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Featured how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. AACJ

    AACJ Please Pray

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    Thanks for the post.

    I am not familiar with this author, but it seems to represent the "example" or "moral" views of the Atonement.

    The two problems, of course, with these views are that they can do nothing to change the fallen nature of man. They do nothing to remove the sin everyone commits daily. Sin cannot be joined to God, yet God commands us to be joined to Him. Effective change can only occur with the death of the "old man." That is a spiritual work and thus can only occur by the Spirit of God giving birth to us. Only that which is spiritual can give birth to that which is spiritual. Only that which is spiritual in nature can be joined to God who is Spirit. Such is not possible by example/inspiration alone.

    Also, of course, those views avoid the necessity of justice. It is our experience in societies the world over that without justice, there is no prosperity of any sort.

    I surmise that those two views are attractive to those desiring to work for their salvation (not that that is the case with you)

    (Sorry for not looking up supporting Scripture. they are there though)
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  2. AACJ

    AACJ Please Pray

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    .
     
  3. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I disagree. Christ's death on the cross covers our shame. I believe this sort of love is exactly the transformative kind. What really began my journey into looking into this alternative view (but never unOrthodox view) was this ministry of Fr Greg Boyle's. To me....these demonstrate the transformative kind of love God has for us:





    There is a variety of justice you're probably overlooking---and that's largely what HomeBoy Industries employs---"restorative justice". I believe that's God's form of justice for the very reason I believe you've pointed out: that God's life was valuable. I don't believe He died for a partial restoration of all things He created. I believe He's reconciling ALL things to Him (as Col 1:20 says). An example of restorative justice:

     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Who said the fire is literal?

    Here is how to explain it to a young child. Image after you die, that you come into the presence of God who is infinite love, but you can not stay with him because you never chose to become God's friend. Then you are removed from the presence of God and his love, would that feel like torture to you? Matthew 25:46 Most children are smart enough to ask how they can become God's friend. That simple.
     
  6. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Ummmmmm...what has this got to do with what i posted and the post i was responding to?
     
  7. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Do a word study on eternity, destruction and perish. Eternity/eternal are translated from the Greek words, aion / aionios. These words have variable meanings: generation(s), lifetime(s), age(s), epoch, world. When it is used to describe God, His domain or our salvation it means a spiritual existence without end. When it is applied to temporal physical things (everything else), then it has a finite meaning. Everlasting would translate into age-lasting or age-during as well, which is also finite.
    Hades (Sheol) is a place where the unsaved dead go and await their ultimate destruction, which means, they get resurrected and thrown into the Lake of Fire(Hell).

    Please show me any Greek grammar which says "When [aion/aionios] is used to describe God, His domain or our salvation it means a spiritual existence without end. When it is applied to temporal physical things (everything else), then it has a finite meaning?"

    The word most often translated "destruction" is ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
    (1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

    I believe the Lake of Fire is literal, like a volcanic lava lake. Imagine being thrown in there -- how long would it take for you to die? Paper burns and that's it, it doesn't keep burning. The best visual imagery to date I think is that scene in Lord of the Rings where Golum falls into the river of lava.
    When God chooses He can place or allow someone or thing thing to be in fire and not be destroyed. See e.g. Exodus 3:2 the burning bush Daniel 3:23 The 3 Hebrew slaves
    In Revelation 20:14, Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed -- put an end to. Wait a minute, death is destroyed? Think about it, the wages of sin is death, but then death comes to an end!
    How would God be glorified by allowing billions of souls who have sinned for anywhere from childhood to 80 years or so? God is fair and in the Bible we see His justice and it has always been fair and for a time - finite. The punishment matches the crime. Even Hitler's crimes shouldn't be eternal. Even if his punishment was 6 million lifetimes, eventually it ends at some point.

    Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence therefore it cannot literally be thrown anywhere. But there is a death which can be thrown into the LofF.

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    The angels of death and hades will be thrown into the LofF and their power to kill ended.
    How was God glorified when He destroyed all the people on the earth, old, young, men women, children, infants, except for Noah and his family? How was God glorified when the destroyed all the people in Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, old, young, men, women, children, infants? How was God glorified when He commanded Israel to go into Canaan and destroy the cites and everyone in them old, young, men. women, children infants?
    Deuteronomy 32:25
    (25) The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  8. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    If humans are not immortal then they will die when they are put to death, they will not live forever. Everlasting life is what is promised for those who are able to eat from the tree of life who is our Lord, God and Saviour.
    Where do you think life comes from? Does it not come from God?
     
  9. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    The everlasting punishement that is death lasts forever, I do not deny it. I do not deny that those who are thus destroyed are cast into the fire either. However, those who face eternal destruction (the 2nd death) will be destroyed forever, as opposed to those who die and then are ressurected to life in Christ Jesus. Eternal death is just that, death that last for eternity that one does not come back from.

    This should be horrifying enough and meets all of the requirements of justice, it is also completley Biblical without a trace of Greek mysticism anywhere, unlike the view of eternal life in hell.

    My reason for considering this to be true is not what I want, rather it is based upon a study that begins with a complete understanding of the Hebrew word "nephesh" and the implications drawn from this understanding.

    I have realised that the doctrine of unconditional human immortality; which makes eternal life in Hell a valid teaching, is completley wrong and in fact undermines some very key teachings relating to the Gospel.

    For example how can a person be ressurected from the dead if they do not in fact die? We are promised a ressurection after the example of Christ Jesus who died (really died) and then risen from the dead. If the living do not die the there is no ressurection from the dead, if there is no ressurection from the dead, then Christ was not ressurected either, and if Christ was not ressurected then we are all dead in our sins and looking forward only to death.
     
  10. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    Yes the second death is eternal and dead, yes there is a lake of fire, but none of this implies eternal life given to those who are condemned to death.
    The smoke of their torment rises forever does not imply that anybody is alive. It is the smoke that is rising not the people. If I throw a bug into the fire the smoke of that fire that tormented the bug lasts for as long as I want it to. But it is very silly to suggest that the bug lives as long as the smoke rises.
    God promises that the punishment for sin is death, and has done so from the beginning. This is no idle threat and it is something terrible that we should indeed flee. Certainly the Pharisees who were about to stone the woman caught in adultery understood the horror of having ones name written in the dust so there is really no need to invent sick medieval tortures on top of it like some sadistic inquisitor.
     
  11. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    You have missed it! read carefully and you will see, "their torment will rise for ever and ever", which means that these "referred" to here, belonging to the class (THEIR) of those have the "mark of the beast", that is ALL the lost, will be "tormented eternally". You cannot detract from this without doing an injustice to the passage!
     
  12. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    Yes the smoke of their torment. In other words the fire caused their torment smokes, they were executed in the fire and this caused their torment as they died. Very horrible. But it does not thereby imply that they go onto eternal life.
    So how will they be tormented when they are dead (for the penalty for sin is death)?
    Even if this one passage carries the inference you are looking for, the overwhelming revelation of the Bible, over and over again, is that the penalty for sin is deatrh, that the human soul is extinguished at death, that our names are written in the dust, that we are destroyed etc etc.
    God has at not time made revelation that the penalty for sin is eternal life.
     
  13. AACJ

    AACJ Please Pray

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    The eternal life you have referenced describes not only eternality, but also quality of life. So of course Scripture is going to use different phrasing to describe the quality of everlasting life of believers as distinct from the quality of the everlasting life of those who perish in their sins.
     
  14. AACJ

    AACJ Please Pray

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    We can only know what constitutes death except by using a standard to determine such. We cannot know what death is except from that which is Life, which is God Almighty Himself. God is necessarily the very standard whereby we can determine what constitutes death and life.

    The penalty for breaking God’s commands is death, Why? Because God is Life (Psalms 36:9; John 14:6), and sin—the breaking of God’s Law—separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2). Whoever is separated from God is therefore separated from Life, and whoever is separated from Life is necessarily dead. Once such a transgressor is rendered non-existent, there is no more separation, because true separation is only possible between those persons or objects that actually exist. So where there is no true separation there can literally be no death. Therefore, within the model of Annihilationism, there can be no true lasting death--in any sense--after material death.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  15. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    You always seem to like the YLT, but you don't use it here.
    Young's Literal Translation
    And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters, Who is dwelling at thy left hand, And thy younger sister, who is dwelling on thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
    In this case using "is" instead of was changes the meaning.

    You keep quoting this verse when it is clear Paul said in verse 1 of that chapter we are justified by faith.
    So Jesus Christ who is the Savior of the world will only save those who trust in Him.
    There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus' disciple Thomas refused to believe in His resurrection unless he see Him with his own eyes & put his hand into His wounded side. When Jesus appeared through the walls into the room where Thomas was, Thomas believed. Do you suppose atheists who say the same thing as Thomas will not believe after death or resurrection when they see Jesus?

    According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

    Statement of Faith -- Please Read

    7 Myths About Universalism


    Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
     
  17. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Thomas was still breathing air above ground when he said.
    If an atheist dies as an atheist he will find out how wrong he was, but it will be to late.
    If we were to have a chance to repent after we die, why would anyone make a decision for Christ?
    All who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
    People could live however they wanted during this life and still get eternal life.
    Doesn't seem like a very just God to me.
    And Jesus said if you do that you are a fool.
    Luke 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
    12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
    12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
    12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
    12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

    You say God is Love Omnipotent, but I never hear you talk about His holiness or wrath.
    Does this verse in Psalm 137 sound like a God of love?
    :9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
    God would love to have everybody get saved, but He will not go against our freewill.
    Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    Who cares what is in the Islamic Quran says, and wasn't it written well after the Bible was?
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So God gave to Thomas what would save him, but He's going to deny the same to the atheist? And why, because His love expires like a carton of milk at the moment of death? How & when do aborted babies, then, get born again?


    I've already told you, hell, not endless tortures. And how can anyone make a decision for Christ whom they've never heard of, 5 and 10 year olds & retards included.

    And hell for maybe thousands of years? Who wants that? Even unbelievers suffer persecutions & from horrible diseases etc. Everyone suffers. Many Christians suffer little.

    The Bible says God is the justifier of everyone believing in Jesus. There's no time limits mentioned there.

    Yes, it's quite foolish to choose to go to hell.

    His holiness speaks of His being separate from other gods, such as the Koran god who endlessly tortures humans. His wrath is not what He is, which is Love. His wrath is for the loving correction of sinners:

    Because I have sinned against him,
    I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
    until he pleads my case
    and upholds my cause.
    He will bring me out into the light;
    I will see his righteousness.
    (Micah 7:9)



    Who is that talking? God, or David who committed premeditated adultery and murder? In any case, a quick death like that is nothing compared to how many people die, even by abortion, or cancer. And of course nothing compared to endless tortures. How can you even compare the two? See also some commentaries on that verse:

    Psalm 137:9 Commentaries: How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.


    According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

    Statement of Faith -- Please Read

    7 Myths About Universalism


    Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

    http://tentmaker.org/blog1/universalism/

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  19. Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane

    Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane Active Member Supporter

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    I totally agree Clement of A with your first post. i don't want to forge a faith with this...suffering. yes, engrave upon your eye the image of injustice indeed. but i think hell is a form of injustice all in itself and so therefore i don't believe in it but i believe in it being a headquarters for demons and lucifer. when death diminishes us and transfers us to the spirit world, we are in the glory of god and his heaven for us.
     
  20. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    Scripture is clear:
    "Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' [...] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41, 46

    It's a reality we have to face. Some people are doomed to eternal fire, and it's because of the decisions they made. God didn't force them to sin, and neither did anyone else. We choose for ourselves to reject God's mercy and embrace sin, and God won't force us to spend eternity with Him when we made it very clear in our lives that we'd rather remain in sin.
     
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