How do you know if Paul was speaking gods words and not just his opinion?

Dave RP

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I had a chat with a Christian friend and was quoted from Paul's letters to someone (I'm sorry I forgot which particular letter), and I said I can understand why you believe that what Jesus said was from God, but Paul was just a bloke stating an opinion, wasn't he?

My Christian friend said that as it was in the Bible it was the word of God, but I thought that as Paul wrote after Jesus had died and his letters were only selected for use in the Bible by human beings it can't possibly be the word of God.

So if anyone can help with the justification for Pauls letters etc being the word of God I'd be grateful, one person said that Paul had himself stated he was speaking God's words, but lots of people have said that. Is there something we are missing?
 

Albion

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Paul was commissioned by God, if we are to believe the Bible. The epistles of Paul were accepted by those to whom they were originally directed and the early church considered them to be divinely inspired, so your friend is correct. As a matter of fact, the Bible books, all of them, have been considered to be divine revelation since before they were brought together officially and called "The Bible."

So you may say, "This could have been a mistake, no?" and that's true, but if so, the entirety of the religion is reduced to folklore. Yet, the Bible, taken as a whole, has stood up to enormous scrutiny from skeptics over the years and proven its reliability again and again, therefore we take it for being valid.
 
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Dave RP

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It's a bit of a circular argument isn't it? Paul was commissioned by God, so says the Bible because Paul said he was and the people who put the Bible together believed him. I understand there were many more books which were rejected from the Bible by men, but surely there must be opinion involved in anything post Jesus, because thereafter no one had a direct connection with God? This came about because I was quoted 1st Corinthians or 1st Thessalonians about something, and I said that it was Pauls opinion/ interpretation - nothing more. That went down well!
 
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Norbert L

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You might want to compare 1 Corinthians 7:6 and Matthew 19:8 about distinguishing between individual thought and someone who is capable of sharing the very word of God. I believe Paul had that very sound mind (Galatians 5:22-23) when expressing the word of God in Christ's name, versus giving his own opinion about how God's will should be applied.
 
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Albion

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It's a bit of a circular argument isn't it? Paul was commissioned by God, so says the Bible because Paul said he was and the people who put the Bible together believed him. I understand there were many more books which were rejected from the Bible by men, but surely there must be opinion involved in anything post Jesus, because thereafter no one had a direct connection with God? This came about because I was quoted 1st Corinthians or 1st Thessalonians about something, and I said that it was Pauls opinion/ interpretation - nothing more. That went down well!
I don't think it's "circular," although I appreciate your point. I'd put it this way--it all hangs together or it all falls together. Paul claimed a commission from God, he was received by the other church leaders and the people as not being a phony, the early church considered his letters to be inspired, the church councils that compiled the Bible scrutinized all the would-be writings that some people or other thought might be inspired, and they decided to include Paul's epistles. So that forms the basis of the faith, from a documentary POV.

The Bible has stood the test of time, repeatedly rebutting the criticisms concerning non-theological matters contained in it. And the theological ones are beyond proving scientifically. So one can accept the Bible, with Paul, or discount the whole thing as being just another set of sacred writings.

But no other of the world's great religions has anything like it--a record of thousands of years of man's interaction with God. They have inspirational poetry, instructions for daily living, a collection of tales with no historic context, or something of that sort, but nothing like the Bible.

In fact, it can be argued that there is nothing like Christianity. Other religions either have borrowed their basic concepts of God and Man from the Judeo-Christian traditions and writings or else they don't posit the existence of a supreme being at all, being more like ethical systems or philosophies than what we would think of as religions.
 
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Dave RP

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I don't think it's "circular," although I appreciate your point. I'd put it this way--it all hangs together or it all falls together. Paul claimed a commission from God, he was received by the other church leaders and the people as not being a phony, the early church considered his letters to be inspired, the church councils that compiled the Bible scrutinized all the would-be writings that some people or other thought might be inspired, and they decided to include Paul's epistles. So that forms the basis of the faith, from a documentary POV.

The Bible has stood the test of time, repeatedly withstanding the criticisms concerning non-theological matters, and the theological ones are beyond proving scientifically. So one can accept the Bible, with Paul, or discount the whole thing as being just another set of sacred writings.

But no other of the world's great religions has anything like it--a record of thousands of years of man's interaction with God. They have inspirational poetry, instructions for daily living, a collection of tales with no historic context, or something of that sort, but nothing like the Bible. In fact, it can be argued that there is nothing like Christianity. Other religions either have borrowed their basis concepts of God and Man from the Judeo-Christian traditions and writings or else don't posit the existence of a supreme being at all, being more like ethical systems or philosophies than what we would think of as religions.

Thanks, very interesting.

Incidentally doesn't the Quran also follow the same timeline as the Bible, I understand it mentions nearly all the Prophets mentioned in the Christian Bible and actually uses Jesus name more than Mohammed. It acknowledges the same God as the Christians and Jews, so I guess Muslims would say they have developed Judeo-Christian traditions rather than borrowed them, but maybe that's just semantics.

As it is supposed to be the same God, it's a shame that all the religions can't get along a little better isn't it? If it were just left to "people" rather than clerics, politicians and the military, we'd all get along ok in my opinion.
 
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RDKirk

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It's a bit of a circular argument isn't it? Paul was commissioned by God, so says the Bible because Paul said he was and the people who put the Bible together believed him. I understand there were many more books which were rejected from the Bible by men, but surely there must be opinion involved in anything post Jesus, because thereafter no one had a direct connection with God? This came about because I was quoted 1st Corinthians or 1st Thessalonians about something, and I said that it was Pauls opinion/ interpretation - nothing more. That went down well!

It depends first on whether you accept in the first place the mystical aspect of the scripture writers being "inspired' by a "Holy Spirit." And as well, whether you accept that at least others around them and immediately successive to them were inspired by the Holy Spirit to recognize inspired works, copy them, distribute them, cherish them, and teach them.

If we don't accept that, then there is no scripture. Jesus Himself wrote nothing--all the "quotations" we believe we have of Jesus are the result of the same people who validate Paul's writing and Paul's inspiration. If they were not inspired correctly (or at all) in one case, then they were not in the other. In fact, we have earlier evidence of acceptance and validation by the Church of Paul's writing--as early as 95AD--than we have of any of the gospels.

With regard to 1 Corinthians 7:6, Paul was making a distinction between one instruction in which he was actually quoting Jesus and another instruction derived from his own inspiration by the Holy Spirit (which he mentions explicitly 1 Corinthians 7:40). This is nothing more than what Jesus had already said:

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."
-- John 16

This is a declaration from Jesus--if we are to accept the validation of those who came later, the same who validate Paul--that the gospels are certainly not His last word to the Church.
 
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Albion

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Thanks, very interesting.

Incidentally doesn't the Quran also follow the same timeline as the Bible
Only to the extent that it borrowed copiously from the Bible, which the Koran itself virtually admits is the case.

As it is supposed to be the same God, it's a shame that all the religions can't get along a little better isn't it?
It's not the same god. The idea of God in the Judeo-Christian understanding was borrowed to a certain extent by Mohammad who then amalgamated those concepts with the pagan Arabic ideas of God that he was raised with.
 
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RDKirk

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It's not the same god. The idea of God in the Judeo-Christian understanding was borrowed to a certain extent by Mohammad who then amalgamated those concepts with the pagan Arabic ideas of God that he was raised with.

Yes.

There are three other people active on the Internet with my name. But when I read what they write, what they do, and what others say about them, I'm confident they are not me.
 
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JoeP222w

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The Bible is the inerrant word of God. This includes Paul's letters in the Bible. Paul was used through inspiration of the Holy Spirit in concern to his letters found in the Bible.

But by examining the context of the letters and their consistency with the rest of the Bible, it can be affirmed that Paul's letters are not simply his opinion.
 
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devolved

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The Bible has stood the test of time, repeatedly rebutting the criticisms concerning non-theological matters contained in it. And the theological ones are beyond proving scientifically. So one can accept the Bible, with Paul, or discount the whole thing as being just another set of sacred writings.

This is actually demonstrably not the case, especially when it comes to certain objective clashes with both historical and scientific reality... or even its own claims that seem to be inconsistent and are generally rationalized away in order to preserve some inerrant view.

Some of the more progressive Christians religions today, and even some which are more fundamentalist, no longer claim that Bible is inerrant when it comes to the historical record. At the very least is that scholarly consensus of people and Christians who do some deep research on this subject know that there are factual issues and problems.

But no other of the world's great religions has anything like it--a record of thousands of years of man's interaction with God. They have inspirational poetry, instructions for daily living, a collection of tales with no historic context, or something of that sort, but nothing like the Bible.

But you are describing a preferred and a rather subjective judgement of religious dynamics. Every culture has instructions for daily living that ties into the moral narrative of religion for validation.

The fact that Christianity has a more developed one is a more geographic and state-driven cultural development that would explain it, rather than a divine one.

Hence, we don't really see any exceptional knowledge beyond its time in this particular culture. You still have the same old misconceptions, and amazingly God fails to mention basic things that would help people save 3 of out 5 of their children from dying prior the age of 5.

I think any of us transplanted in these societies would at the very least mentioned something about germ theory of diseases. It would alleviate a tremendous amounts of suffering through ignorance of this subject.

In short, these conceptions of God doesn't seem to be extra-cultural. These seem to follow and build off the per-existing cultural narrative, while borrowing some elements from their immediate surroundings.


In fact, it can be argued that there is nothing like Christianity. Other religions either have borrowed their basic concepts of God and Man from the Judeo-Christian traditions and writings or else they don't posit the existence of a supreme being at all, being more like ethical systems or philosophies than what we would think of as religions.

Actually, quite the opposite can be argued, that Judaism is derivative of a wide variety of local traditions that eventually was written down in some consistent manner and formulated through a nationalistic narrative of the day.

Christianity then builds of that mindset and follows the same nationalistic route when it comes to using a religion to build a traditional and moral culture of the day.

When we evaluate the dynamics of its establishment, it doesn't seem to be differing.

In fact, it would be different if the surrounding cultures were attesting the exceeding greatness of Israel, especially during the time of David or Solomon reign. Ironically, both go virtually unmentioned in surrounding historical narrative, and the God of Israel is primarily a nationalistic God that we only find in historical narrative of Israel.

Hence, it's a very good indicator that it's merely a surviving religion that avoided being falsified through setting up unfalsifiable premise of invisible God that acts in "mysterious ways" instead of testable ones.
 
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Sultan Of Swing

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I had a chat with a Christian friend and was quoted from Paul's letters to someone (I'm sorry I forgot which particular letter), and I said I can understand why you believe that what Jesus said was from God, but Paul was just a bloke stating an opinion, wasn't he?

My Christian friend said that as it was in the Bible it was the word of God, but I thought that as Paul wrote after Jesus had died and his letters were only selected for use in the Bible by human beings it can't possibly be the word of God.

So if anyone can help with the justification for Pauls letters etc being the word of God I'd be grateful, one person said that Paul had himself stated he was speaking God's words, but lots of people have said that. Is there something we are missing?
The Apostle Peter, who lived and walked with Jesus personally, handpicked by Jesus and promised His Spirit, backed up that Paul's writings are Scripture.

2 Peter 3:

"And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."
 
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Albion

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This is actually demonstrably not the case, especially when it comes to certain objective clashes with both historical and scientific reality
Sorry, but I have to disagree. We can of course point to trivialities that do nothing to alter the actual record--that it wasn't the Red Sea that parted but, rather, the Reed Sea, or that the great flood didn't actually cover every last inch of ground on the planet, although it covered everything known to the ancient Hebrews. Such assaults on the reliability of the Bible are considered by most educated people to be contrivances.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Sorry, but I have to disagree. We can of course point to trivialities that do nothing to alter the actual record--that it wasn't the Red Sea that parted but, rather, the Reed Sea, or that the great flood didn't actually cover every last inch of ground on the planet, although it covered everything known to the ancient Hebrews. Such assaults on the reliability of the Bible are considered by most educated people to be contrivances.

Then you're using a definition of "stood the test of time" that I personally wouldn't. How many things have to be wrong until something does not stand the test of time?
 
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RDKirk

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Then you're using a definition of "stood the test of time" that I personally wouldn't. How many things have to be wrong until something does not stand the test of time?

I would point out that until fairly recently in Christian history, there wasn't a particular insistence on face-value historical inerrancy. For instance, the Church 500 years ago had no problem accepting that the earth was spherical.
 
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Sorry, but I have to disagree. We can of course point to trivialities that do nothing to alter the actual record--that it wasn't the Red Sea that parted but, rather, the Reed Sea, or that the great flood didn't actually cover every last inch of ground on the planet, although it covered everything known to the ancient Hebrews. Such assaults on the reliability of the Bible are considered by most educated people to be contrivances.

Well, I'm actually such an educated person. And I was a fundamentalist until I pursued higher level of formal Biblical education. And these inconsistencies surface naturally when you actually study the subject from a detached perspective of a scholar, as opposed through a perspective of Christian scholar with a fundamentalist background and bias.

Since you've mentioned Exodus story, the entire story rests on the plausibility of the logistics necessary to support the numbers described. It's hardly trivial when you actually attempt to cast this story in any kind of observable reality. For example, consider how long it would take for 2 million people and animals to drink and gather water from a single source flowing from a rock in a wilderness. We are talking about the population of Chicago with all of their pets flocking around a single source of water. And that's just a single example of what I'm talking about.

And all of that is before we get to historical validity of certain claims (I've mentioned the "world-wide fame of Salomon's wisdom" which no one seemed to have mentioned in parallel historical records).

And all of this prior to getting into textual criticism as to whether something is borrowed from extra-cultural sources, interpolated, or actually happened and written by the said authors.

I think the claim is quite the opposite. You would have to be uneducated in these issues to claim that Bible is a reliable source of historical narrative, when in fact it has a very heavy nationalistic propensity to exaggerate the historical achievement of group of people that show no unusual development or exceptional knowledge and understanding beyond their time.
 
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devolved

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That's why I said "most educated people." ;)

Well, all of us can play "No true Scotsman", and it's a fun game to play, except that each argument stands and falls on its own, especially in context of a forum.

Otherwise we'll have a fun time playing "My scholar is better than yours", while accomplishing absolutely nothing.

In short, would you like me to give a long list of "most educated" people who would say otherwise?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I would point out that until fairly recently in Christian history, there wasn't a particular insistence on face-value historical inerrancy. For instance, the Church 500 years ago had no problem accepting that the earth was spherical.
My understanding is that it's a good deal more recent than that - according to the science & religion course I took recently; by the early 20th century, it seems that most American clergy had been reconciled to an ancient Earth and evolution.

It was the 12 'Fundamentals' tracts published in 1910-15 that started a wave of naive literalism, biblical inerrancy, and fragments of 19th century millenarism - predictions of apocalypse, obsession with the Book of Revelations, etc. When the rapid growth of public high schools exposed rural communities to modern science, evolution in particular became a hot-potato, leading to the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925.

Things went relatively quiet until the 1960s when a new wave of science education (prompted by the Russian Sputnik) hit the rural South and Mid-west, and evolution became an issue again. The evolution education bans in Arkansas were overturned by the Supreme Court in 1968, and fundamentalists turned to the 'equal time' strategy and Creation Science for education.

Further setbacks in the late 1980s (the Supreme Court dubbed creation science religious doctrine) led to neo-creationism, which dropped explicitly religious themes for 'Abrupt Appearance' and 'Intelligent Design'.

So I've been told...
 
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aieyiamfu

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Paul was commissioned by God, if we are to believe the Bible. The epistles of Paul were accepted by those to whom they were originally directed and the early church considered them to be divinely inspired, so your friend is correct. As a matter of fact, the Bible books, all of them, have been considered to be divine revelation since before they were brought together officially and called "The Bible."

So you may say, "This could have been a mistake, no?" and that's true, but if so, the entirety of the religion is reduced to folklore. Yet, the Bible, taken as a whole, has stood up to enormous scrutiny from skeptics over the years and proven its reliability again and again, therefore we take it for being valid.
What evidence do we have that the early church thought the Pauline epistles were divinely inspired? And who but men assembled these books rejecting some and accepting others?
 
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