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How do you feel about Donald Trump declaring a national emergency to build border wall?

Discussion in 'General Politics' started by Junker P Hoodwink, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This government spends more than 5 billion a year just in office supplies I'm sure.

    All the American people are asking is that immigration into this country be done legally, because all sovereign nations have the right to control who enters into their country.

    The left keeps saying they want border security, but they won't pay for any.

    The left says a wall is ineffective, yet we pay for walls to be built and help build them in other countries, to protect people.

    Here's the issue. If it's simply "ineffective" and we likely spend more on office supplies each year, what is the harm?

    I mean, wasteful spending is the name of the game in American government, what's the tiniest bit more for the people most affected by illegal immigration? To make them feel a little better about the security of their nation?

    Yet the left is having an entire conniption fit over the possibility of a border wall and additional security for the security of our nation..

    To me, that is the left saying walls do indeed work and will keep out their future slaves since the dems are willing to die on this hill.

    Well I'm happy to die on this hill too. We are a sovereign nation and as such, have the responsibility to the citizenry to protect their livelihoods, and their borders.

    That's clearly defined as the responsibility of government in the constitution.
     
  2. straykat

    straykat Well-Known Member

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    That's a startling statistic. I hope it's true. I'm a Gen-X'er who grew up through drug and gang culture and know it firsthand. If things are looking up, glory be to God if so. It's the first I've heard of it though.
     
  3. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    So we should throw away 5 billion?

    Which, I suppose, is why Obama deported a record number of illegal aliens. But he focused on getting the dangerous criminals first.

    I notice the bill passed in the democrat-ruled House had billions for border security.

    Yep. Ask the Chinese. And most illegal immigrants and most drugs are coming in through ports of entry.

    Nope. Just a story.

    Five billion here, five billion there; it adds up.

    If they just want to feel better, why don't they just go to a safe place and have a hug?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  4. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Actually, crime, including violent crime, began to decline in the late 80s.

    Here's the bad news; violent crime is up slightly the last two years. And no, I don't think it's something we can blame on Trump. It's still lower than anytime after the mid 1960s, though.
     
  5. straykat

    straykat Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's hard to be optimistic. Especially by statistics. I can count maybe a dozen friends/acquaintances who were killed violently. Some who also killed others violently and are serving life in prison (or at least, may as well.. such as 60 years until parole). Some who died from drugs or at least lost their minds and can't even think correctly. And a myriad of out of wedlock children, divorces, etc.., etc.. I don't know what else to say, but throw my arms up and shrug sometimes..
     
  6. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    I know of places like that, too. But it's not the norm. It's a better society than the one in which I grew up.
     
  7. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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  8. Junker P Hoodwink

    Junker P Hoodwink Member

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    So what? One illegal crossing is too many. The border wall must be built NOW.
     
  9. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi straykat,

    I understand your understanding. However, a lot of that has to do with the circle that you run in and where you live. Just because a statistic says that things are getting better, or worse, it doesn't mean that any particular individual might notice any difference.

    There are individuals who live in inner city neighborhoods that likely hear gunfire from time to time late at night. I've never heard a single shot in 15 years of living in my home. The person who has heard the gunshots may have heard them some 10 times last year. Then some statistic comes out that random shooting is down overall. This year that person hears gunshots 9 times. They aren't likely to acknowledge the decline. They just know that they hear gunshots and even if they were to hear it only 3 times the next year, every time they'd hear it they'd think to themselves, "Oh yea, sure, gunshots are down." Being 'down' doesn't mean that it no longer exists.

    So, someone might read that crime is down, but if they got robbed twice last year, they're not likely to agree. I'm going to guess that since you know some friends/acquaintances who killed people violently, that you likely run in some fairly tough circles. It would, therefore, be expected that you might not see much of the statistical changes.

    There is also the consideration that a lot of times the goalposts are moved. Police may report crime one way for several years and then start reporting them a different way, which can also make statistics phony.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
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  10. straykat

    straykat Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be clear, not anymore. I got away and have lived a mostly solitary life since finding Christ. But I've ended up not knowing exactly how the rest of the world is either, perhaps. Thanks for your post though. You and the Barbarian give plenty of food for thought.
     
  11. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    You want five billion dollars to stop one illegal immigrant?

    And as you learned, most illegal immigrants just come in at ports of entry. A wall would do nothing about them. Why do you think Congress allocated money for border security, instead of wall?
     
  12. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi straykat,

    Well, having been a drug addict myself, and also serving for a time as staff in a rehabilitation center, I've come to understand that a lot of what we believe individually is a product of our life experiences. As a marijuana user for decades, I used to believe that everyone smoked. Some just hid it better than others. Now, being on the other side of that addiction, I realize that I wasn't being truthful in my understanding, but rather using that as an excuse to continue my addiction. If I could justify my addiction by believing that nearly everyone used marijuana, then it was ok. Granted, a lot of people do use marijuana, but it isn't anywhere near 'everyone' or 'almost everyone'.

    I worked for Bellsouth in Miami and there were neighborhoods in the inner city where we were strongly cautioned about leaving anything unsecured or being careful about what was going on around us. However, I generally worked in somewhat more affluent neighborhoods of the middle class and all of those warnings just seemed foreign to me. I could climb a pole with my truck parked beneath and never worried about locking all the doors since I was just up a pole and still was able to watch the vehicle. Some of the inner city technicians told of tales of being in similar circumstances and watching people just start rifling through their vehicles while they were being watched. Or being up a pole or working at a connection point in an alley and hearing gunshots fairly close by. I never experienced any of that in any of the neighborhoods where I worked and so that kind of working condition was hard for me to believe or understand. For those working in such neighborhoods, it was fairly common belief.

    Another thing that I noticed about the techs working in the inner city and the techs working in safer neighborhoods was the individual's ability to trust others. We see this patterned for us a lot on TV crime shows. Police officers are loathe to trust people. Often times, even other law enforcement agencies. I believe this is because they experience the more dangerous aspects of life more than the average person does. Many of them are working in dangerous environments and so they tend to carry that trepidation and fear with them in other areas of their life and their understanding about life in general.

    So, I do understand that we're all products of our life experiences. I understand that because of some of those life experiences we see others differently. Me, I've never been concerned with illegal immigration. Even though I read that it costs us all money, it has never cost me more than I could afford to pay and, being a believer, I don't begrudge those who are poor any blessing that I might provide for them financially, so long as it doesn't then leave me poor. In studying those who seem to be so strongly against immigration, specifically illegal immigration, the experience that I've had in dealing with such people is that they seem to be more mean and greedy about their stuff.

    I had a friend who was STRONGLY against immigrants. I don't think he differentiated between legal and illegal. He was just always bad mouthing them and claiming that he couldn't find work because they were taking all the jobs. However, in years of knowing that man, I knew that he was, by nature, a mean and difficult person to get along with. It didn't surprise me that he couldn't find work and it had nothing to do with someone else taking his job. He just was not a nice person to be around. Every time he'd call, my wife and I would look at each other and question whether we should answer the phone. We knew that we were going to have to listen to some diatribe as to how bad the VA was and the local and national governments are and all the richy riches of the world and, of course, all the immigrants stealing our jobs. Whenever I'd try to bring up faith and hope in Jesus, that would always be something that weak people hang on to. He was just a mean person and his attitude just always reflected that meanness.

    Now, I'm sure that he'd had some tough times in his life. I know for a fact that women would shun him after they knew him for more than a couple of weeks. Because of his constant and insistent complaining of all the ills of the world and how they were ruining his life, no one much wanted to spend time with him. I've been lifelong friends of one of his short time girlfriends and every time his name comes up, she gets a sad look on her face and just bemoans how his nature had ruined his life. Of course, I'm not saying that everyone against immigration is quite so negative in their overall thinking, but when I hear someone that seems to be living a life near equal to mine as far as finances decry that immigrants are costing us boatloads of money, I just don't get it. Like I say, my understanding is that they're people just like me and likely the majority of them want the same things in life for themselves and their families.

    I visited Mexico twice in my life. On one such trip to Cancun, my wife and I rented a car to go about seeing the country. I had a flat and so I sought out a tire repair shop. I stopped at a shop that had a tire sign hanging and went in and this woman with most of her teeth missing and wearing pretty shredded clothes greeted me cheerfully and asked what I needed. Through signs and by showing her the tire I was able to tell her what I needed. As she repaired the tire, I looked around at her shop and she didn't have any of the modern air powered equipment that we have in America to dismount tires. No!!! She did it all by hand. The shop was just a dirt floor hovel of a place and when she finished she said the charge was the equivalent of a dollar and a half.

    Now I ask you, who, living in such conditions and knowing that just a couple of hundred miles away was this 'land of milk and honey' that we try to show to the world is what living in America is like, wouldn't want that for themselves or their family? Yes, some are willing to wait to come in legally, but others not so much. People without health insurance should go to a GP to have their common cold and flu addressed, but they won't because they don't have the money. Similarly, people who understand that immigrating the legal way may take years, believe that it may be easier just to do it and worry about the consequences later.

    Other people in other nations are just as different as we are that live here in their individual understanding of things. People are people. Each and everyone who lives upon the face of the earth was made in God's image. Not just Americans, or the rich and wealthy.

    Finally, this issue that they're taking our jobs just seems ludicrous to claim in a day that our unemployment is lower than it's been in some 50 years. I believe that we are an industrious nation and that we will build and grow to accommodate all those who live within our borders. Every immigrant that comes to America, under our capitalist system of enterprise, is just another customer. They'll have to buy food and clothing and keep a roof over their head as much as any one of us. They'll want to work towards getting a car and providing things for their children. They'll want cell phones and laptops and internet and cable service. Just another customer to a capitalist system.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  13. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    I think it's a bad idea. He's doing it simply to go around the appropriations process. Congress disagreed with him and wouldn't give him funding, so he found alternate means. It's not a "constitutional crisis" though since the constitution has the means to handle the situation. Congress has a way out through the courts, through impeachment, and/or through mechanisms available in the National Emergencies Act. I think he probably loses this in court myself.

    The real problem with this is that it may be unconstitutional. Congress holds the power of the purse and is responsible for appropriating money. The Executive is responsible for spending it. The National Emergencies Act seems to have a different sort of emergency in mind - big disasters, foreign attack (Pearl Harbor, 9/11 sort of stuff), etc... and is usually invoked during an actual emergency when funding is needed before the normal appropriations process can be followed.

    But we have a different situation here. The normal appropriations process has been followed, and Congress outright refused to fund the border wall. So it seems that Congress has considered the circumstances and deemed that the funding is not needed. Invoking the NEA at this point is simply usurping Congress' power of the purse.

    Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  14. AvilaSurfer

    AvilaSurfer Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How do I feel? Well, since it's been an emergency for decades that no politician had the guts to tackle, I feel like it's about d*** time.
     
  15. Junker P Hoodwink

    Junker P Hoodwink Member

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    It would be worth it.
     
  16. EpiscipalMe

    EpiscipalMe Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think Trump should pay me $5 billion. May not help with illegal immigration, but it’s only $5 billion, so why not try?
     
  17. EpiscipalMe

    EpiscipalMe Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you pay me $5 billion, I will go to the border and turn away one illegal immigrant.
     
  18. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    I put this in there with other bad ideas about how the executive can usurp Congressional power. Remember that trillion dollar platinum coin idea from about 8 or so years ago?

    Trillion dollar coin - Wikipedia

    Why shouldn't trump just mint a $5.7 billion platinum coin and build the wall? Answer: because it would usurp Congressional power of the purse in the same way that using the NEA as a loophole mechanism usurps Congress' power of the purse.

    (someone really needs to fix that loophole too, btw)
     
  19. tulc

    tulc loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

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    No, it really shouldn't. Not only has no one provided a reason (well...other then President Trumps bruised ego) for it to be built, people have provided many more then adequate reason not to waste money building it. :wave:
    tulc(suspects spending multi-billion dollars to keep one guy out of America would be considered...excessive even by President Trumps base) :sorry:
     
  20. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Barbarian asks:
    You want five billion dollars to stop one illegal immigrant?

    Then try this, it would be five times as effective:

    Find five people who want to illegally come to the United States. Set up a trust so that as long as they stay in their country, they'll get a billion dollars, over 20 years.
     
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