolation.
     
  18. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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  19. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    You missed the whole point.

    Daniel 7:11-12 are the same event as Rev 19:20...
    in both passages the Fourth Beast (aka, the Revelation Beast) is cast alive into the
    Lake-of-Fire (or Burning Flames).

    Then there is a "Season and Time" on earth when the "rest of the Beasts" continue to exist.

    Daniel's Beasts (and the Revelation Beast) cannot be political/physical nations UNLESS you are willing
    to teach that some people remain on earth for a "Season and Time" AFTER the people in the Fourth Kingdom
    are cast into the Lake.

    Do you believe that some people exist on earth AFTER other people are cast alive into the Lake?
    Yes or no?
     
  20. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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