How Do You NOT Forgive A Man's Sins

[DaDad]

To All,

It seems that modern Christianity is focused on not offending anyone. And so we readily forgive another's trespasses whether asked for or not. But is this really correct?

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”​

The question is, under what circumstances should we NOT "forgive" the sins of our fellow man?!?

It would seem to me that part of the consideration is that we are NOT to judge outside the church. However we ARE to judge within the church. As such, I presume that if we confront a person inside the church (Pastor or otherwise) who has sinned (i.e., as Paul confronted Peter) but that person does not repent then we SHOULD retain the sins of that person until he/she repents.

And of course we are admonished that if we fail to warn others of consequences of sin, then their blood will be on our heads, so too we must hold fast the accountability within the church.

Or so it would seem,
DaDad

 

[Southernscotty]

Matt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Matt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Paul tells us to go to the brother in the church and tell him of his sin, If he persist, Then take another brother and confront him. But if He still persist them remove him as per
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Dave-W]

Paul told Timothy to rebuke and exhort with with all authority.

We miss a lot with a lack of congregational correction.

 

[HTacianas]

To All,

It seems that modern Christianity is focused on not offending anyone. And so we readily forgive another's trespasses whether asked for or not. But is this really correct?

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”​

The question is, under what circumstances should we NOT "forgive" the sins of our fellow man?!?

It would seem to me that part of the consideration is that we are NOT to judge outside the church. However we ARE to judge within the church. As such, I presume that if we confront a person inside the church (Pastor or otherwise) who has sinned (i.e., as Paul confronted Peter) but that person does not repent then we SHOULD retain the sins of that person until he/she repents.

And of course we are admonished that if we fail to warn others of consequences of sin, then their blood will be on our heads, so too we must hold fast the accountability within the church.

Or so it would seem,
DaDad

I understand what you are saying but you've quoted an inappropriate verse to illustrate it. John 20:23 is a church order commandant granting the apostles the authority to forgive sins in the place of Christ. It's not a general precept given to a layman.

We do not have the option of refusing to forgive a person who harms us as is commanded at Matthew 18:

Mat 18:35 - “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

 

[Neostarwcc]

Christians forgive the sins of others because Jesus told us to forgive them and to forgive them unconditionally. It sounds unfair but sometimes life is unfair.

 

[DaDad]

I understand what you are saying but you've quoted an inappropriate verse to illustrate it. John 20:23 is a church order commandant granting the apostles the authority to forgive sins in the place of Christ. It's not a general precept given to a layman.

We do not have the option of refusing to forgive a person who harms us as is commanded at Matthew 18:

Mat 18:35 - “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Hi HT,
It seems the distinction still resides in the concept of who we can judge. If they're outside the church then we are NOT to judge them, and must forgive them. If they're in the church we must confront them and if they repent then they're forgiven. But if they're as "SOUTHERNSCOTTY" observed:

1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.​

... then we MUST retain their sin in hopes of their ultimate salvation.

Hope this helps,
DaDad

Thanks to:

.

You found the verse I was thinking of, and beat me to it!

 

[woobadooba]

To All,

It seems that modern Christianity is focused on not offending anyone. And so we readily forgive another's trespasses whether asked for or not. But is this really correct?

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”​

The question is, under what circumstances should we NOT "forgive" the sins of our fellow man?!?

It would seem to me that part of the consideration is that we are NOT to judge outside the church. However we ARE to judge within the church. As such, I presume that if we confront a person inside the church (Pastor or otherwise) who has sinned (i.e., as Paul confronted Peter) but that person does not repent then we SHOULD retain the sins of that person until he/she repents.

And of course we are admonished that if we fail to warn others of consequences of sin, then their blood will be on our heads, so too we must hold fast the accountability within the church.

Or so it would seem,
DaDad

The "if" coupled with "confess" in the following verse says a lot about forgiveness being conditional:
1 John 1:9 NKJV "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

And how about this verse:
Isaiah 2:8-9 NKJV "Their land is also full of idols; They worship the work of their own hands, That which their own fingers have made. People bow down, And each man humbles himself; Therefore do not forgive them."

Context is key to understanding.

 

[tulc]

I suspect the Bible's admonishing isn't that our forgiving others is about the other person sins, our forgiving is to help us to let go of the wrongs others do to us. There are a lot of people in our lives who will never ask for forgiveness. That sin is between them and the Lord. But when we don't forgive others? That's a problem that affects us. Unforgiveness will eventually color every relationship in our lives. See the difference? We forgive not for the people who hurt us, we forgive because if we don't they hurt us even more.
tulc(just his thoughts on the subject)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul told Timothy to rebuke and exhort with with all authority.

We miss a lot with a lack of congregational correction.

The trouble is that many churches have overbalanced on the side of judgment and condemnation and have driven many potential converts away from them.

Jesus was quite serious when He said for those who have not sinned, cast the first stone. the trouble is that there are too many self-righteous, holier than thou religious people trying to take specks out of the eyes of others when they have great logs in their own.

 

[Kenny'sID]

God requires us to ask forgiveness, are we better than God in that we aren't supposed to require someone to ask?

Someone here mentioned it was, or seems unfair that we have to forgive always, but if someone has to ask, that makes all the difference in the world. Generally, if someone tells me they are sorry, I want to forgive them, seems fair and it's very easy to do. Actually I want to forgive them before they ask, but only if they ask. On the other hand, someone walks away with my wallet, still has it and my money, he's standing right there, and I'm supposed to forgive him when he couldn't care less, and is practically still doing the action?

A sincere apology in that case would be give it back and apologize, then forgiveness is easy to me and probably most Christians, some people maybe not so much. if he explained he needed it to feed his family, it might even turn out well for him.

This is one of the major moral questions that I've been left unsure of for quit some time. It just feels more normal that they should ask , and once again God requires it and we have the Holy Spirit/mind of God, so it make perfect sense I would feel that way. Yet I can't make the claim one way or another until I'm sure.

 

[DaDad]

The trouble is that many churches have overbalanced on the side of judgment ...

I guess we all have our perspectives, but it seems to me that GOD actually is concerned about the integrity of the church, whether the "hireling" is shearing the sheep; whether wolves are devouring the sheep; or whether the "sheep" aren't actually GOATS:

Acts 5:1 But a man named Anani′as with his wife Sapphi′ra sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. ...​

So once again it appears that SouthernScotty came the closest to the sentiments which I believe are correct:

1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.​

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I guess we all have our perspectives, but it seems to me that GOD actually is concerned about the integrity of the church, whether the "hireling" is shearing the sheep; whether wolves are devouring the sheep; or whether the "sheep" aren't actually GOATS:

Acts 5:1 But a man named Anani′as with his wife Sapphi′ra sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. ...​

So once again it appears that SouthernScotty came the closest to the sentiments which I believe are correct:



Thanks,
DaDad

The trouble is that these things happened in a church that had the Holy Spirit working in it.

Today's churches don't.

This is because today's churches are nothing like the first century church. They have replaced the reality and power of the Holy Spirit with ceremony and ritual, and are a factionised, divided group of man-made and directed organisations.

There is more Christian grace in the chair that I am sitting on than exists in most of our denominational churches. Therefore most "correction" of sin is based on gossip, judgmentalism and condemnation, and I don't see any of that listed in the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Dave-W]

God requires us to ask forgiveness, are we better than God in that we aren't supposed to require someone to ask?

Did our Lord require the Roman Soldiers to ask for forgiveness for nailing him to the cross?

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Did our Lord require the Roman Soldiers to ask for forgiveness for nailing him to the cross?

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

I'm not saying one cannot forgive without the offender asking, but what are we required to do?

 

[Dave-W]

I'm not saying one cannot forgive without the offender asking, but what are we required to do?

We are COMMANDED to forgive.
I am not sure how “required” fits in.

 

[Kenny'sID]

We are COMMANDED to forgive.
I am not sure how “required” fits in.

And therein lies my problem, it seems right, the bible doesn't seem to l clarify, ans as I say, I'm not sure either.

 

[Dave-W]

As I have said in other threads, much of this stuff cannot be reduced to a hard and fast decision that fits every situation because life and people are more complex than that.

The door certainly seems to be left open for some rare instances where sins are NOT forgiven, at least temporarily.

 

[DaDad]

We are COMMANDED to forgive. ...

YESSSSSS, we're commanded to forgive THOSE OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH. But if you're part of the church and are unrepentant in your sin, then the church is required to WITHHOLD FORGIVENESS.

Or so it seems to me,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

And a note to all,

I appreciate having this discussion, and hope that each of us can arrive to GOD's perspective in ALL things Christian.

With Very Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[Dave-W]

YESSSSSS, we're commanded to forgive THOSE OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH. But if you're part of the church and are unrepentant in your sin, then the church is required to WITHHOLD FORGIVENESS.

The text says in several places to forgive your BROTHER from your heart. Your brother is a true believer in the church.