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Featured how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Rom 5:19
    (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    1Ti 2:4-6
    (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
    According to you "many" in Rom 5:19 is a Hebraism and Paul really means "all." Here are a few more verses where Paul says "many". Let's see how assuming "many" really means all here.
    Rom 6:3
    (3) Know ye not, that so many [all] of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    1Co 10:5
    (5) But with many [all] of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
    1Co 11:30
    (30) For this cause many [all] are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    2Co 1:11
    (11) Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many [all] persons thanks may be given by many [all] on our behalf.
    2Co 6:10
    (10) As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many [all] rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
    2Co 11:18
    (18) Seeing that many [all] glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
    Php 3:15
    (15) Let us therefore, as many [all] as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
    Php 3:18
    (18) (For many [all] walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
    Some verses where Christ used "many" let's see how Hebraism works here.
    Mar 10:45
    (45) For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.[all]
    Mat 7:13
    (13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many [all] there be which go in thereat:
    Mat 7:22
    (22) Many [all] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 8:11
    (11) And I say unto you, That many [all] shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat 24:5
    (5) For many [all] shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Mat 24:10
    (10) And then shall many [all] be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    Mar 13:6
    (6) For many [all] shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
     
  2. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:22-24

    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
    If God does not call you, you cannot come.

    Greek Word in "en" also means (in with and by) and these words can be interchanged so you “in Christ argument holds no water” the translation could also say “by Christ” or "with Christ" all will be made alive”.

    Yes much of First Corinthians 15 is speaking of the why we are believers but they are to keys you are either ignoring or dismissing. First being the (in with, by) we just covered. Second being the last being vs. 23 which declares how the all in Christ will be made alive each and there own order file or rank if you look at the Greek.

    This verse is a perfect example of where context should be used. There is a time element and all the words line up and mean the very same thing in context, it is a perfect example for context and we should heed it deep and awesome message and not insert bias.

    In the first part of the verse it reads “22 For as in Adam all (pas) die”. In (in with and by), (in Adam), (with Adam), (by Adam)… Amen, we all agree all (pas) die, some see this as Physical death but it is death period. We are dead creatures every one of us dead, spiritually, dead physically some day if Jesus does not return, we are dead dead in trespasses and sin, death reigns from Adam to Christ.

    Then in context the very next phase “so in Christ shall all (pas) be made alive” (in with and by), (in Christ), (with Christ), (by Christ)… shall all be made alive.

    Then God’s Word not my opinion shows us now… But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Notice how it says firstfruits (plural), The firstfruitsare the very same who will rule and reign with Christ, Some say these people were the early Church, but this is not what a firstfruit is, it is not the beginning of a planting season do we get a firstfruit harvest, it is at the beginning of a harvest, and right after the firstfruit is harvested the whole harvest becomes mature and ready for picking.

    to all people.
     
  3. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I am not saying that God does not know everything or even before hand what will happen.But that s a very different thing than saying as you said that he "plans" everything and to even imply that God made Adam and eve sin and that he wanted them to sin.

    God can force all things and make a plan for that eventuality. But Adam and Eve did not sin by God making them sin.

    I suggest that you shut off your preconceived bias and learn to read the bible for what it says, so that you will not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

    You are trying to distract form the weakness of your doctrine and sidetrack.

    and the Lamb slain from [a point in time] the foundation of the world was done after Adam and Eve sinned. No lamb was slain before. So the text "from the foundation" is what I said.The fact that God knows before hand "foreordained", does not help your case.
     
  4. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    ClementofA said,

    "After the aions end He will still be life, just as He was during the aions. He is both the life eonian and more than life eonian. He is life during the eons and life after the eons. So to say Christ is eonian life does not prove aionion means eternal.
    You entirely miss what I was saying and create a false argument in attempt to avoid the issue. "


    Jesus Christ HIMSELF is eternal life. He is the the LIFE and if any believer is in Christ they have Jesus Christ (Eternal Life) in them. It is not some vague time frame or age. Eternal life (Jesus Christ) is the actual person of the Son of God, Jesus Christ in them.

    So if a person is saved, they have Jesus Christ (Eternal Life) in them and to die in this belief is everlasting life (Jesus Christ) To live is Christ to die is gain. This is a real presence in them. Eternal life is a presence in this instance.

    If they do not have Jesus Christ in them, they abide in death and darkness and are lost and even if a believer or non believer hates his brother he no longer has "eternal life" abiding (remaining, continuing) in him (1 John 3:15 KJV). If they die in this state of not having Jesus Christ (Eternal Life) in them, they will be eternally damned and headed for the lake of fire forever and ever. There is no way (as far as I see in scripture) to have Jesus Christ (Eternal Life) come in them again after death.

    Jesus said

    John 5:24
    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is [presnt tense] passed from death unto life....26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;...29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection oflife; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

    Death and damnation is the opposite of this life in Jesus Christ, only "in him" is life. Also notice the future tense here as well,

    John 3:36
    "He that believeth on the Son hath [present tense] everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not [in the present time and future] see life; but the wrath of God abideth[remains] on him"

    This shall not see life shows clearly the endless damnation in judgement and no life in Christ for such people. To say they shall not see life, is the opposite of the universalist who say , "yes all shall see life". The reason they might miss this is because eternal life is Jesus Christ himself in these context. If a man dies outside of Christ and abides not in him he is cast forth as a branch and withered and cast into the fire John 15.
     
  5. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    I Never SAID God made Adam and Eve SIN. You cannot even read the Bible with out getting your preconceived bias in the way. I see you did not quote the other verse I posted. Must be selective bias with selective verse.
     
  6. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Acts 17:30
    And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

    Mark 7:14
    And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:"

    Mark 8:34
    And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

    "12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."*Romans 10:12-18 KJV)

    I find this ridiculous. I have seen this with the cults often. When their argument is clearly rebuked by scripture they rush frantically to the "Greek: ti try and find some remote meaning that they can twist to make their doctrine sound true.

    To be in Christ and have Christ in you is a reality and real presence of jesus in all believers. This word of Christ dwells in our hearts as Paul said in Colossians 3;16. And Jesus speaks of this word or seed in the hearts of men. This word is the engrafted word that is able to save the soul. This is in mens hearts, not just among them or with them. If Jesus Christ is in a person he is "in" them and with them in their hearts. The word "in" simply means "In' in the instances I showed

    Jesus says things like this

    "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself [can a branch have life flowing through it if it is not IN the vine?, is the branch simple "by" or "with" the vine? No it is in and connected to the vine] , except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch [this would be outside of the vine maybe even apparently near or by or with the vine. But if he is not "in" the vine he is lost], and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.(John 15:2-7 KJV)

    "16 Let the
    word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."(Colossians 3;15 KJV)

    "15...which is the head, even
    Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."(Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

    Matthew 13:19
    "When any one heareth
    the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side."

    Mark 4:15
    "And these are they by the way side, where the
    word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts."


    No, the expression "in Adam, relates to our real human fallen flesh and nature. For example when a man has seed and that seed goes in a woman and life comes. Then that mans seed is continued and the child is in the fathers seed and so on for all the human family. So in Christ His seed is sown in the hearts and those who believe the seed takes root dies and rises and believers are planted together in the likeness of his death and resurrection. They are actually in Christ and children of God. The seed remains in them through faith. Pater says we are born again not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible by the word of God.

    In Adam connects all to the old man, in Christ connects to the new man. We don't say we are "with"am, or "by" Adam, but "in" Adam all die.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  7. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    show scripture for this "God lowered Adam from a pure spirit made in God's image and likeness to a dust man"
     
  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    You said God plans ALL things and you said

    "God is all knowing, sees all, creates all and there is absolute nothing out of His divine sovereign control"

    Your understanding of "plans all" and "creates all", and "nothing is out of His divine sovereign control" is the issue

    what do you mean by such words? Is sin and evil God controlling men to do such things? Does God plan for the murderer to kill? the man to deny God"?, or the liar to lie?

    Does God create all mens situations to do evil and hate God and reject him? No absolutely not

    And show me in scripture the word

    "sovereign"
     
  9. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What/Who is Satan?

    Revelation 12:7-9(KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Note: it was not just Satan, it was HIS angels along with him. Could angels be led by a "non-angel" and didn't this take place in heaven? I didn't realize humans (made out of fleshly, physical bodies) could even exist in heaven which is a spiritual realm. I thought when one gets to heaven it required them to get a new (spiritual) body?

    1 John 3:8(KJV) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    beginning - G746 ἀρχή archē ar-khay'
    From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

    We see that there are different meanings for the word "beginning", i.e., various applications of order, first estate, magistrate, principality is more likely what it means.

    Liar and murderer are indicative of Satan's character, not his "beginning" as some may choose to portray it. The word “beginning" here I propose means that he was the first to do it, that is to sin (and I believe it was long before Adam sinned). A lot of us (when referring to Adam in the garden), refer to it as "the original sin" but I think it would be more appropriate to say "man's original sin". It was not the first sin to take place in all of creation, we can thank Satan for that, and it was his “sin” which produced the knowledge of it

    Revelation 12:7 states that Satan was an angel (that's unless one wants to try and spin it somehow, although I don’t see how, it’s quite clear in this verse). But let’s look further, more specifically, what kind of angel was/is he? To find this out, we need to look next at Jude (our 2nd witness) and what Jude has to say about Satan, who’s also known as the devil, aka the dragon and the serpent (the many sinister names that he has). Jude tells us that Satan was involved in a dispute with Michael over Moses body (ever wonder why Moses body has never been found?). Now you must see this spiritually. Jude also tells us that Michael, is what is known as an "archangel". According to Strong's, an archangel is a "chief" angel and is of a higher rank than the other angels. The word “archangel” appears only twice in the Bible, here in Jude verse 9 and in 1 Thessalonian 4:16, which occurs we are told when the Lord returns, of whose voice (the archangel whose name we are not given) we hear when that takes place.

    No doubt Satan’s an angel, a very powerful one (this should be clear if you believe scripture, even if you don't believe the Old Testament Prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel who perhaps give us the most descriptive picture of Satan who was formerly Lucifer) that we have anywhere. We have two more New Testament witnesses here in John and Jude who give us the information we need to come up with a logical and intelligent conclusion on who this evil being really is. God gives us enough scriptures for us along with the Holy Spirit to enable us to put 2 and 2 together to figure out who and what this evil creature is, which Satan definitely does not want us to figure out.

    Jude 1:9 (KJV) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
    contending - G1252 διακρίνω diakrinō dee-ak-ree'-no
    From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate:—contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
    disputed - G1256 διαλέγομαι dialegomai dee-al-eg'-om-ahee
    Middle voice from G1223 and G3004; to say thoroughly, that is, discuss (in argument or exhortation):—dispute, preach (unto), reason (with), speak.
    railing - G988 βλασφημία blasphēmia blas-fay-me'-ah
    From G989; vilification (especially against God):—blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.
    accusation - G2920 κρίσις krisis kree'-sis
    (Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
    rebuke - G2008 ἐπιτιμάω epitimaō ep-ee-tee-mah'-o
    From G1909 and G5091; to tax upon, that is, censure or admonish; by implication forbid:—(straitly) charge, rebuke.
    It says in the above verse that Michael when he disputed with the devil regarding Moses bones, he did not bring a "railing accusation" against him and called on the Lord instead to bring rebuke. Now why? Michael was a chief angel, was he not? Shouldn't he have had the authority to rebuke Satan as a chief angel, but for some reason he didn't? Why could that be? The only thing to conclude here is that Satan must have been either of the same rank as Michael or perhaps even higher (although I doubt he was higher).

    Jude tells us why Michael did not bring rebuke to him in the above verse to the one whom we know is the epitome of all evil (he is evil) and instead called on the Lord to do it:

    It was because of Satan's position (rank) in heaven (apparently equal to Michael's) and thus almost certainly he too was an archangel. As a result under God’s governmental order Michael was not permitted to rail or rebuke another archangel (or someone of the same rank) and thus Michael turned it over to God who obviously outranks Satan in His governmental authority in heaven ("thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”) which authority will someday be here on earth. Right now, as it stands, Satan is the prince (small god) of this world but fortunately for us and all mankind it won't be for much longer and God outranks him by a very wide margin.

    What’s also quite interesting is what we are also told regarding this incident between Satan and Michael:
    Jude 8 explains why God, in his sovereignty, set this thing up this way (that all His creation is required to respect authority):

    Jude 1:8(KJV) Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
    despise - G114 ἀθετέω atheteō ath-et-eh'-o
    From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5087; to set aside, that is, (by implication) to disesteem, neutralize or violate:—cast off, despise, disannul, frustrate, bring to nought, reject.
    dominion – G2963 κυριότης kuriotēs koo-ree-ot'-ace
    From G2962; mastery, that is, (concretely and collectively) rulers:—dominion, government.
    dignities - G1391 δόξα doxa dox'-ah
    From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively):—dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.
    In other words, we are not to despise those who are in positions of authority, , ore speak evil of those who should be glorified. Those who speak evil of God, who should be glorified, are doing what Satan did, and thus are committing sin.

    So now that this has been established, that Satan's origin was in heaven, we can go on to say that Sin had to have begun in heaven no doubt and Satan was the one who instigated it. No one really knows precisely the date when sin originated (just like no one knows precisely when God created the earth or the Universe or when Jesus will return). We also do not know exactly what he did and why, but we do know that he led a rebellion against God, took a third of the angels in heaven with him although we can surmise (see Isaiah 14). All we now know for sure is that it happened, and that Satan was the one behind initial sin and the originator of it (and not Adam as some have speculated). Note that in verse 9 of Jude, the word “railing” is the Greek word “blasphemia”, the same word used for blasphemy. God considers it “blasphemy” to rail (or accuse) someone who is in a position of “God ordained” authority. Caution: The one “unpardonable sin” according to Jesus is the “blaspheming of the Holy Spirit” and those who attempt to claim that God is “evil” or a “Monster” may be in danger of doing that very thing. So, I’d be very careful if I were some of you. You could be in danger of facing the judgment.


    Moving on, now that we've established certain facts regarding our greatest and most powerful enemy, Satan, let's take a closer look in relation to man. God puts man in this garden, but He also puts that tree of the knowledge of good and evil in there with him as well. The next question should be, where did that knowledge of evil come from originally? For something to be knowledge it would have to have been known wouldn’t it? And in order for it to have been known, it would had to have occurred (at some point in time) wouldn’t it (that is, prior to it becoming knowledge). Wouldn’t that make sense? Logically, the idea of knowing evil, and it becoming a known fact of the universe, evil must have already taken somewhere or someplace, and a recorded record must exist (somewhere in heaven. Now we do not have access to this record, but what we do know is that there is such a thing (which is what the tree reveals). Perhaps someday we will know for sure. So based on this, and the circumstances we do know about it, where would it have possibly taken place keeping mind that it must have happened before Adam was created? Using common Christian (Holy Spirit) sense, it had to have been in heaven. God didn't put the tree in the garden for man to know about it so that man could be the first one to perform it (the "evil sin act") which would have to have been the first time in the history of creation. No, it must have already existed prior to man’s (Adam’s) creation. Since we inherited it (our sin nature as a result of Adam’s fall), we too have inherited that “knowledge” (that is the ability to distinguish the difference between “good and evil” (which results in our inherent ability to perform it. But in addition, we have also inherited many of God's attributes, one being the ability to reason, as well as the ability to understand and comprehend, and with the knowledge of the Word (where He gives us the capability to find out many of His “secret things”) and of course the help of the Holy Spirit we can logically determine that evil must have already existed prior to man's creation, otherwise there could not have been any knowledge of evil since evil wouldn’t have existed prior to it actually happening (hence the tree in the garden which would contain that knowledge).

    Although we don't know exactly all the particulars, we do know somethings about it, we know that Satan did something terrible (we do know from Revelations 12 that he led 1/3 of the angels in rebellion against God, I imagine he did much more). I think that poster Lucious hits on a number of good points in this regard, involving Satan and God and the apparent ongoing battle between the two of them. Later comes man, God's new creation (obviously angels were created intelligence's who existed prior to man and different creations who exist in spirit form, not natural like man). Certainly, some can (and probably will) say that God put the tree in there to tempt Adam (which has been implied in this thread), but I (and most believers) believe otherwise. Nowhere in scripture does it say that, that God put the tree in the garden to tempt Adam (as a matter of fact, James tells us the exact opposite in that that God tempts no man).

    James 1:13 (KJV) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
    19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
    20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

    In getting back to one of the original premises, God causing (or predetermining) that Adam would sin, if we believe the scriptures (and not any of the corrupted versions of the Bible) James tells us that’s impossible, and that we should not let any “man” tell us otherwise:
    Looking further into Jude, he tells us in verse 10:

    Jude 1:10 (KJV) But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
    brute - G249
    ἄλογος alogos al'-og-os
    From
    G1 (as a negative particle) and G3056; irrational:—brute, unreasonable.
    Isaiah shares with us, that we are to reason with ourselves and that we can even reason with God.

    Isaiah 1:18-20(KJV) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    Isn’t it a bit hypocritical to state that “show me the scripture that says that man has freewill?” Yet, I say “show me where the Bible says “It was God not Adam who caused man to fall” which implies that it was God who caused man to sin and which is totally false. Sounds a bit “brutish” to me.

    The Word of God is our foundation, and the Holy Spirit is our teacher. And we are not ignorant of Satan's devices which he uses to try and throw us off course.

    Psalms 11:3(KJV) If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
    foundations - H8356 שָׁתָה shâthâh shaw-thaw'
    From H7896; a basis, that is, (figuratively) political or moral support:—foundation, purpose.
    destroyed - H2040 הָרַס hâras haw-ras'
    A primitive root; to pull down or in pieces, break, destroy:—beat down, break (down, through), destroy, overthrow, pluck down, pull down, ruin, throw down, X utterly.
    righteous - H6662 צַדִּיק tsaddı̂yq tsad-deek'
    From H6663; just:—just, lawful, righteous (man).

    Satan wants to destroy our foundation (God's Word), but he cannot do it, for God preserves His word for us, His TRUE word He says forever.
    Psalms 12:6-7(KJV) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    Deuteronomy 4:1-2(KJV) Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
    2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    Proverbs 30:5-6(KJV) Every word of God is pure
    : he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
    6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

    Revelation 22:19-20(KJV) 9And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Seems to me that a number of these corrupted Bibles both add and take away quite a bit.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Some more literal versions read:

    The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

    The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

    Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

    John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

    This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

    It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

    It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

    1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    In chapter 4 he writes:

    39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
    they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

    42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

    John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

    The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

    Ilaria Ramelli, <i>The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena</i> | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

    Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


    Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found.

    16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
    16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
    16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

    Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

    John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me.

    Context determines the meaning of a word. The same word can have more than one, or even many, meanings in different contexts.

    So, to illustrate, if aionion means "eternal" in one context, it can mean a finite age or ages, epoch, era, millennium, lifetime, 3 days, long time, lasting, etc, in other passages.

    In order to refute universalism you need to prove the word aionion means "eternal" when speaking of punishment. Arguing that it means "eternal" in regards to life proves nothing.

    Universalists mostly agree that aionion sometimes means "eternal" & at others times it doesn't. Call that position A. And the following position B:

    Some universalists, however, argue that in Scripture aionion never means eternal & that it always refers to an age, ages or a period of time that is finite. For more on that view see, for example, points 8 & 9 at posts 130 & 131 at:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)


    Which leads us to the passage you refer to, 1 Jn.1:2, & the interpretation of the aforementioned "position B". It says Christ is life aionion, as 1 Jn.1:2 is to be understood. That doesn't mean that is everything Christ is. Christ is much more than that. After the aions end He will still be life, just as He was during the aions. He is both the life eonian and more than life eonian. He is life during the eons and life after the eons. So to say Christ is eonian life does not prove aionion means eternal. In fact, since the aions end, according to Scripture (Heb.9:26; 1 Cor.10:11), the eonian times (Titus 1:2, etc) must also end, as must eonian punishment (Mt.25:46). But since Christ & the saints will have immortality, incorruption, etc, their life will be endless.

    BTW it's impossible for "life eonian" to be endless in the past because the eonian times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25; 2 Tim.1:9). Are you going to argue that Christ had a beginning, too?

    Christ Himself connected eonian life with the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons (ages) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev. 22:5). So eonian life there can be understood to be restricted to a finite eon.

    "In the Gospels there are instances where the substantive aion and the adjective aionios are juxtaposed or associated in a single image or utterance (most directly in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30). This obvious parallel in the Greek is invisible in almost every English tanslation" (p.540, The New Testament: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

    Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

    Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is "after" and "beyond" aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:

    "...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond
    eternal life." (Comm. in Io 13.3)


    N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders "life aionios" as "the life of God's coming age" (1 Jn.1:2, NTE). Compare:

    Weymouth New Testament
    the Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and we declare unto you the Life of the Ages which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

    Young's Literal Translation
    and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us --

    And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us. (CLV)

    And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age-abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us; (Ro)

    (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and we bear testimony, and we declare to you the life the age-lasting, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us (Diaglott Greek-English interlinear)

    ...the AIONIAN LIFE...(Diaglott margin)

    and announce to you the life of the Age...(The NT: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

    Indeed the Chayyei [Olam] was manifested, and we have seen it and we give solemn eidus (witness of testimony) and we proclaim to you the Chayyei Olam which was alongside with HaAv [Yochanan 1:1-4,14] and made hisgalus (appearance of, exposure of in revelation) to us [Shlichim]. (OJB)

    Speaking of OLAM, we now turn to Dan.12:2-3, which also supports the above position:

    The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
    and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
    of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
    (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

    The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

    Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

    καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

    Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

    eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

    εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

    So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

    3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
    and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

    2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
    3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

    2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
    3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
    * for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

    Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

    Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    my threads:

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  11. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    That’s why those are bad translations

    Stick with the KJV

    And what does “age-abiding” mean anyway such a confusing translation doesn’t even make sense no wonder it is not used much
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's like age-lasting, age-remaining. As for KJV, this is either the KJV or one of its HellFire Damnationist Club clones:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is why UR is a false heretical belief. No matter how many times this mortal error is exposed you keep posting it over and over and over. Origen did NOT say "life after aionios life."
    .....Here is the Origen quote in context.

    (18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, [Song 2:8] so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. [John 4:14]
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
    (20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
    What does Origen say about eternal life? After the fountain leaps into eternal life PERHAPS it will leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. Did Origen believe aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life?" Later in the same writing Origen said this about "eternal life."
    (6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John
    Origen said eternal life “never perishes,””remains.””is not taken away,””[is not] consumed,””[does not] perish.”

     
  14. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    The three Hebrew boys were thrown into a fiery furnace and a fourth showed up. Not a hair on their head was scorched...

    Daniel 3 begins with Nebuchadnezzar (earthly king/Babylon) building an image of gold/idol, requiring all the nations to bow down to worship it when they heard the music played. The three Hebrew boys refused, telling the king "our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king." The three boys were bound up and thrown in the fiery furnace.

    I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


    The kingdom of heaven is within and not seen by observation (with the five senses) as an over here or over there, far off place/destination. Perception is everything for it is not by the hearing of the ear, but seeing of the eye (single of eye) as Jesus spoke "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light." And our body is the temple/dwelling place of God...And as Paul said, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." ...that renewing of the mind...the revealing takes place within our inner-most being...being restored/reconciled/renewed which is to have existed before.

    The deep slumber and eyesight change that happened in the garden and what Adam was kicked out of, no longer able to 'see' is what is being restored...and all in relation to our soul. As long as we see the spirit of Christ as something separate, outside of our being, we are not whole/One in spirit.

    Then Jesus declared, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind. Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, “Are we blind too? If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

    Hell is as much an internal truth as heaven...for the flesh profiteth nothing...Paul speaks to the battle (duality of carnal vs spirit) within in Romans 7 and in Christ victory is promised. John 17 Jesus speaks of this "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us... the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"

    God loves impartially...and there is nothing that exists that did not come from HIM to fulfill His plan He purposed in Himself from the beginning...
     
  15. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable (the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


    I.Damn…. Strong's NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): destroying, utter destruction

    A. of vessels

    II.a perishing, ruin, destruction
    A the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

    KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

    Who is this verse addressing???

    This is your fundamental belief that Jesus is going to damn billions. That’s heresy according to God’s Word which you claim to believe in. They bring damnations , destruction, perish etc.


    Looks like Rome missed this verse when they changed the meaning of God’s Word and inserted words like hell and eternal. I love the word easter. Talk about pagan.

    Is it the Christian Universalist who believes God’s Word is Spirit and life and that ultimately all who will be saved. NO it is the heretic who condemns, damn billions and billions of God’s people who he never called and for that reason have NO… freewill to save themselves.


    Now it’s your turn to show me Christian Universalism is heresy. Please God’s Word opinions are not excepted.
     
  16. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  17. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Look it up.... its out there. Check the Greek the word is Passover it is mistranslated from. I do hope you know what Passover is? BIG KJV error.
     
  18. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Easter” Is Not A Mistranslation

    Nope. Big error on your part. Should be the Pagan holiday, just like King James has it. Article explains it quite well. It was not Passover.. Sometimes we must use some common sense (not just the letter). Note the Strong's definition. It does say pascha but using common sense (which is what we see in the article posted) it couldn't mean Easter as we know it, the dates just don't line up. So even if Strong's got it wrong (at least in this case), God (as usual) got it right.

    This "Easter" we read about in Acts was the "Pagan" Easter, not the "Christian" Easter celebrated by Christians today, which was instituted by the Catholic church and is not biblical at all (probably instituted in order to try and take the Pagans away from their "Easter" which was worship of Ishtar, Isis, Diana, or one of the other Pagan goddesses). This is similar to the way that they instituted Christmas (also not biblical) in place of pagan Saturnaliia. Nowhere in scripture do we see the original church celebrating these two Pagan holidays.

    G3957 πάσχα pascha pas'-khah
    Of Chaldee origin (compare [H6453]); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):—Easter, Passover.
     
  19. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Actually the future is accounted for when it says, "he shall separate the goats on the left from the sheep on the right". And then 2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells you that the goats will be forever destroyed.
     
  20. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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