How do I know who is a schismatic?

[RobNJ]

When the "Bishop" has a staff, that looks like a drape rod.........

 

[ArmyMatt]

When the "Bishop" has a staff, that looks like a drape rod.........

View attachment 251035

oh, there he is! I was waiting for Swift Eagle Justice to show up

 

[Anhelyna]

He's got such a happy smiling friendly face

 

[Ignatius21]

I put a lot of thought into this at one point -- as there are some canonical Orthodox who come pretty close to basically saying the OCA isn't actually Orthodox, yet here I am anyway -- and I have to conclude that there really is no single objective test for whether a given parish or group of parishes is canonical. There was a time when (I believe, from reading) that Arians had the upper hand over the Orthodox, and anyone who converted to Christianity and asked "but what about those little churches over there, the ones who insist that Jesus is coeternal with the Father? They're on the outs with the empire and are probably schismatic" would probably have understandably, and wrongly, concluded that the Arians were the real deal. Is it possible that ONE tiny sect could become the one that's actually held onto the true faith, while the rest of the world falls into apostasy? I don't think it's impossible.

Whenever a schism occurs, the two sides always step back and point at each other as being the schismatics. That's obvious. Historically, whichever side has the backing of whichever state controls that part of the church usually wins, at least for a while. Iconoclasm had a temporary triumph that way. Luther's ideas would never have solidified into a new type of church without the backing of the German princes, who didn't want Rome taking any more of their land or taxes.

Rome offers a tidy answer -- you're in or you're out -- depending on whether you're in communion with the Pope of Rome. And of course you can find some really whacky sects and churches around the world that are in communion with Rome, but appear to have deviated almost entirely from any semblance to historic Catholicism. And there are "One True Honest We-Really-Mean-It Catholic Church" sects that are clearly in schism, but would appear to be far closer to Catholic tradition (at least, medieval Catholic tradition) than most modern American parishes, but they're out.

Protestants often try to solve it by appealing to "the Bible." Just read the Bible and you'll see whether Denomination X is legit! And we Orthodox rightly point out the flaw in that logic. But then many Orthodox will offer precisely the same answer themselves, saying things like "Whichever jurisdiction is closer to the Fathers." Which Fathers? Which interpretation of the Fathers? And if the individual has to make that call, then hasn't the individual basically just become a Protestant, putting his/her own interpretation of Scripture and Tradition above that of the True Church? (Which, of course, he/she can't identify by any other means...)

Catholics point that out, to say "See what chaos happens when you don't have a Pope! Come home! Follow the Pope!" and then thousands leave after learning of decades (or longer) of cover ups and horrific sexual abuse scandals around the world -- asking "Would the True Church have been blind to *that*???"

But those are my philosophical ramblings. I spent years trying to find what I believed to be the true church of the apostles. I found it in Orthodoxy -- after many years of MY own reading, MY own experience, and MY own reasoning -- which any Protestant will point out is not dissimilar from their own journeys into Lutheranism/Pentecostalism/what-have-you. For that reason I cannot smack down someone else who has arrived at a different terminus than I have. What about "Oriental" Orthodoxy? Goodness, I've barely read about it and there's only one church nearby and they mainly speak Egyptian. I can't give a logical, reasoned answer to why I'm not that, instead of this.

As to "which paris or jurisdiction is actually considered canonical with respect to established, global Eastern Orthodoxy..." Until the hot mess that just developed between Russia and Constantinople, communion with the latter was kind of a test. It's more like "look around and see what the overall temperature is in the Orthodox room" I guess. I personally look heavily at the attitudes of those who lead a parish. If you find bitterness, resentment, unwillingness to listen, and a quickness to rain fire and brimstone down upon the heads of any who disagree -- combined with a name like "The One True Only Church Of Non-Heretical Orthodox With Beards" -- then it isn't the real church. They will know we are Christians by our love.

I've met plenty who observe the Old Calendar, and do so out of love. I've met others who define their lives around it, are obsessed with it, and think the Devil and all others who observe the Gregorian Calendar will burn in the enteral pit -- and they're frankly just mean, bitter people. Big difference.

Did I actually make a point? I can't tell sometimes

 

[peregrinus2017]

with a name like "The One True Only Church Of Non-Heretical Orthodox With Beards" -- then it isn't the real church.

Come on, you must know you can't be Orthodox without a beard.

 

[Lukaris]

In the US:

Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States of America.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Old Calendar movement made a lot of sense. They got fed up with new calendars like these....

Come on, people. Can you blame em???

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Sadly, The Onion Dome website is closed by Mousethief. It was a satirical website along the lines of The Onion which had a great list of Fr. Vasily Vasiliovitch jokes about everything being better in 19th century Russia. There were also posts about the Very Holy Very Blue Very True Orthodox Church of Very Holy Very Orthodox Greece. Sigh, I wish he would release them again. It would give you everything you need about these various schismatic bodies.

 

[RobNJ]

Sadly, The Onion Dome website is closed by Mousethief. It was a satirical website along the lines of The Onion which had a great list of Fr. Vasily Vasiliovitch jokes about everything being better in 19th century Russia. There were also posts about the Very Holy Very Blue Very True Orthodox Church of Very Holy Very Orthodox Greece. Sigh, I wish he would release them again. It would give you everything you need about these various schismatic bodies.

EDITED:
Check the ebook version, on Amazon: Is Outrage! The Wit and Wisdom of Father Vasiliy Vasileivich from The Onion Dome

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Vasiliy Vasileivich....that’s kind of like Gozer the Gozarian, isn’t it?

EDITED:
Check the ebook version, on Amazon: Is Outrage! The Wit and Wisdom of Father Vasiliy Vasileivich from The Onion Dome

 

[RobNJ]

Vasiliy Vasileivich....that’s kind of like Gozer the Gozarian, isn’t it?

Before your time... "Father Vasily Vasileivich, official spokesman for the Church Overseas of Russian Orthodox Christians (COROC)" (A take off on ROCOR), St. Tikhon's seminary was called "St. Toucan's" Every O'dox person with a saints name, had the rest of the saint's title in parentheses after the name (frequently an obscure one)
In my mind, I always imagined Fr. V sounding like a cross between Tevye, from the "Fiddler On The Roof" moviem and Boris, from the old Rocky & Bullwinkle cartoons

 

[JasonV]

There's no satisfaction quite like setting up a nice strawman, and beating it to death while maniacally laughing at it. You should all pat yourselves on the back at being the real masters of the universe.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There's no satisfaction quite like setting up a nice strawman, and beating it to death while maniacally laughing at it. You should all pat yourselves on the back at being the real masters of the universe.

If you don't exactly fit that category then please don't be offended. I think I mentioned a woman in our parish who is from a schismatic group and I'm sure would still be in it if she could be. I admire and love her dearly. She's one of the most pious and deeply faithful Christians I know.

But we've met the other kind as well, who are either ridiculous or hateful or both. If you're not, then thank God (and I haven't seen you to be). But I think it's worth warning people who ask for a warning about such things.

God be with you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There's no satisfaction quite like setting up a nice strawman, and beating it to death while maniacally laughing at it. You should all pat yourselves on the back at being the real masters of the universe.

there was no strawman. some satire, yes, but no strawman.

 

[FireDragon76]

Aren't they the people who also say their church hasn't compromised to Zionist-papist alliance and that their priests aren't modernist homosexuals?

Are you familiar with Donatism? Donatists had an Orthodox faith, but they were schismatic because they chose to separate due to matters that were not essential to salvation. They did not believe God could minister through unworthy hands.

 

[RobNJ]

There's no satisfaction quite like setting up a nice strawman, and beating it to death while maniacally laughing at it. You should all pat yourselves on the back at being the real masters of the universe.

To, once again, paraphrase The Bard: "The schismatic doth protest too much, methinks"

 

[Not David]

Is there a similarity between the Sedevacantists from the Catholic Church and Schismatics Old Calendarists?

 

[ArmyMatt]

yep, sectarianism.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Is there a similarity between the Sedevacantists from the Catholic Church and Schismatics Old Calendarists?

Yeah, I would say it’s the same spirit of temptation. They see that what they perceive to be the Body of Christ has been abused, whipped, and Crucified like Christ Himself, and they say “If you are truly the Body of Christ, come down from the cross!”

 

[Paidiske]

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