How did Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings' help your faith journey?

.Mikha'el.

7x13=28
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
May 22, 2004
33,059
6,418
39
British Columbia
✟997,851.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I'd love to right away, but still haven't quite decided where it should go! ;) As I said, the book club forum is strictly not for theological discussions — and for me, a big point of talking about the Narnia books is discussing the theological ideas that come through in them — but most of the other forums that are open to all faiths are specifically for non-Christians to engage in discussions/debates about theology, ethics etc. with Christians, which doesn't seem quite what we're looking for.

I just thought it would be nice to have a Narnia discussion that's open to non-Christians as well, since I'm sure many people of other faiths and backgrounds have read the books (or seen the films) and have their own comments and insights to share. But if it is something that would be better off in the Christians-only forums like this present discussion, I'm happy for it to be there.

Is there a moderator around who could help us out here? :) (Again, sorry for derailing the Tolkien discussion for a moment — please carry on, everyone.)

I recommend the Book Club forum. :)
 
Upvote 0

Kerensa

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2017
750
911
Kent
✟95,891.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
When God first started me down this road, it was like I would start perking up inside and getting excited, and then reject it as being fleshly or my sin-nature and go back to the status quo. It took awhile before I realized that buried deep inside each one of us it that person God created us to be with all of our passions and interests. It is that unique person in each of us that God wants to use to reflect His glory and love to the world. For me, it wasn't until God started using imagery and stories to create an emotional and spiritual reaction inside of me that I started waking up and I realized that the person He meant me to be had been largely dormant for over 30 years as a Christian. As I started meditating on my life, I realized that the times when I had been most effective in ministry, and in general when I was at my best in life, was when that natural unique person inside me was awake and active. Since then, I've found my devotional times, my vocation, my hobbies, my ministry involvement have started to naturally flow with much less effort and yield much more fruit than they had. By no means does it mean everything is perfect now, but it was a deep profound spiritual change that affected all aspects of my life. My Christian walk has largely changed from being a big to-do list and meeting expectations into more of an adventure to be lived alongside God. In a large part, it was the language and imagery of stories that God used to start awakening my heart to who He meant me to be.

Love this - thanks so much for sharing all these thoughts about your journey, Gandalf. :glowingstar:
 
  • Like
Reactions: archer75
Upvote 0

Kerensa

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2017
750
911
Kent
✟95,891.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I recommend the Book Club forum. :)

Thanks, Mikha'el. That's the first place I thought of too - I'm just concerned that the Book Club forum has a rule about not discussing theology there. It would be very easy to overstep that mark in a discussion about the Narnia books. We've already, for example, had someone in this current thread raise the pertinent question of whether these books are in line with Christian orthodoxy, particularly in their use of magic and creatures from pagan mythology. Or else there are plenty of other theological issues relating to the books that would be interesting to discuss. But I'm pretty sure that would soon go outside the bounds of what's allowed in Book Club threads.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,173
9,191
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,152,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I dont think tolkiens christianity shows up much in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Not deliberately. But its inevitable it would of affected his writing in some way.

I sort of agree with that, in that it is not very obvious, but....I think it's like messages that are alike to Christianity and also there is the background in the story of God who sent the helpers like Gandalf (much like old testament prophets in some ways).

The orcs are controlled by evil, the dark lord, with a lust for power, and the way evil is defeated is by hope, faith, and perseverance with the objective of giving up that potent object of power, the ring, to be surrendered into non existence, instead of being used.

In the story then, the power from the ring is a metaphor for human power in our own world, as used both personally, and in organizations and nations. Power corrupts, and leads to evil. The American ideal is to resist this power with the ideal of "Freedom". That's the American ideal of freedom at its best, resistance against the domination of man by man.
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟85,556.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings

TOLKIEN SAID THE BOOKS ARE NOT CHRISTIAN ALLEGORIES

In his last interview in 1971, Tolkien stated that he did not intend The Lord of the Rings as a Christian allegory and that Christ is not depicted in his fantasy novels. When asked about the efforts of the trilogy’s hero, Frodo, to struggle on and destroy the ring, Tolkien said, “But that seems I suppose more like an allegory of the human race. I’ve always been impressed that we’re here surviving because of the indomitable courage of quite small people against impossible odds: jungles, volcanoes, wild beasts... they struggle on, almost blindly in a way” (Interview by Dennis Gerrolt; it was first broadcast in January 1971 on BBC Radio 4 program “Now Read On…”). That doesn’t sound like the gospel to me. When Gerrolt asked Tolkien, “Is the book to be considered as an allegory?” the author replied, “No. I dislike allegory whenever I smell it.”

Thus, the author of The Lord of the Rings denied the very thing that some Christians today are claiming, that these fantasies are an allegory of Christ’s victory over the devil.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Kerensa
Upvote 0

Godlovesmetwo

Fringe Catholic
Mar 16, 2016
10,398
7,257
Antwerp
✟17,860.00
Country
Djibouti
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
(wiki)
In one of his letters Tolkien states, "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Kerensa

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2017
750
911
Kent
✟95,891.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That's very interesting, Dougangel — I've also never thought Tolkien intended his works to be allegorical in any way. He always expressly denied that, as I've mentioned earlier — whether people try to read LOTR and the rest as allegories of Biblical narratives, World War II, occult themes or anything else. His Catholic faith certainly underlay what he wrote, but it seems pretty clear he never intended at all to represent that faith directly.

However, just looking at the link you've provided, I can't agree either with the allegations that Tolkien's works are "occultic", "unscriptural and present a very dangerous message", "spiritually dangerous", "strictly pagan", etc. :rolleyes: It really saddens me when people of faith react with horror to any elements of mythology, magic, fantasy etc. as supposedly evil and dangerous — whether in Middle-earth, Narnia, Harry Potter or any other popular literature.

Like probably many others here, I'm a committed Christian and have loved the fantasy genre just about all my life. Tolkien and Lewis and other authors like them have understood that you can use elements of myth and legend to convey deeper messages in a way that the general public can readily absorb and enjoy. Generations of readers like us have done so without believing for a moment that these stories are actually teaching that God works through "magic", or that we ourselves should believe in and dabble in sorcery, or indeed that mythological creatures really exist. Children usually learn from a young age to tell (and enjoy) the difference between "real" and "make-believe", in stories and elsewhere. It would be nice if more grown-ups could do the same, really. o_O
 
Upvote 0

DeerGlow

User Gifted Supporter Status by Someone Else
Supporter
Oct 5, 2016
1,755
2,225
Texas
✟86,999.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
That's very interesting, Dougangel — I've also never thought Tolkien intended his works to be allegorical in any way. He always expressly denied that, as I've mentioned earlier — whether people try to read LOTR and the rest as allegories of Biblical narratives, World War II, occult themes or anything else. His Catholic faith certainly underlay what he wrote, but it seems pretty clear he never intended at all to represent that faith directly.

However, just looking at the link you've provided, I can't agree either with the allegations that Tolkien's works are "occultic", "unscriptural and present a very dangerous message", "spiritually dangerous", "strictly pagan", etc. :rolleyes: It really saddens me when people of faith react with horror to any elements of mythology, magic, fantasy etc. as supposedly evil and dangerous — whether in Middle-earth, Narnia, Harry Potter or any other popular literature.

Like probably many others here, I'm a committed Christian and have loved the fantasy genre just about all my life. Tolkien and Lewis and other authors like them have understood that you can use elements of myth and legend to convey deeper messages in a way that the general public can readily absorb and enjoy. Generations of readers like us have done so without believing for a moment that these stories are actually teaching that God works through "magic", or that we ourselves should believe in and dabble in sorcery, or indeed that mythological creatures really exist. Children usually learn from a young age to tell (and enjoy) the difference between "real" and "make-believe", in stories and elsewhere. It would be nice if more grown-ups could do the same, really. o_O

I found that writing an essay but, still, especially as it progresses the books (publishing order) seem to have more and more christian allusions, references and allegories.
 
Upvote 0

Godlovesmetwo

Fringe Catholic
Mar 16, 2016
10,398
7,257
Antwerp
✟17,860.00
Country
Djibouti
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Although The Lord of the Rings was published in the 1950s, Tolkien insisted that the One Ring was not an allegory for the atomic bomb,[61] nor were his works a strict allegory of any kind, but were open to interpretation as the reader saw fit
 
  • Agree
Reactions: dms1972
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Tolkien did not intend his works to be allegory but he did not deny that they have theological underpinnings that were applicable to the world. In fact most Tolkien Scholars will make a fairly strong argument for their applicability in a Christian moral context.

His Athrabeth in the works later published by his son Christopher is directly Christian and leaf by niggle is actually written as an allegory of purgatory.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Kerensa
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
His Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in the history of Middle Earth books is the most religious thing he wrote (with the possible exception of Leaf By Niggle).

A debate between the human wise woman Andreth and the Elven lord Finrod on the nature of things.

Andreth: They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.

And earlier Finrod gives a perfect description of Christian Hope (Which would be Estel as opposed to a simple hope with proof Amdir):

'Have ye then no hope?’ said Finrod.

'What is hope?’ she said. 'An expectation of good, which though uncertain has some foundation in what is known? Then we have none.’

'That is one thing that Men call “hope”,’ said Finrod. ’Amdir we call it, “looking up”. But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is “trust”. It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children’s joy. Amdir you have not, you say. Does no Estel at all abide?’


–J.R.R. Tolkien, The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth’s Ring, “Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth”
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Tolkien did not like allegory that was direct he had...what he called a casual or cordial dislike of allegory. But he did not dismiss that something could have a moral or theological basis that made it applicable. His desire was, many believe, to base the world he wrote in what he saw as eternal truths that were reflected by good and evil. It is subtle but effective.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,776
3,376
✟242,001.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
And earlier Finrod gives a perfect description of Christian Hope (Which would be Estel as opposed to a simple hope with proof Amdir):

'Have ye then no hope?’ said Finrod.

'What is hope?’ she said. 'An expectation of good, which though uncertain has some foundation in what is known? Then we have none.’

'That is one thing that Men call “hope”,’ said Finrod. ’Amdir we call it, “looking up”. But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is “trust”. It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children’s joy. Amdir you have not, you say. Does no Estel at all abide?’


–J.R.R. Tolkien, The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth’s Ring, “Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth”

And what was Aragorn renamed to hide his lineage and keep him safe until he came of age? Estel!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
And what was Aragorn renamed to hide his lineage and keep him safe until he came of age? Estel!

Yep and the beautiful last words of his mother that played on his name: "I gave Hope (an obvious reference to her son's nickname) to the Dúnedain, I have kept no hope for myself.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Lewis and Tolkien took two different and fascinating approaches. One (Lewis) direct allegory and denying it to get it past what has been called the "Watchful Dragons" who try to eliminate all that is Christian in literature for children. Tolkien felt the Truth was so deep in creation that when we subcreate (as he called it) the Truth could inform all the actions in the work and get to the heart of the reader subtly. He wanted to tell a True Myth (as per his discussion with Lewis when Lewis was an atheist) where the story itself conveyed the truth on a deep, permanent and subtle level. Essentially the opposite of direct allegory. So no Frodo or Aragorn are not Allegories for Christ. But they contain truths that reflect both Christ and fallen humanity at times. Applicability rather than allegory.

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”

J.R.R. Tolkien

Tolkien wanted to tell a story infused with the Truth, a subcreation. He did not want to purposefully dominate what the reader felt. He wanted to Truth to touch them. And if it did not, it was a good story. But if it was more it was because Truth touched, not dominated the reader. So there are applicable elements, not allegory. And there are touches like March 25th. But it is not a one for one allegory. But it is innately a Catholic and Christian work by his own admission. It is just not purposed allegory. That is a different genre.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Really glad you posted Davidnic. I remember you saying you watch Lord of the Rings every year. is that right? As a kind of faith reinforcement exercise?

I watch it a good bit. I reread it every year. Not for faith, but for the story. But it does always help to uplift because of the themes.
 
Upvote 0