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Featured How do we hear God's voice?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Nov 22, 2018.

  1. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    not at all Paul is simply saying that love faith hope are more important and enduring than the prophecies and tongues and knowledge in part we have now. Love will never fail in all eternity.

    But if a man has a gift of prophecy and sees in part but dies not have love what good is it for him
     
  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul is saying faith (not needed in heaven) continues after tongues cease.
     
  3. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    At the time of Paul's writing the gifts of tongues and prophecy were still active in the church. So of course he uses the future tense with regard to them ceasing.

    No, the verse does not say 'when we see Jesus face to face'. Jesus is never mentioned in this passage. Seeing 'face to face' is the contrasting analogy to seeing dimly in a mirror. It is saying our 'seeing' (whatever that is referring to) will be drastically improved.

    Indeed teleios does mean complete. “Completeness” is the antithesis of “in part”, so it is obvious these two quantitative expressions are related. Whatever ‘in part’ is referring to, almost certainly applies to ‘completeness’. That which is ‘in part’ is the practice of the gifts of prophecy and words of knowledge (v9), both of which are revelations from God. It follows therefore that ‘completeness’ would also involve revelation. “In part” refers to the fact that the revelation communicated by these gifts was partial or piecemeal. The corresponding “completeness”, as the counterpart to “in part” must then refer to a full or complete revelation from God. This can only be seen as the completed revelation God as preserved in the New Testament. At the time of Paul's writing the early church needed prophecy and words of knowledge to guide them in the faith in the absence of a New Testament. However when a church had a completed canon, it would no longer need the gift of prophecy to guide them. Thus, the completed canon would replace the partial prophecies and words of knowledge.

    The analogy of a child maturing into a man in v11 indicates that the process would not be an instantaneous one (as would happen at the 2nd coming) but rather something that occurs over a period of time - such as the completed canon being distributed among the churches. This ties in perfectly with church history where the early church fathers (100-200AD) said tongues were still active, the middle fathers (200-300 AD) saying they are rare, and the late fathers (300-400AD) saying the gift had ceased.

    This passage does not say that all those gifts will continue, it says that the equipping and building will continue. Apostles and prophets were active in the first century and they equipped the 1st century church. Their teachings were recorded in scripture and so they still continue to equip the church today.

    "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
    The church was "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone," (Eph 2:20)

     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  4. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    'Speaks' is not a very good metaphor for those situations. It implies God giving a specific message. 'Witnesses' is a better word. God doesn't speak through creation, he witnesses through creation.

    By still 'small voice in the heart' you mean God giving us a message via our thoughts and feelings, right? You have a strong thought or feeling, you assume it to be God, and then you verbalize it into "God told me .....". Where in scripture does it say he gives messages to us in this manner?

    That is not an example of God giving a message via a person's thoughts or feelings.
     
  5. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    It says that faith hope and love would remain after the 3 gifts had ceased. The greatest is love because love never ceases (v8), but faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming when they become reality:

    Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

    2 Cor 5:6-7 "while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord - for we walk by faith, not by sight"

    Rom 8:24 "but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?".

    So if faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming and outlast the 3 gifts then the 3 gifts must cease before the 2nd coming.
     
  6. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    but scripture says,

    "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,"(Psalm 19:1-4 KJV)

    I never said a person verbalizes it and says "God told me" you tred to say that to set up a false straw man.

    But here is some scripture for you about the still small voice

    "12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. 13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? 14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:"(1 Kings 19:12-15 KJV)

    Study to shew thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.

    who said anything about thoughts or feeling. God's spirit bears witness with out spirit and God works in us to will and to do. Prophecy is to speak under unction. To tell forth or show forth.
     
  7. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I believe you interpret that wrongly in your cut and paste way

    we do read however

    "Charity never faileth:..."
     
  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    "19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."(Matthew 10:19,20 KJV)
     
  9. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    Read the passage you quoted again. It doesn't say God speaks, it says 'the heavens speak'. It that passage there is no confusion of metaphors because we all know that the heavens cannot literally speak.

    Yes you did. That's how you described your own experience earlier in this thread (post #216).

    You said:

    "Then as I walked by I heard the Lord speak clear to me and He said to go into that place and sit down and wait"

    "The Lord told me to sit in the middle away from the side pews. "

    I heard the Lord say to me very clearly, “Go and ask that man if he thinks homosexuality is a sin”​

    The "still small voice" that Elijah heard was not a feeling. He physically heard it. And it was not showing him how God would communicate with him. God was already having a full verbal conversation with Elijah!

    And in any it case narratives of events such as this are descriptive, not prescriptive. It is bad hermeneutics to take historical events and examples in scripture and make them the pattern for today.

    That's what you said earlier (post #218)

    " in your mind and heart you hear to pray for someone "

    "This just comes to your mind "​

    You seem to be contradicting yourself a lot.
     
  10. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    That's not an example of God speaking to a man via their thoughts/feelings/things coming to mind (whatever you want to call it).
     
  11. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    It is as if Paul is saying

    "
    1 Corinthians 13:12
    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know [God and His Son Jesus Christ] in part; but then shall I know [God and His Son Jesus Christ] even as also I am known [of God and His Son Jesus Christ].


    Jesus said

    "3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."(John 17:3 KJV)

    Here's some more about the face to face aspect

    "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."(Revelation 22:3,4 KJV)

    Paul says similar words

    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    He also says similar here

    "11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."(Philippians 3:11-12 KJV)

    These are similar in the part "but then face to face...but then shall I know even as also I am known" and "I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. It is Christ Jesus that apprehends him and who knows him . "Apprehend"can imply to be known or perceived, or seized possessed in Greek. To "know" even as he is known also is similar. The word "know" here means, perceived, or recognized. So when he sees Jesus face to face he will perceive ad he is perceived by Christ Jesus, or "apprehend" (perceive) as he is apprehended (Perceived) by Christ Jesus.


    We also read more about the face of Jesus Christ that we see

    2 Corinthians 4:6
    "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."


    and more about "face to face"


    Genesis 32:30
    And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."


    "11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle."(Exodus 33:11 KJV)


    "The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,"(Deuteronomy 5:4 KJV)


    "With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?(Numbers 12:8 KJV) Here we see that when God speaks mouth to mouth or face to face, there are no dark speeches. It is as if the part is done away and no more misunderstanding, to know as we are known.


    "14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night. (Numbers 14:14 KJV)

    "35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face."(Ezekiel 20:35 KJV)


    "35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him."(Exodus 34:35 KJV)


    compare this with 2 Cor. This may imply a future face aspect of things that are no more, fail, or cease.


    2 Corinthians 3:13
    And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:"


    2 Corinthians 3:7
    But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  12. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Obviously God speaks through them.

    Believers have the mind of Christ and a new heart. I am not speaking of the carnal mind of man or the deceitful heart. The natural man knows not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he know them, They are spiritually discerned.

    All true believers are to listen with spiritual ears and see with spiritual eyes. Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    "22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
    (Revelation 3:22 KJV)
     
  13. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Yes it is

    "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you"
     
  14. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Yes. Clearly at the end of time, with all of us directly knowing Jesus, directly connected to the mind of the Father, unfettered by our present corrupted flesh, the gifts of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge would be superfluous. But love will always be necessary.

    If we were to presume that scripture replaces prophesy and knowledge, then we would also have to presume that those Corinthians' prophesies and words of knowledge were scripture. So why did Paul write letters that became scripture? If scripture = prophesy, then what he wrote would have been what they were already prophesying.

    Rather, of all the OT prophets and of all these prophets in the early church, very few of the OT prophesies and none of the NT prophesies have entered scripture.

    Why? Because they weren't for us.

    So there is no reason from scripture to think that scripture replaces prophesy. Scripture always accompanied and validated prophesy.
     
  15. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    Do you think, when the bible says 'the Holy spirit will speak in you' that he is going to recite to you in an audible voice for you to repeat?? no this is from the believers inner self.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Yes i agree, the many many who had the gift of prophecy also had scripture and there is no contradiction between the two.

    Only certain words from certain men became scripture. but there were many other apostles and prophets and Paul said they should all seek prophecy.
     
  17. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    No, 'knowing in part' (v9, v12) in this passage is referring the spiritual gift of words of knowledge (1 Cor 12:8). This is a passage about 3 gifts ceasing. How can it be knowledge of God and Christ when it says it will be done away (v8)!


    No, it's completely different. Rev 22 says, "HIS face". 1 Cor 13 simply says 'face to face'. There is no indication whatsoever that it is our face seeing Christ's face in 1 Cor 13.

    Sorry but just quoting multitudes of verses that contain the word 'face' or vaguely similar references is simply grasping at straws. There are also dozens of verses where the word 'face' where it is NOT referring to God's face.

    It is quite clear 'face to face' in v12 is not referring to seeing Christ as continuationists suppose. There is no mention of Christ in this passage. 'Face to face' is referring to the analogy of a mirror. At the time of Paul's writing, when church had to rely on piecemeal prophecies for guidance in the faith in the absence of the NT, it was like seeing dimly in a poor mirror (mirrors were poor quality in those days). But when 'completeness' came, it would be like looking at someone 'face to face'. Prophecies would cease and we would have God's revelation to man presented in a far superior way.

    Now you might be onto something here.

    There is indeed a parallel here between 1 Cor 13 and Numbers 12. God spoke to the OT prophets in dark speeches [ainigma in the LXX] but He spoke to Moses in a much clearer manner ("mouth to mouth"). Similarly God spoke to man through the NT prophets dimly [ainigma] but after completeness came spoke to man in a much clearer manner ("face to face").
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  18. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    No, its not the same. Read the passage in context. The speaking is being done by believers in a very specific situation when they are being persecuted and are arrested for being Christians. When they are brought before the courts God will give them the words to say. God will control their speech. It is nothing to do with God speaking to believers via their feelings in everyday situations. You are comparing apples with oranges.

    And if God has to give believers a specific enabling in that situation, it is clear they did not have that enabling beforehand!
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  19. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    Prophecy was just as infallible and authoritative as Scripture. And that is how God communicated to people in the early church in the absence of a completed NT. The completed canon replaced prophecy because it is far superior. If anyone wants to know what God has to say on a matter, he doesn't have to wait around for a prophet to say something, he can just instantly look it up.
     
  20. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    You mean if you have a question like this:

    “Should I go to war against Ramoth-gilead, or should I hold back?”

    Where would Ahab and Jehosophat have found that answer in scripture?

    My wife and I spent a fruitless decade in one congregation. So I'll ask the question, "Which church should I go to?"

    Where is that answer found for me in scripture? And if I thought I found it, does that mean every other church is bad?
     
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