How do you understand the portrayal of God in the Old Testament?

ArmyMatt

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I am pointing out things that seem to contradict other things in the Bible.

they don't contradict, they happened before Christ's ministry. the world was redeemed on the Cross. so post Cross is a different world than before the Cross.

Can we say that it is always bad to kill children, or that it is only bad to kill children most of the time?

always bad? in a sense yes, because no human was created to die. however, after the Fall but before the Incarnation, before God assumed humanity and deified it, God only had fallen and sinful and dead people to work with. remember, it must be looked at through the prism of the Cross

And why is it that God stops commanding such atrocities after a certain point?

because He became incarnate, died, and was buried, and rose again. that is the difference. after that, the Holy Spirit can indwell in man since man has been raised to God's right hand.

Is it because he changed his mind?

no, He doesn't change His mind. He went from working with us prior to the Messianic age, to us now IN the Messianic age.

Is it because he never actually did, and it was simply a militant Jewish culture's way of telling their story?

no, because they were militant because they had to be. look at the cultures that surrounded them. they were not any more or less militant than anyone around them. if it was all just flub because the Jews wanted to fight, Jesus and the Apostles would have addressed it properly

A further question, if someone claims that God told them to go blow up all the abortion clinics because God told them in the long run it would be for the best, on what grounds would you accept or reject their claim?

depends. if He actually DID tell him to do it, then who am I to argue? if He did not and the guy is just wacky (which, so far, is the case), then we would reject it because we live after the ressurrection of Christ.
 
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rusmeister

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On that last one, we would almost certainly reject it. It would take an angel appearing to a synod of bishops to get any such acceptance.

Angels were used as messengers in the face of extraordinary events. But lacking something like that, we'd reject it.
 
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The Jews back then were just a small tribe among many struggling for survival while being surrounded by more numerous and stronger groups of people. They were fearful men who lived in cruel times and as such the way they viewed God is as a fearsome and sometimes cruel God. I believe it has more to do with the people that described Him than with how God really was/is.
 
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truthseeker32

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they don't contradict, they happened before Christ's ministry. the world was redeemed on the Cross. so post Cross is a different world than before the Cross.
I thought Christ's sacrifice was eternal, redeeming and affecting all, even those that came before his death.



depends. if He actually DID tell him to do it, then who am I to argue? if He did not and the guy is just wacky (which, so far, is the case), then we would reject it because we live after the ressurrection of Christ.
And I find this sort of mindset frightening. There are all sorts of atrocious actions in the OT that God supposedly commanded, and if we aren't able to say "X is always wrong" then we can only conditionally be anti-slavery, anti-abortion, anti-infanticide etc. There is always a "unless God commands it" fine print. The idea of objective morality becomes weakened, and we draw nearer to the modern secularist who adheres to a certain set of moral principles simply because that is what society taught him.
 
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rusmeister

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I thought Christ's sacrifice was eternal, redeeming and affecting all, even those that came before his death.



And I find this sort of mindset frightening. There are all sorts of atrocious actions in the OT that God supposedly commanded, and if we aren't able to say "X is always wrong" then we can only conditionally be anti-slavery, anti-abortion, anti-infanticide etc. There is always a "unless God commands it" fine print. The idea of objective morality becomes weakened, and we draw nearer to the modern secularist who adheres to a certain set of moral principles simply because that is what society taught him.
On your second comment, that's why I added my observation. Matt's trying to stress that, as Tolkien put it via Gandalf in LOTR, "Even the wise cannot see all ends"; that we cannot know what God certainly knows. It seems to be the thing that most needs to be stressed here.

On your first, there actually IS an Old Testament and New Testament, and it is theological, going far beyond a mere division in a "single" book called "The Bible". The ancient Jews actually had the Truth as revealed to them, but God's manner of working in the world decidedly changed with the establishment of the Church. Jesus came to fulfill the Law. Trying to hold the indisputably higher standards we are held to in light of that revelation on the ancient Jews is anachronistic, to say the least. They did NOT have the revelation of Christ. We DO.

But like I said, Hopko is better.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I thought Christ's sacrifice was eternal, redeeming and affecting all, even those that came before his death.

it was, from God's point of view. from ours however, bound by time, there is a before and after the Cross.

And I find this sort of mindset frightening. There are all sorts of atrocious actions in the OT that God supposedly commanded, and if we aren't able to say "X is always wrong" then we can only conditionally be anti-slavery, anti-abortion, anti-infanticide etc. There is always a "unless God commands it" fine print. The idea of objective morality becomes weakened, and we draw nearer to the modern secularist who adheres to a certain set of moral principles simply because that is what society taught him.

well, that was just an example. morality is as God defines it, so thank goodness He is not for infanticide. however, when it comes to His acts within time, and how He chose to reveal Himself, we must put a historical context on it, not because He changed, but because we did.
 
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On your second comment, that's why I added my observation. Matt's trying to stress that, as Tolkien put it via Gandalf in LOTR, "Even the wise cannot see all ends"; that we cannot know what God certainly knows. It seems to be the thing that most needs to be stressed here.

I guess, in such a circumstance, I would have to believe that God would not command such a thing as to blow up an abortion clinic, but if a person decided to do so, God could take that evil and use it for His Good pupose. I guess that is how I view some events in the OT.... in light of the Jesus I know in the NT.

I don't know, but I wonder if these OT events that seem to be disturbing and I believe actually happened, happened because of the hardness of hearts and our free will, but not on God's commands; however, he takes the events and uses it for His own Good purpose. IDK, but I think God allows things to happen and He can do whatever He wills, but I don't think He commands us to do or is the author of evil and to me, in my limited mind, spiritual or otherwise, those events, God have mercy on me, sound evil.

I tend to think that we alone, OT and NT, are capable of causing enough evil on our own and God in His mercy allows it and uses it for His good purpose, to accomplish what He wills, in whatever way He wills. So I guess, for now, I see the difference between the OT and NT in the way God was perceived in the OT versus as revealed in the NT.

To get back to Truthseeker32's original question--How do you reconcile the God of the Old Testament with the Christ of the New Testament? I guess that is how I reconcile it.

You have to admit, Truthseeker32 has some very good, thought-provoking questions. Do the Orthodox have a doctrine that must be adhered to on this topic?

Thanks,

Orthodox in my heart on Sunday and everyday, but still haven't made the plunge.
 
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rusmeister

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On your second comment, that's why I added my observation. Matt's trying to stress that, as Tolkien put it via Gandalf in LOTR, "Even the wise cannot see all ends"; that we cannot know what God certainly knows. It seems to be the thing that most needs to be stressed here.

I guess, in such a circumstance, I would have to believe that God would not command such a thing as to blow up an abortion clinic, but if a person decided to do so, God could take that evil and use it for His Good pupose. I guess that is how I view some events in the OT.... in light of the Jesus I know in the NT.

I don't know, but I wonder if these OT events that seem to be disturbing and I believe actually happened, happened because of the hardness of hearts and our free will, but not on God's commands; however, he takes the events and uses it for His own Good purpose. IDK, but I think God allows things to happen and He can do whatever He wills, but I don't think He commands us to do or is the author of evil and to me, in my limited mind, spiritual or otherwise, those events, God have mercy on me, sound evil.

I tend to think that we alone, OT and NT, are capable of causing enough evil on our own and God in His mercy allows it and uses it for His good purpose, to accomplish what He wills, in whatever way He wills. So I guess, for now, I see the difference between the OT and NT in the way God was perceived in the OT versus as revealed in the NT.

To get back to Truthseeker32's original question--How do you reconcile the God of the Old Testament with the Christ of the New Testament? I guess that is how I reconcile it.

You have to admit, Truthseeker32 has some very good, thought-provoking questions. Do the Orthodox have a doctrine that must be adhered to on this topic?

Thanks,

Orthodox in my heart on Sunday and everyday, but still haven't made the plunge.

I think the thought has already been provoked, and answered. There are so many things expounded in Orthodox Tradition, yet we do not see everything as "doctrine which must be adhered to". I think Hopko speaks about it as well as it can be said. Perhaps GK Chesterton put it even better in saying "The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."

Or, to put it yet another way, we're supposed to try to become like God, not try to make God more like us.
 
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rusmeister

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i have found figuring out what exactly this means to be quite perplexing.
Exactly!
But, aiming at the source of your perplexity, we do as the Church teaches us to do, to strive for theosis and the acquisition of the Holy Spirit.

And we don't try to second-guess God, to imagine that we can judge Him. And that means leaving room for mystery, being OK with it (unlike the Catholic Thomistic tendency to rationalize everything).

Anyway, a better question: How's Hopko going?
 
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truthseeker32

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Anyway, a better question: How's Hopko going?
I got through the series. I liked a lot of his points, but I remain agnostic as to whether or not God actually commanded the slaughter of innocents. I am now listening to Dr. Jeannie Constantinou's commentary on the Book of Numbers.
 
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seashale76

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Yet- throughout the Old Testament- what do we see? God constantly giving people the opportunity to turn from their wickedness and repent. Also- keep in mind that compared to everyone else around them- the strict law code found in the OT was much more moral in comparison. And- God is holy and wanted Israel preserved- and those groups who went against Israel were far from innocent. And- like it or not- girls were easily married, integrated, and controlled- their time being completely given over to being wives, mothers, and doing things necessary for basic survival (if they didn't die in childbirth first). Boys always would have more freedom and when they became men, would actually have a chance of taking up arms and killing those around them. In such a world- where even the Israelites had difficulty following God- the chances of innocent boys becoming innocent men weren't likely. It was all about ensuring that ALL of us past, present, and future had a way to salvation.
 
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sdowney717

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Has this been mentioned yet?
If I can add in one more thing to the question of why God wanted the people of that land utterly destroyed, man women and child, it is this.

Read Gen 6 when God also killed everything on the earth with the breath of life. (air breathers). This judgement was hastened by the fallen Angels, sons of God, (same type as mentioned in Job referring to angels) taking 'wives among daughters of men.
This corrupted the whole earth to the point God said, kill everything and let us start anew.

The gen 6 account also says 'and also afterwards', that is AFTER the flood.

4 The Nephilim (Giants) were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Search for the giants, nephilim, rephaim, etc... mentioned in the old testament wars. These nephilim creatures have been built back into the dna of those nations, somehow it happened again, and God told Israel they must be wiped out, completely destroyed. These nephilim, offspring of woman and fallen angels, God considers a part of the human race contaminated by fallen angels.

If God set such a severe judgement the first time during Noah's time, He certainly would not let the second nephilim ingress go unpunished.

Both Jude and Peter in new testament scriptures mention the fallen angels who did this and also the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrha, (as Jude relates 'in like manner') to utter destruction, man, woman, child.

Numbers 13:33
33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

Amos 2:9
God is saying here
“Yet I destroyed the Amorites before them,
though they were tall as the cedars
and strong as the oaks.

I destroyed their fruit above
and their roots below.

Amorites were part of the Nephilim.

Deut 2:
10 (The Emim had dwelt there in times past, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim. 11 They were also regarded as giants, like the Anakim, but the Moabites call them Emim. 12 The Horites formerly dwelt in Seir, but the descendants of Esau dispossessed them and destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their place, just as Israel did to the land of their possession which the Lord gave them.)

Deut 3
8 “And at that time we took the land from the hand of the two kings of the Amorites who were on this side of the Jordan, from the River Arnon to Mount Hermon 9 (the Sidonians call Hermon Sirion, and the Amorites call it Senir), 10 all the cities of the plain, all Gilead, and all Bashan, as far as Salcah and Edrei, cities of the kingdom of Og in Bashan.

11 “For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the giants.[a] Indeed his bedstead was an iron bedstead. (Is it not in Rabbah of the people of Ammon?) Nine cubits is its length and four cubits its width, according to the standard cubit.

Joshua 17
14 Then the children of Joseph spoke to Joshua, saying, “Why have you given us only one lot and one share to inherit, since we are a great people, inasmuch as the Lord has blessed us until now?”

15 So Joshua answered them, “If you are a great people, then go up to the forest country and clear a place for yourself there in the land of the Perizzites and the giants, since the mountains of Ephraim are too confined for you.”

Then all the way to David and Goliath.
4 And a champion went out from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. 5 He had a bronze helmet on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. 6 And he had bronze armor on his legs and a bronze javelin between his shoulders. 7 Now the staff of his spear was like a weaver’s beam, and his iron spearhead weighed six hundred shekels; and a shield-bearer went before him.8 Then he stood and cried out to the armies of Israel, and said to them, “Why have you come out to line up for battle? Am I not a Philistine, and you the servants of Saul? Choose a man for yourselves, and let him come down to me. 9 If he is able to fight with me and kill me, then we will be your servants. But if I prevail against him and kill him, then you shall be our servants and serve us.” 10 And the Philistine said, “I defy the armies of Israel this day; give me a man, that we may fight together.” 11 When Saul and all Israel heard these words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid.

These giant nephilim were part of Satan's plan to attempt to stop the coming of the messiah, Jesus. Since Satan knew that Jesus must not have any fallen angel genetic substance in His earthy being.

It all goes back to the fall in the garden of God, really. When God says.
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.
”

Satan's seed??? The Nephilim!
If you read Enoch, you will find a lot of information about the giants, and what happened.
 
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Antony in Tx

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... And- like it or not- girls were easily married, integrated, and controlled- their time being completely given over to being wives, mothers, and doing things necessary for basic survival (if they didn't die in childbirth first). Boys always would have more freedom and when they became men, would actually have a chance of taking up arms and killing those around them. In such a world- where even the Israelites had difficulty following God- the chances of innocent boys becoming innocent men weren't likely. It was all about ensuring that ALL of us past, present, and future had a way to salvation.

Forgive me if I offend by saying this, but boys/men over the ages are much more likely to have been coerced by someone into taking up arms against their will and being made to slaughter others or be killed themself. Indeed, the traditional punishment for a soldier (usually conscripted, the "volunteer army" is a phenom of the last few decades) who ran from his duty to kill was execution. Being a guy is not all cherries and roses, either.
 
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seashale76

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Forgive me if I offend by saying this, but boys/men over the ages are much more likely to have been coerced by someone into taking up arms against their will and being made to slaughter others or be killed themself. Indeed, the traditional punishment for a soldier (usually conscripted, the "volunteer army" is a phenom of the last few decades) who ran from his duty to kill was execution. Being a guy is not all cherries and roses, either.
I never said it was- but someone kept going on about why virgin girls were spared over boys. I think we often tend to look at things from our 21st century glasses and miss the bigger picture. I'm so not offended either.
 
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truthseeker32 said:
The "it was more merciful to kill the little ones than let them be raised by pagans" argument does not work, since Numbers 31:17-18 tells us that the Israelites took the virgin girls. Why couldn't they have also taken and raised the boys?

Second, the idea that it was merciful to kill the little ones for the sake of their salvation makes the same mistake one makes when arguing that abortion isn't so bad because the infant gets a free ticket to heaven.

Because God didn't command them to we see how when king Saul disobeyed God and left some of the (can't remember the bad guys names) alive they came back later and attacked and enslaved the Israelites. But God hasn't told us to kill unborn children. Perhaps God knows something we don't? Just a hunch.
 
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Maybe this excerpt from "Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction" can help:

"The Book of Genesis covers a vast amount of time, stretching from the beginning of the world down to about 1500 B.C. According to geologists, the earth is at least four billion years old, and some anthropologists believe that we humans have been around at least two million of those years. The authors of Genesis did not know much about this long history, nor did they care. They wished to sketch instead a few highlights about human origins that had particular religious significance for Israel's view of life, and to record a few traditions about their own ancestors that would help them understand how they came to be a people and a nation." (Boadt pg.109)

... and furthermore, we might consider asking ourselves whether many of the stories contained in the Old Testament are History, or Myth, giving consideration to the following excerpts from the same book cited above:

"The stories certainly disturb the modern historian. They have no particular 'facts' that can be located in a given moment, no eyewitness reports, and no direct connections to other events that are known. If taken literally, the dates they do offer cannot be reconciled with the findings of geology about the age of the earth, nor do the lifespans of people conform to the ages of ancient human remains studied by anthropologists. They are much more like "model" stories of how things should have been at the beginning, and resemble the literary creations of other ancient peoples. In all of them the moment of creation was not like any subsequent period of time. In that time the gods spoke directly to people. To the ancient mind it was a golden age; it was primeval time before history began.

In ancient thought, such time was expressed by means of certain traditional themes or motifs that were different from everyday language and experience. This type of literature is known everywhere as myth. Myths are not all of one kind, nor do they only speak of creation. They also tell stories of the gods, or of legendary heroes of old, or of the origins of customs and ethnic groups. In many cases, the myth is tied closely to a ritual action in worship and forms the dramatic explanation for an actual celebration. In other cases, the myth is etiological, which means 'explaining the causes' of something, such as why a holy place has its name, or why the gods made a certain creature, or why some tribe follows unusual customs. Myth allows us to speak of events of primal importance at the very beginning of time because it does not depend on knowing the scientific facts, but upon understanding the inner meaning of what happened and what purpose stands behind the event. It especially concerns itself with divine beings and their relation to the human world. It is not history in the strict sense, bit it surely is not anti-historical either. It is at least profoundly historical in outlook, for all ancient peoples knew that gods acted according to their relation with humanity. Past events and experience formed the grounds for future expectations of divine acts. By understanding the past we can better direct our lives, our worship, our prayers, to the gods, and better know what choices to make in the present moment.

The common themes and motifs used in myths are the symbols cherished by all ancient civilizations. Thees include creation in or near water, a fight among the gods for order in the universe, the defeat of chaos by a hero god, the making of humans from mud or other lowly material, and a death and rebirth of the hero god parallel to the annual winter and spring cycle of nature. They explore the basic contrasts of nature: sun and earth, light and darkness, water and drought, male and female, gods and human creatures.

Genesis 1-11 incorporates many such elements into its stories, and many of its individual incidents find parallels in the myths of other ancient Near Eastern peoples, especially the Canaanites, Babylonians and Egyptians. Clearly, the biblical tradition did not hesitate to make use of these literary forms. But this does not mean that the biblical 'myth' always has the same view of the world as does the original pagan story. So we must be careful to distinguish our use of the word 'myth' on two levels.

On the first level, myth is a story using traditional motifs and themes. It is not scientific or historical in outlook as we would expect; it is more like folktale, but it does convey how the Israelites saw the shape of the world---it was their "science," so to speak. A very good example of this use of myth is the description of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2: life originated in the East; there was a central source of water which split into the great rivers of the earth; the first man was made out of dust and the first woman out of a rib; God planted two special and unusual trees in the garden---the tree of life and the tree of good and evil; there was harmony between humans and animals in the beginning. These were all familiar parts of ancient descriptions of the world, and since Israel accepted them as true, we can say that the Bible contains many myths simply because ancient Israelites were not as sophisticated in their knowledge as we are.

On a second level, however, myth is a "theological" explanation of our relation to the gods, and often refers to ancient beliefs of a polytheistic nature in which natural powers were manifestations of the divine, where the gods were symbols of fertility and bound to the seasonal pattern of rainy and dry seasons, where each year the gods must reassert their power over the forces of chaos that threaten the world. When myth is used in this sense, we must be more careful about calling the biblical stories myths, for the authors of Genesis consciously intended to refute and contradict such a view of religion by reworking the traditional stories to remove any idea that there is more than one God, that the world is subject of chaos, that God is callous or uncaring, or that superstitious sexual practices are needed to renew nature. By telling the story of Genesis 1-11 as they did, stressing Yahweh's freedom and power versus human refusal of responsibility, the Israelites demythologized the myths---they destroyed the heart of pagan belief and reinterpreted the real meaning of the world in light of the one God who had revealed himself as Savior and Ruler to Moses." (Boadt pgs. 130-132)

My thoughts: I think it helps when reading many of the stories contained within the Old Testament to regard them as containing important lessons, and not concern ourselves so much with the historical portrayal of God we sometimes find in them, as expressed by their ancient Israelite authors (and there were several authors/editors involved over many centuries). For example, take the story of Lot's wife, who turned into a pillar of salt upon looking back. Compare the message contained within this story to the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ, who teaches us that "Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) In other words, once we have chosen to repent; to turn from our sin in order to enter into communion with God in the Holy Spirit (which is the definition of the Kingdom of Heaven according to the Apostle Paul in Romans 14:17), then we must never turn back to pursuing sin, but remain always on the path of righteousness. If we do turn back again towards sin, then our spirit, deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit, becomes stagnant -- dead as a pillar of salt -- a spiritual state that renders it extremely difficult to effectively turn back again towards God with a saving repentance.

Hopefully this one example will help us to understand how we should approach our Old Testament readings. There are of course countless others that we could allude to. Please note that these excerpts I've shared here are from a textbook that has been assigned for me to study because of my participation in the late vocations program with Saint Vladimir's Seminary. The texts on the Old Testament that I was assigned to study while enrolled at St. Tikhon's Seminary back in the late 80's were similar in their approach.
 
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... And as far as God's commandment to the Israelites to mercilessly destroy its enemies, including the women and children so as to completely eradicate and obliterate them, it is merely a story which allegorically teaches us what we must do in our own spiritual lives if we are to receive the Kingdom of Heaven (the promised land). For we must in fact fight mercilessly against our spiritual enemies, which include our own passions and selfish, sinful desires and will, as well as satan and his fallen angels who seek to keep us from increasing our communion with God. We can never cease our efforts to destroy these enemies of ours which threaten to separate us from this communion, and must show no pity on our spiritual enemies due to our love of sinful pleasure.

This Old Testament message is again echoed by our Lord when He teaches us that "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force." (Matthew 11:12) The "violence" through which we will succeed in seizing the Kingdom for ourselves is our fervent and never-ending repentance, which consists of zealously pursuing unceasing prayer of the heart, abstinence from sinful pleasure both physical and psychological in nature, and alms-giving/serving others, for the sake of pleasing God.
 
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