:::How Do You Knock Someone Down (Such That You Can Build Them Up?)

[NDL]

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[A_Thinker]

One of the things that I often see, which troubles me, is that people within the Church have an unrealistically high opinion of their knowledge, discernment, and understanding.

This is not a matter of pointing out a speck in someone else's eye, while neglecting the log in my own eye.

Rev 3:17: "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—"

First, we see that the opinion that the Laodicean church has of itself is this: "I have need of nothing."

"I have need of nothing."

Yet, the true state of the Laodicean church swung to the opposite extreme: they were wretched, miserable, and blind (among other things).

***
I remember that when I lived in New York, I attended a church that was "off," but it took me time to figure out what was wrong, as nothing on the surface indicated that something was wrong.

In said church, the teaching was expository; the sermons were exegetically sound; the topic matter had some degree of depth. Yet something was "off"...

I finally learned why I perceived a lack of power in this church: everything was a facade.

The sermons were excellent, but I finally learned that ALL of the material came straight from the Pastor's seminary days, notes and all, while it was adapted for today's every day life.

The church was tiny, as it clearly wasn't blessed by God. Yet the leadership in the church saw it differently: "We're tiny because our work is exegetically sound; we're the remnant; therefore, those seeking to have their ears tickled don't want to come here." Since then, I have come across this pattern several times.

How do you overcome a false sense of confidence and worth?

***
I recently had to tear someone down, although I don't like tearing people down. For years, I have encouraged this person to study, that they might have the ability to verbalize and reason like an adult (1 John 2:13-14).

My exhortations went unheeded.

This believer's fruit is that of a baby, yet they've been saved for decades. This weekend, I tore the bandaid off; I knocked them down:

"It means nothing that you perceive in your spirit that a teaching is off! You cannot verbalize anything (Hebrews 5:14); you operate on what you perceive in your spirit. An infant can discern who is his mother, but he cannot verbalize anything, other than to cry when he is taken out of his mother's arms. So is it with you, yet you view the "check" in your spirit as a sign of maturity (compared to those who're spiritually lifeless), when the reality is that you're no different than a baby who cries when he is taken from his mother's arms!"

***
The last church there was constant contention between myself and others. I can't recall a time when it was said that I was operating in an unbiblical fashion; it was usually: "(we have our traditions), and you, not native to the South, do not understand how and why we operate this way."

The church was not operating and teaching as it ought; the teaching was exegetically correct, but it's longtime members were ignorant of even basic matters; the church wasn't blessed by God, and remained small, yet the reasoning came thus: "we're the remnant, we don't tickle ears, that's why we're small."

What's my concern?

Like Sampson, the Lord departed him, yet he did not know. Thus has the church wandered off the track, yet it does not know (Hosea 7:9).

The church and it's members will soon come under heavy fire, yet it's headed for an epic battle, yet it cannot discern it's true state, nor does it know it's way back (Ps 11:3).

All of it comes because people have an overestimated view of themselves.

I don't like knocking people down. How do you go about ministering to people and situations, to a people that do not discern their true state?

Does scripture ever enjoin us to knock one another down ?

The only biblical example is when Paul exhorts the Corinthian church to excommunicate the sinning brother. But we don't have the power to do such to entire churches.

Accepted church leaders can chastize churches (as did Paul) ... but it's not likely that a lone ranger christian is going to have much of that kind of effect.

Perhaps you ought to leave the "tearing down" to God ... they are His children after all ...

 

[Halbhh]

One of the things that I often see, which troubles me, is that people within the Church have an unrealistically high opinion of their knowledge, discernment, and understanding.

This is not a matter of pointing out a speck in someone else's eye, while neglecting the log in my own eye.

Rev 3:17: "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—"

First, we see that the opinion that the Laodicean church has of itself is this: "I have need of nothing."

"I have need of nothing."

Yet, the true state of the Laodicean church swung to the opposite extreme: they were wretched, miserable, and blind (among other things).

***
I remember that when I lived in New York, I attended a church that was "off," but it took me time to figure out what was wrong, as nothing on the surface indicated that something was wrong.

In said church, the teaching was expository; the sermons were exegetically sound; the topic matter had some degree of depth. Yet something was "off"...

I finally learned why I perceived a lack of power in this church: everything was a facade.

The sermons were excellent, but I finally learned that ALL of the material came straight from the Pastor's seminary days, notes and all, while it was adapted for today's every day life.

The church was tiny, as it clearly wasn't blessed by God. Yet the leadership in the church saw it differently: "We're tiny because our work is exegetically sound; we're the remnant; therefore, those seeking to have their ears tickled don't want to come here." Since then, I have come across this pattern several times.

How do you overcome a false sense of confidence and worth?

***
I recently had to tear someone down, although I don't like tearing people down. For years, I have encouraged this person to study, that they might have the ability to verbalize and reason like an adult (1 John 2:13-14).

My exhortations went unheeded.

This believer's fruit is that of a baby, yet they've been saved for decades. This weekend, I tore the bandaid off; I knocked them down:

"It means nothing that you perceive in your spirit that a teaching is off! You cannot verbalize anything (Hebrews 5:14); you operate on what you perceive in your spirit. An infant can discern who is his mother, but he cannot verbalize anything, other than to cry when he is taken out of his mother's arms. So is it with you, yet you view the "check" in your spirit as a sign of maturity (compared to those who're spiritually lifeless), when the reality is that you're no different than a baby who cries when he is taken from his mother's arms!"

***
The last church there was constant contention between myself and others. I can't recall a time when it was said that I was operating in an unbiblical fashion; it was usually: "(we have our traditions), and you, not native to the South, do not understand how and why we operate this way."

The church was not operating and teaching as it ought; the teaching was exegetically correct, but it's longtime members were ignorant of even basic matters; the church wasn't blessed by God, and remained small, yet the reasoning came thus: "we're the remnant, we don't tickle ears, that's why we're small."

What's my concern?

Like Sampson, the Lord departed him, yet he did not know. Thus has the church wandered off the track, yet it does not know (Hosea 7:9).

The church and it's members will soon come under heavy fire, yet it's headed for an epic battle, yet it cannot discern it's true state, nor does it know it's way back (Ps 11:3).

All of it comes because people have an overestimated view of themselves.

I don't like knocking people down. How do you go about ministering to people and situations, to a people that do not discern their true state?

Well, paradoxically, by building them up with love, which in turn will then help them break free of the places they are stuck in defensively. Because of love, they can learn faster, and hear better. Paul was illustrating this early the the central, key chapter that helps us understand so many hard to explain instructions he gave -- the chapter of 1 Corinthians 8 NIV

By being humble, we allow others to be humble more easily. This sounds good. But...it's not just an aid, but an absolute requirement for us--
Matthew 18 NIV

This lesson slips past us modern Americans so easily, because it's so unlike how we learn to be today in America. We don't value being humble like a child, and the concept is foreign to us. Yet, He says, Christ Himself says, that we must in order to be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, no less. Not just to gain more, but as an absolute requirement, unconditionally.

 

[Sam91]

You have a different take to Jesus' admonitions to the Churches than I. I cried last year while reading Revelation at how gracious Jesus words were in what He said. I didn't see Him as knocking the down but speaking truth to them.

God uses circumstances to teach people, and the Holy Spirit convicts. The enemy seeks to tear down and destroy.

Aren't we told to bear one anothers burdens. To speak Truth in love. If you knock someone down that can wound.

To knock someone down so you can build them up? Is it a worldly thing to do? I do not know. Is it manipulation? I do not know. Is it going beyond what God called you to do in that persons life probably. It could be coming from pride to think one was able and should do it.

Just some thoughts but I do not think it is scriptural. Pray for wisdom in how to act towards the person.

God bless you

Edit: Think on second reading of your opening post that I completely missed your point due to eye strain and no glasses. Sorry.
I am leaving my points about knocking people down though incase something is useful.

 

[NDL]

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[NDL]

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[NDL]

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[A_Thinker]

Here's are examples of "knocking someone down" (making someone assess their true spiritual condition):

Hebrews 5:12: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food."

1 Corinthians 3:1-3: And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Note that these rebukes are coming through a familiar and respected spiritual leader (i.e. Paul). By this point, Paul has established his bonafides through his prior ministry to the referenced churches. Paul has also established his confederacy with the known Apostles (Peter, James, John, etc.).

I will say, though, that if it is God's will that the church be "knocked down" so that it can be built up again, ... His will will be done.

 

[NDL]

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[A_Thinker]

But that isn't my purpose; my purpose is to come up with a way to overcome their stiff necked, ignorant, self reliant, dispositions, such that they can be equipped, discipled, and useful for God's work.

It is interesting that your descriptions of your target audience almost matches God's descriptions of the unreachable Jews.

Honestly, I don't know of a methodology that we are capable of which will overcome stiff-neckedness.

Perhaps you need to pray for God's guidance on this one ...

 

[NDL]

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[NDL]

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[A_Thinker]

******

Here's an actual example of something that transpired:

Bill O'Reilly (Fox News) wrote a book on the life and death of Jesus.

Bill O'Reilly said that Jesus was murdered because He didn't pay His taxes.

Many Christians are viewers of Fox News, thus O'Reilly's activities spilled over into the church (the body of Christ).

Many believers were/are ill equipped to refute O'Reilly's assumption that Jesus was murdered because He didn't pay His taxes.

My concern is that individuals could regularly attend church services week after week, think they're being well fed, yet they're ignorant of even the basic fundamentals of our faith. This is not good. If O'Reilly can confuse them, what do you think a trained Jehovah's Witness might do?

If you regularly attend a "good, Bible teaching, church," yet you're ill equipped on the fundamentals, it makes me wonder what your Pastor is doing?

And...as I have enumerated in posts prior, people who've been churched for a long time don't like to be corrected.

This is a serious matter.

NDL ...

IMO ... Christians who would believe Bill O'Reilly ... that Christ was crucified because He didn't pay His taxes ... have some covert reason to believe in Bill O'Reilly's particular point of view.

(That's in the same category as those who believe christian prosperity teachers who insist that Jesus was rich ... even though He claimed to have no place to lay His head).

Bill O'Reilly is not a christian scholar ... nobody believes that he is ... then why would anyone put their faith in O'Reilly's theological ponderings ?

I do agree that christians who attend a church which has not taught well on the passion of Christ ... are woefully unprepared. I would like to think that zealous christians would not be content to remain in such a church.

 

[NDL]

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[Sam91]

Thank you for explaining. I nearly didn't see it because I had no notification. I do not know what you should do other than pray for wisdom.

I have the same problem but with a friend. A couple of times I have had to just tell her to stop talking as it is blasphemy. Explain the errors and continue. I must say I have given up lately she just won't listen and I see her for a couple minutes here and there.

Someone mentioned the JW's. I couldn't believe it one time when I was returning home from Church and just visiting on the way back when a JW lady came to her door, by appt, the same time as myself. She then changed her view quite quickly into Jesus being created, which point I started being more outspoken rather than chiming in here or there and the lady left. I understand your problem. I can only pray about mine.

 

[Matthew 24 10]

You can beat dog over years to build him up to one day bite your neck at night because of vengeance . If this is the sort of building up then no thanks i don't want to beat somebody to make him stronger .

Our job is to show truth , people have free will to reject it we don't beat them up untill they realise thier mistakes .

 

[NDL]

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[NDL]

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