How do you defend the Animal Cruelty in the Bible to skeptics?

[Cis.jd]

There is a question that has been bugging my mind and deals with the allowing of Animal Slaughtering for sacrifices. I've heard the philosophies/explanation of it -- The reason being the wages of sin was death... but i still have difficulty in finding reason for it.

An example is during the story of Abraham Gen 22 v13, in where after he passed the test involving Isaac and in replacement he killed a Ram that had it's horns stuck.

And then in the NT where Jesus allows the demons to enter pigs that eventually ran off the cliff.

How can you just defend this? I guess to some who think "they are just animals" this is a silly question but i think that point of view is seriously disturbing.

What happens if a guy justifies his abuse towards animals using stuff like this as an example?

 

[Greg J.]

There's a lot of pertinent Scripture on this subject, so I'm just going to throw a few things out, because I don't have time to write much.

Death only exists because of man's sin, and it isn't going away in this life.
Animals are tainted by sin (man's fault).
After the flood, God gave animals to Noah for food (Genesis 9:3).
Under the Law, most of the slaughtered animals were food for the priests. Much of the Law was oriented to teach people to respect blood, because Jesus would shed his blood to redeem mankind and the earth (which includes animals, IMO).
Scripturally, killing itself was not and is not "abusive," whether it be about animals or humans.
There is no such thing as justifiable abuse.
Lots of agrarian societies revolved around working to have enough food to eat and survival. Think of animals like a good farmer does. He treats his animals well, but they are food. He may also have pets which he won't kill.
A good-hearted person can kill an animal, which means he had a good reason. A person can also kill with evil in his heart and will be judged for it, regardless of the reason for his actions.

As a long-time volunteer at the local Humane Society, I can tell you that it is darn easy for people to start thinking animals are equal to humans. I believe this is because the rising personal pain in our society has people seeking comfort it whatever ways they can. When enough people find comfort from something, then their opinions shift to one where anything that interferes with that comfort is "bad." (e.g., It is socially "bad" these days to try to have boundaries for sex.) Notice how a lot of people are more comforted by animals than humans. Humans cause pain, but pets accept you as you are.

But animals were made for humans (in general, not necessarily for food). Animals don't have inherent rights, but humans are accountable for their hearts and stewardship toward God's creatures.

A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel. (Proverbs 12:10, 1984 NIV)

 

[Cis.jd]

Thanks, i understand the sacrifice part but i also referenced the story of Jesus driving out Legion to a heard of pigs that jumped off a cliff. I have to admit that i highly disliked what i read there.

I don't see animals as equal to humans but i don't disregard that their lives still have value and deserve respect and protection. Any of us who have owned a dog for a long time knows that animals are in some ways even better than us.

For example, this is a true story. There was an old guy who went off to the forest and accidentally broke his hip bone, making him incapable of moving to save his own life. Fortunately, his goat was with him and this goat stayed with him the whole time and even fed him his milk until authorities found him. So I honestly have a difficult time seeing that animals had to be killed for whatever wrongs man did.. lets say this was still being done in our time (which it is), there are some religions that kill random animals due to religious/cultural beliefs and there is no doubt that is wrong.

i do see you bring up a lot of great points though, so thanks..

 

[Greg J.]

I don't see animals as equal to humans but i don't disregard that their lives still have value and deserve respect and protection. Any of us who have owned a dog for a long time knows that animals are in some ways even better than us.

Yes, God has commanded us to be good stewards of what we have. He does not permit animal cruelty, you know. He doesn't "permit" any sin, but it gets done anyway. I did hear the story about the man and his goat. Pretty amazing—although there's actually a lot of stories of animals behaving uncharacteristically to save people. God is Lord of all animals, by the way.

I don't know why Jesus allowed the demons to go into a herd of pigs instead of into the arid places (Matthew 12:43-44, Luke 11:24-26). One possible reason is because they were going to choose to do that anyway if driven out of the man, however:
1. Demons have a God-given will whereas pigs do not. God respects all being's will (but does not respect demons). So, there is a sense in which demons are prioritized over pigs, however don't take the idea too far. Demons are on death row and have no rights. It is really God's nature in demons (their will) that would be "respected" (like their power: 2 Peter 2:10-11, Jude 1:8-9). Note that we are commanded to fight/resist demons' will.
2. Scripture doesn't say Jesus sent the pigs over the cliff; it appears that was a decision made by the demons.
3. The possessed man was far more valuable than all the pigs combined. Would you give up your life to save a few thousand pigs owned by a wicked village? (They pleaded for Jesus to leave, rather than welcoming the Son of God to their village.)

 

[SeventyOne]

Thanks, i understand the sacrifice part but i also referenced the story of Jesus driving out Legion to a heard of pigs that jumped off a cliff. I have to admit that i highly disliked what i read there.

What exactly is there to explain here? The demons entered the pigs and the pigs ended up dying. If someone is asking you about cruelty pertaining to these pigs, tell them "demons are bad".

 

[Cis.jd]

What exactly is there to explain here? The demons entered the pigs and the pigs ended up dying. If someone is asking you about cruelty pertaining to these pigs, tell them "demons are bad".

How is this not Animal cruelty? You are throwing evil spirits to a heard of pigs and letting the commit suicide because of that. They would not jump off the cliff if the demons did not go in (in which they were given permission to).

Yes, God has commanded us to be good stewards of what we have. He does not permit animal cruelty, you know. He doesn't "permit" any sin, but it gets done anyway. I did hear the story about the man and his goat. Pretty amazing—although there's actually a lot of stories of animals behaving uncharacteristically to save people. God is Lord of all animals, by the way.

The thing is though, the slaughtering of Ram's because someone messed is cruelty and not recognized as a sin. If you watched some of the stuff done to animals in indigenous areas for religious beliefs, you would recognize that as wrong.

I don't know why Jesus allowed the demons to go into a herd of pigs instead of into the arid places (Matthew 12:43-44, Luke 11:24-26). One possible reason is because they were going to choose to do that anyway if driven out of the man, however:

They asked permission first, and they were permitted. When those demons got in those pigs, those pigs ended up dead.

Demons have a God-given will whereas pigs do not. God respects all being's will (but does not respect demons). So, there is a sense in which demons are prioritized over pigs, however don't take the idea too far. Demons are on death row and have no rights. It is really God's nature in demons (their will) that would be "respected" (like their power: 2 Peter 2:10-11, Jude 1:8-9). Note that we are commanded to fight/resist demons' will.

What do you mean by God given will? Pigs also feel and love just like any living being. Research on how the react whenever they know they are about to get slaughtered and research on how they react when they are freed or being loved. Why would the demon be more respected than an animal such as to what i described?

2. Scripture doesn't say Jesus sent the pigs over the cliff; it appears that was a decision made by the demons.

But they wouldn't jump to their doom if the demons were not given a pass to enter them in the first place. I mean, take this way. Lets say you have a pet dog that was very close to you.. and some priest/sage allowed a demon to go in it which would cause it's death. Wouldn't that Priest be detestable to you?

3. The possessed man was far more valuable than all the pigs combined. Would you give up your life to save a few thousand pigs owned by a wicked village? (They pleaded for Jesus to leave, rather than welcoming the Son of God to their village.)

I never denied the value of human life over the pig, the point is why were the pigs being victimized for no reason? Those demons didn't need to enter the pigs in order for a village to be saved, why not send them and bar them to hell instead? I mean, the pigs died anyway after being possessed so they were either released again in the world or sent back to hell.


edit: forgive me by the way if i sound a bit aggressive. I am a heavy Animal rights supporter and do believe in God and his holiness, i just am honestly trying to make sense of this myself..

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

It makes me wonder, does God oppose the cruelty that is part of our modern factory farming/CAFO system? If so, should the faithful be supporting such companies by buying their products?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

It makes me wonder, does God oppose the cruelty that is part of our modern factory farming/CAFO system? If so, should the faithful be supporting such companies by buying their products?

 

[SeventyOne]

How is this not Animal cruelty? You are throwing evil spirits to a heard of pigs and letting the commit suicide because of that. They would not jump off the cliff if the demons did not go in (in which they were given permission to).

There was no sin committed here. All this is, is personal preference regarding the treatment of animals in certain situations based on modern sensitivities. Why is God being held to the standards of personal preferences of a man? Rather than questioning Him, you should be asking forgiveness for wrongly accusing Him. They are His animals, not ours. He can do whatever He wants to do with them, and you or I have no say.

 

[SeventyOne]

It makes me wonder, does God oppose the cruelty that is part of our modern factory farming/CAFO system? If so, should the faithful be supporting such companies by buying their products?

He did say it is permissible to eat all animals. I'm pretty sure He had in mind they be dead prior to consumption.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

He did say it is permissible to eat all animals. I'm pretty sure He had in mind they be dead prior to consumption.

So no method of raising and slaughtering, no matter how cruel, is off limits?

 

[Greg J.]

God cares far more about his animals than any human. There is pain and death in the world because of humans. Humans condemned themselves and animals. Don't blame God; Jesus died to redeem the earth. He offers us a chance to avoid what we earned by sinning. One of our struggles is to understand God, but to suggest he did something wrong is to make yourself superior to God for something.

 

[Cis.jd]

There was no sin committed here. All this is, is personal preference regarding the treatment of animals in certain situations based on modern sensitivities. Why is God being held to the standards of personal preferences of a man? Rather than questioning Him, you should be asking forgiveness for wrongly accusing Him. They are His animals, not ours. He can do whatever He wants to do with them, and you or I have no say.

The thing is, how do you make it right? This is the context of being challenged by a non-christian and anybody would find that as wrong. What defense can you make other than "he is God, so what he does just becomes right... and don't accuse him"?

By that logic, what if you encounter a different religion that is brutalizing dogs or random animals in appeasing their gods, this answer would have the same meaning to you.

 

[Cis.jd]

God cares far more about his animals than any human. There is pain and death in the world because of humans. Humans condemned themselves and animals. Don't blame God; Jesus died to redeem the earth. He offers us a chance to avoid what we earned by sinning. One of our struggles is to understand God, but to suggest he did something wrong is to make yourself superior to God for something.

That is also makes one tough question for me. Why do animals have to pay for the sins of man when they did not do anything? They nor the plants did not "eat the apple" but they still had to be doomed along with man.

Suggesting that there is something wrong with what is being told in the Bible doesn't mean i'm making myself superior, it is just common sense that animal cruelty is wrong. If you are met with a guy who is an anti-christian philosopher, you think "he is God so he has all authority to do what he wants and you can't say he is wrong" is something acceptable?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would ask the person if they have any idea of the utter brutality and cruelty that is a simple fact of life in the natural animal world. When they can explain that I will answer their question.

 

[JohnRabbit]

God cares far more about his animals than any human.

this is false!

we have to be careful to say things that are consistent with the written record!


Psalms 8:3-8(NKJV)
3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen— Even the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the air, And the fish of the sea That pass through the paths of the seas.

if it were as you say, then the animals would have the dominion over man, right?

 

[JohnRabbit]

That is also makes one tough question for me. Why do animals have to pay for the sins of man when they did not do anything?

the animal sacrifices pointed to the sacrifice of the Christ!

so, when animals were sacrificed, God wanted man to have the sentiment you've expressed.

it was hard for the COI to see an innocent animal put to death (or anyone for that matter), so much so, that when the Christ was put to death, how much more would we feel knowing that He was innocent and yet died for us - romans 5:8.

Leviticus 17:11(NKJV)
11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

 

[TheNorwegian]

The sacrifices in the Temple were mostly eaten by those who brought them or given as a wage to the priest (Lev chapter 7 Deut 15:19-23). It was not a random slaughtering of animals for the sake of slaughter. For many this was the only time they would eat meat.

This is not very different from eating meat today: The animals are slaughtered and then we eat them. It is of course possible to argue that slaughtering animals is always bad (at least for the animals), and that we ought to be Vegetarian or Vegan, but that is a different discussion

 

[RDKirk]

It makes me wonder, does God oppose the cruelty that is part of our modern factory farming/CAFO system? If so, should the faithful be supporting such companies by buying their products?

Why are you wondering? God didn't decree "our modern factory farming/CAFO system." Have you prayed and asked Him?

 

[SeventyOne]

So no method of raising and slaughtering, no matter how cruel, is off limits?

I didn't say that, but if you can find biblical guidelines for such things, then you have a starting point. Otherwise were just back to imposing personal preference once again.