How did the Thessalonians get confused about the Day of the lord?

[UN161]

Hello everyone, this is my first post in here.

My question (probably one of many) is In 2nd Thessalonians, Paul writes to them about there confusion of the day of the Lord and that it already happened or "is at hand"

For Pre Trib, the question is, Why would the Thessalonians write to Paul if they thought there was a "rapture and that Paul and them should of just disappeared? (a view I think is the most farfetched of all the views)

For the rest, If the Day of the Lord is the "LAST DAY" and the End of the world,
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

How could the Thessalonians think the Day of the Lord happened when the world wasn't destroyed by fire? How could they think the world went on after the day of lord?

Im leaning towards partial preterism in my views, but I don't see how The bible can't see past ad 70 either and how The great tribulation (if in ad 70 says it will never be equaled when surely Muhammad was more of a false prophet then Rome), and how we are now in the "kingdom" If the power of Islam is not from satan then nothing ever was.

 

[frienden thalord]

Try and remember these words too...................they say the resurrection is past already and over throw the faith of some.
Its not in thess, but it does pertain to why some thought the day of the LORD was past.
They believed as some do today that the day of the Lord , or resurrection day, is when Christ ascends in our hearts.
This is not the case. Though their is truth to the part of a new life resurrection.
but some teach the day of the LORD is what happens when Christ enters our hearts.
I too have tried to help our modern day friends , to correct them. But often it falls on deaf ears.
As for pretrib, I can show where this too is not the case.
THE day of the LORD will come , however, and the earth will burn and all its works burned up.
That is a future day.
I have no idea what preterism is,
I only know what I have read in the bible. Well , by rereading your writings on it , it sounds like I wont be agreeing with it.
The great tribulation has NOT occurred yet, many tribulations have, but not the final last hour.

 

[frienden thalord]

However , soon we will be in the great tribulation.
NO doubt on that. Have you seen interfaith yet..............that religion will be made law in time all for world peace.
Its leading right to the man of peace...........son of perdition, who through peace shall destroy many.
not only that .....but look at all the end time signs
without natural affection.............man with man , woman with woman
that sure is big today. as of late.
Falling away..........God of forces
divide the land for gain............
hints all over the bible my friend, signs of the times all around us, yet so few see it.
oh, here is another .......as in the days of noah
most see the part where it says men being continually evil
but it also says...........violence everywhere...............take a look around.
the land was full of violence. And peace pact coming.........I don't think its coinindence
where it says that he will divide the land for gain.........cause the last time I checked
they plan to divide jerusalme for peace..................oh, yes many signs are all over.

 

[iamlamad]

Hello everyone, this is my first post in here.

My question (probably one of many) is In 2nd Thessalonians, Paul writes to them about there confusion of the day of the Lord and that it already happened or "is at hand"

For Pre Trib, the question is, Why would the Thessalonians write to Paul if they thought there was a "rapture and that Paul and them should of just disappeared? (a view I think is the most farfetched of all the views)

For the rest, If the Day of the Lord is the "LAST DAY" and the End of the world,
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

How could the Thessalonians think the Day of the Lord happened when the world wasn't destroyed by fire? How could they think the world went on after the day of lord?

Im leaning towards partial preterism in my views, but I don't see how The bible can't see past ad 70 either and how The great tribulation (if in ad 70 says it will never be equaled when surely Muhammad was more of a false prophet then Rome), and how we are now in the "kingdom" If the power of Islam is not from satan then nothing ever was.

Paul wrote that they were very upset. If you were among them and you remember that Paul taught you in person that the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord - and then someone came along and preached that the DAY had already begun and you were IN IT - would you be a little disturbed? Either Paul was mistaken in what he had taught them in person, or they were NOT now in the DAY.

So Paul's argument is to show they how anyone can know for sure that they are IN the day of the Lord and know that it has begun: if they see the man of sin revealed, that will be proof positive that the DAY has begun and one is already IN that Day.

But one caveat: the departing (of the church) must come FIRST before that man of sin can be revealed. So Paul has included in this passage the timing of the rapture in keeping with his theme: the gathering.

Just so you know, the "Day of the Lord" or the day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal, and from then on the 7th seal must come, then the 7 trumpets, and then the 7 vials, and finally, after some unknown time of the marriage and supper in heaven, THEN, FINALLY Jesus will return. Therefore your theory of the DAY is wrong. It will be an EXTENDED period of time, probably even to include the 1000 year reign of Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

Paul wrote that they were very upset. If you were among them and you remember that Paul taught you in person that the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord - and then someone came along and preached that the DAY had already begun and you were IN IT - would you be a little disturbed? Either Paul was mistaken in what he had taught them in person, or they were NOT now in the DAY.

So Paul's argument is to show they how anyone can know for sure that they are IN the day of the Lord and know that it has begun: if they see the man of sin revealed, that will be proof positive that the DAY has begun and one is already IN that Day.

But one caveat: the departing (of the church) must come FIRST before that man of sin can be revealed. So Paul has included in this passage the timing of the rapture in keeping with his theme: the gathering.

Just so you know, the "Day of the Lord" or the day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal, and from then on the 7th seal must come, then the 7 trumpets, and then the 7 vials, and finally, after some unknown time of the marriage and supper in heaven, THEN, FINALLY Jesus will return. Therefore your theory of the DAY is wrong. It will be an EXTENDED period of time, probably even to include the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The first chapter of 2 Thessalonians makes it clear how Christ will return for the Church.


2Th 1:1　 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:　
2Th 1:2　 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.　



2Th 1:3　 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,　
2Th 1:4　 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,　



2Th 1:5　 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;　
2Th 1:6　 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,　
2Th 1:7　 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.　
2Th 1:9　 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,　
2Th 1:10　 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.　
2Th 1:11　 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,　
2Th 1:12　 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


It will be very obvious when He returns in "Flaming Fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.
　

 

[frienden thalord]

The falling away of the church aint the rapture.
Its what we in right now , and its getting worse.
Take a peek at the doctrine in these churches today. aint good.
Christ aint Honored, MAN is
Christ aint taught, mans doctrines are.
and interfaith will cause the lump of leaven to just rise to the full
as more and more christains sell out the gospel of peace
for world peace
the unity of the Spirit, for the unity of man
the Love of GOD, for the love of the world.
And by grace, I will be here to warn out against such wicked concepts.
our common unity aint football , nor the things of the World.
ITS CHRIST and if men wont see that , they will be told I never knew you.
All these good works that interfaith preaches , in the name of world peace will save none.
Tis why so many will hear, I never knew you, even though many good works they had done.
Their idea of tolerance is a joke. Its a tolerance that allows the true message to be shut down
and it does so in the name of wordly love and unity and peace.
Its death and its end is the second death.
We had better flee any concept of interfaith , before its too late.
for its world peace , its tolerance, its love , its unity is based on man and not the gospel.
and it will lead to man, to a man who comes and by PEACE shall destroy many.

 

[Revealing Times]

The falling away of the church aint the rapture.
Its what we in right now , and its getting worse.
Take a peek at the doctrine in these churches today. aint good.
Christ aint Honored, MAN is
Christ aint taught, mans doctrines are.
and interfaith will cause the lump of leaven to just rise to the full
as more and more christains sell out the gospel of peace
for world peace
the unity of the Spirit, for the unity of man
the Love of GOD, for the love of the world.
And by grace, I will be here to warn out against such wicked concepts.
our common unity aint football , nor the things of the World.
ITS CHRIST and if men wont see that , they will be told I never knew you.
All these good works that interfaith preaches , in the name of world peace will save none.
Tis why so many will hear, I never knew you, even though many good works they had done.
Their idea of tolerance is a joke. Its a tolerance that allows the true message to be shut down
and it does so in the name of wordly love and unity and peace.
Its death and its end is the second death.
We had better flee any concept of interfaith , before its too late.
for its world peace , its tolerance, its love , its unity is based on man and not the gospel.
and it will lead to man, to a man who comes and by PEACE shall destroy many.

There is no "Falling Away" its the Departure of the Church here. Now you look through the passage again and tell me where anything about "the Faith" is even implied much less mentioned. But on the other hand the Rapture is mentioned (the Gathering together unto the Lord).

The first seven English Translations say DEPART or DEPARTING.............And the subject is the Church being Raptured before the Day of the Lord. (A 3 1/2 year period of Gods Wrath). The Latin Vulgate bible used a word from 400 AD to 1400 AD that also meant DEPARTURE.

No faith is mentioned anywhere. Another place where the tradition of men get things wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

The falling away of the church aint the rapture.
Its what we in right now , and its getting worse.
Take a peek at the doctrine in these churches today. aint good.
Christ aint Honored, MAN is
Christ aint taught, mans doctrines are.
and interfaith will cause the lump of leaven to just rise to the full
as more and more christains sell out the gospel of peace
for world peace
the unity of the Spirit, for the unity of man
the Love of GOD, for the love of the world.
And by grace, I will be here to warn out against such wicked concepts.
our common unity aint football , nor the things of the World.
ITS CHRIST and if men wont see that , they will be told I never knew you.
All these good works that interfaith preaches , in the name of world peace will save none.
Tis why so many will hear, I never knew you, even though many good works they had done.
Their idea of tolerance is a joke. Its a tolerance that allows the true message to be shut down
and it does so in the name of wordly love and unity and peace.
Its death and its end is the second death.
We had better flee any concept of interfaith , before its too late.
for its world peace , its tolerance, its love , its unity is based on man and not the gospel.
and it will lead to man, to a man who comes and by PEACE shall destroy many.

There will be NO GREAT FALLING AWAY. Those words were created by the KJV translators and were and are a very poor translation that simply does not fit the context of the passage. It is a great or significant DEPARTING.

 

[Riberra]

There will be NO GREAT FALLING AWAY. Those words were created by the KJV translators and were and are a very poor translation that simply does not fit the context of the passage. It is a great or significant DEPARTING.

DEPARTING from the Faith ...the majority of today's PROTESTANT Churches -believers - have faith IN THE BELIEF of a PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, they are not interested in the SECOND COMING OF JESUS...> The TRUE COMING Of Jesus in Glory[The Parousia Titus 2:13] is secondary for the majority [99.9 %]of you!

The proof is that the blessed hope of the Christians which is the Coming of Jesus in Glory [Titus 2:13]have been twisted by the pre -trib rapture doctors [doctoring the meaning of the text] into a secret coming of Jesus visible only by selected believers which is supposed to happen before the Second Coming of Jesus in GLORY...

Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the GLORIOUS appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

If you believe that Titus 2:13 is about a pre-tribulation rapture rather that about the Second Coming Of Jesus IN GLORY....you have been FOOLED !

 

[UN161]

I don't see how can you make something in that verse that isn't there, such as a rapture in that chapter. If the rapture is so important then the bible would mention it more, then just some very vague words. The main concern about everything is the second coming. Im just trying to figure out, if the day of the lord was not just BANG end of the world, and if it is a time period.. Why didn't paul just tell them, don't be concerned about the Day of The lord coming, it will be the time the earth burns up. They wouldnt be confused after that.

 

[frienden thalord]

The thing with this generation especially. They don't want to have to suffer for Christ.
Like we some kind of special not appointed to tribulation .
Them wicked prosperity preachers preaching money and good times has destroyed the church.
Instead of preparing the people to endure a immense tribulation, which by the way,
IS ON THE WAY,
they prepare them to escape suffering .
Mentality of bless ME , Bless me syndrome.
Well I am warning all, don't sell out , when the persecutions gets nasty.
Years later Chinese preachers wept hard
because they had prepared the church to escape persecution
then when it hit , most lost faith.
Be prepared . We are about to endure a harsh persecution.
and it comes in the name of love , peace, unity , world peace
sorry wicked interfaith.
I refuse to sell out to that lie. I would rather die ten thousand of the worst
deaths, than go be unequally yoked with other religions ,
preach the gospel . Good works wont save a muslim
ONLY JESUS can convert that heart . World peace. I refuse
I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with that worthless , satanic
religion of interfaith. I pray others lose all affection for it too.
The gospel Offends. So be it. Better to preach JESUS
and get stoned by others, than to sell out and find common ground in Football.
OUR unity aint foot ball, sir francis, its JESUS.

 

[UN161]

The thing with this generation especially. They don't want to have to suffer for Christ.
Like we some kind of special not appointed to tribulation .
Them wicked prosperity preachers preaching money and good times has destroyed the church.
Instead of preparing the people to endure a immense tribulation, which by the way,
IS ON THE WAY,
they prepare them to escape suffering .
Mentality of bless ME , Bless me syndrome.
Well I am warning all, don't sell out , when the persecutions gets nasty.
Years later Chinese preachers wept hard
because they had prepared the church to escape persecution
then when it hit , most lost faith.
Be prepared . We are about to endure a harsh persecution.
and it comes in the name of love , peace, unity , world peace
sorry wicked interfaith.
I refuse to sell out to that lie. I would rather die ten thousand of the worst
deaths, than go be unequally yoked with other religions ,
preach the gospel . Good works wont save a muslim
ONLY JESUS can convert that heart . World peace. I refuse
I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with that worthless , satanic
religion of interfaith. I pray others lose all affection for it too.
The gospel Offends. So be it. Better to preach JESUS
and get stoned by others, than to sell out and find common ground in Football.
OUR unity aint foot ball, sir francis, its JESUS.

I really don't understand that at all......


All I'm asking if the day of the Lord Is the end of the world and no one is longer alive..., why would they be confused about it already happening.

 

[frienden thalord]

I really don't understand that at all......


All I'm asking if the day of the Lord Is the end of the world and no one is longer alive..., why would they be confused about it already happening.

I thought I answered that.
Some thought the day of the LORD was Jesus coming into your heart.
and burning away the wicked inside you.
they taught the resurrection was past already.
The day of the LORD will come. Read peter.
Does a good job of explaining it quite well.

 

[parousia70]

All I'm asking if the day of the Lord Is the end of the world and no one is longer alive..., why would they be confused about it already happening.

They wouldn't have been. Clearly they had a very different understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord that they were warned was "soon coming, near and about to take place".

What is interesting is Paul never corrects their notion. He could've simply walked them to the nearest graveyard and said "do you see any graves open?"

But he didn't.

Hymenaeus had a timing error, according to scripture, and that the timing error was hugely important. To answer why, I'd like to identify the damning, faith-destroying error Paul continuously addresses throughout his epistles:

Galatians 3:1-2,10
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?...as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse

Galatians 2:16,21
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified....I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly

Galatians 5:2-4
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


I could post a dozen other Pauline verses that repeat what was damming everyone in that generation, but those suffice. Belief that justification/salvation came from the Law Covenant of Moses was the damning, faith-destroying error Paul continuously had to address in his epistles.

It was for this same error that Hymenaeus was also being condemned by Paul, for Hymenaeus claimed that the release of the OT dead from Hades occurred within the Mosaic Covenant era. Hymenaeus was thus boldly claiming that the OT dead were saved through the Law Covenant of Moses, in direct contradiction to Paul's and Christ's teaching about the significance of the destruction of the Temple and OT priesthood and sacrifices. Hymenaeus was teaching salvation by the works of the Mosaic Law. He thus was "bewitched," "under a curse," had "fallen from grace," and was in essence saying "Christ died needlessly."

 

[jgr]

There will be NO GREAT FALLING AWAY. Those words were created by the KJV translators and were and are a very poor translation that simply does not fit the context of the passage. It is a great or significant DEPARTING.

The original Greek word is apostasia, the sole meaning of which is apostasy or falling away. There is not a single English translation of the Bible, old or new, which translates the word as anything else. They all got it right.

 

[UN161]

They wouldn't have been. Clearly they had a very different understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord that they were warned was "soon coming, near and about to take place".

What is interesting is Paul never corrects their notion. He could've simply walked them to the nearest graveyard and said "do you see any graves open?"

But he didn't.

Hymenaeus had a timing error, according to scripture, and that the timing error was hugely important. To answer why, I'd like to identify the damning, faith-destroying error Paul continuously addresses throughout his epistles:

Galatians 3:1-2,10
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?...as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse

Galatians 2:16,21
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified....I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly

Galatians 5:2-4
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


I could post a dozen other Pauline verses that repeat what was damming everyone in that generation, but those suffice. Belief that justification/salvation came from the Law Covenant of Moses was the damning, faith-destroying error Paul continuously had to address in his epistles.

It was for this same error that Hymenaeus was also being condemned by Paul, for Hymenaeus claimed that the release of the OT dead from Hades occurred within the Mosaic Covenant era. Hymenaeus was thus boldly claiming that the OT dead were saved through the Law Covenant of Moses, in direct contradiction to Paul's and Christ's teaching about the significance of the destruction of the Temple and OT priesthood and sacrifices. Hymenaeus was teaching salvation by the works of the Mosaic Law. He thus was "bewitched," "under a curse," had "fallen from grace," and was in essence saying "Christ died needlessly."

That was pretty clear actually, Thank you.

 

[UN161]

after reading a lot of your posts, I think you present the eschatology well. The Protestant/catholic thing well thats another topic, I don't think I would like to get into with you. Seems argumentative to say to say the least sometimes. But I would have a grown up discussion about it sometime LOL

 

[Dave Watchman]

Hello everyone, this is my first post in here.

Hello UN161, congratulations on your interesting first post.

My question (probably one of many) is In 2nd Thessalonians, Paul writes to them about there confusion of the day of the Lord and that it already happened or "is at hand"

For Pre Trib, the question is, Why would the Thessalonians write to Paul if they thought there was a "rapture and that Paul and them should of just disappeared? (a view I think is the most farfetched of all the views)

For the rest, If the Day of the Lord is the "LAST DAY" and the End of the world,
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

I was a bit surprised at all the different understandings of the falling away. At our current stage of understanding, with all of the various Bible translations at our fingertips, I wish there were more of a consensus or agreement of what was truth.

So if not many of us can be on the same page right now, how could the Thessalonians know what was going on? I wouldn't be worried too much about what they understood at that time. It's kind of like asking Henry Ford how to clear the PO430 emission code on my Dodge Ram.

How could the Thessalonians think the Day of the Lord happened when the world wasn't destroyed by fire? How could they think the world went on after the day of lord?

Paul was drawing from Daniel 8 when he was talking about a falling away. "When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue. This is the equivalent to the rebellion comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.

Paul was drawing from Matthew 23 when he was talking about the man of sin taking his seat in the Temple of god.

Jesus said in Matthew 23:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat"

"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"​

They have "seated themselves".

Compare with Paul's man of sin:

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God

"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,​

He will "seat himself".

Compare with Moses in Exodus 18
http://biblehub.com/exodus/18-13.htm

13The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening.

20Teach them his decrees and instructions, and show them the way they are to live and how they are to behave.​

Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over his job or his "seat", which was Moses' place of authority in the Temple of God.

Our end time Antichrist has thought to take over God's job by influencing the shift in morality and the trend in increased lawlessness. "Anti" can also mean "in place of".

God said: "Remember the Sabbath", "You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery" and "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination".

Man of Sin says: forget about the Sabbath, legalize inappropriate contentography, legalize abortion, legalize same sex marriage and have a sexual revolution.

When the Man of Sin seeks to change these specific times and these particular Laws, he by default, has magnified himself above all that is called God or is worshiped and has set himself up in God's "seat" of authority in God's Temple thereby claiming to BE God.

And for another thing, the Thessalonians didn't have the Revelation yet. Nether did Paul. And they probably didn't even have 2 Peter 3 yet. I did a Google on Thessalonians and 2 Peter 3 to get some idea of the dating. Wikipedia says: "Scholars who support its authenticity view it as having been written around 51-52 AD, shortly after the First Epistle.

Then on 2 Peter 3: "Because Peter was martyred around 68 A.D. by Nero and also because Peter references his approaching death in 2 Peter 1:14 ("since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me"). Many believe that it was written between 65-68 A.D.
Second Epistle of Peter - Wikipedia

So it's probable that the Thessalonians had no idea that the heavens were to pass away with a loud noise and the elements were to burn with fervent heat. And they certainly had no clue that this was to transpire after a future 1000 years were finished in Revelation 20. What amazes me is that there are so many right now, at this time when knowledge and information availability have been increased, who still have no apparent clue of the events right before us.

Im leaning towards partial preterism in my views, but I don't see how The bible can't see past ad 70 either and how The great tribulation (if in ad 70 says it will never be equaled when surely Muhammad was more of a false prophet then Rome), and how we are now in the "kingdom" If the power of Islam is not from satan then nothing ever was.

I'd say partial preterism is partially correct on some things, but like the Amils, they are an overall erroneous theology. None of the established belief systems have got it right. If I had to pick one, I think some hybrid composite version of historicism would be the most correct. It would show that, just by taking into consideration the 18 prophetic time periods mentioned in Daniel and Revelation, that we are about 2/3's of the way through Revelation's narrative.

As time moves forward, the Historicist position will eventually be 100% true.

I'll stay independent for now.

 

[jgr]

Hello UN161, congratulations on your interesting first post.



I was a bit surprised at all the different understandings of the falling away. At our current stage of understanding, with all of the various Bible translations at our fingertips, I wish there were more of a consensus or agreement of what was truth.

So if not many of us can be on the same page right now, how could the Thessalonians know what was going on? I wouldn't be worried too much about what they understood at that time. It's kind of like asking Henry Ford how to clear the PO430 emission code on my Dodge Ram.



Paul was drawing from Daniel 8 when he was talking about a falling away. "When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue. This is the equivalent to the rebellion comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.

Paul was drawing from Matthew 23 when he was talking about the man of sin taking his seat in the Temple of god.

Jesus said in Matthew 23:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat"

"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"​

They have "seated themselves".

Compare with Paul's man of sin:

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God

"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,​

He will "seat himself".

Compare with Moses in Exodus 18

13The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening.

20Teach them his decrees and instructions, and show them the way they are to live and how they are to behave.​

Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over his job or his "seat", which was Moses' place of authority in the Temple of God.

Our end time Antichrist has thought to take over God's job by influencing the shift in morality and the trend in increased lawlessness. "Anti" can also mean "in place of".

God said: "Remember the Sabbath", "You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery" and "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination".

Man of Sin says: forget about the Sabbath, legalize inappropriate contentography, legalize abortion, legalize same sex marriage and have a sexual revolution.

When the Man of Sin seeks to change these specific times and these particular Laws, he by default, has magnified himself above all that is called God or is worshiped and has set himself up in God's "seat" of authority in God's Temple thereby claiming to BE God.

And for another thing, the Thessalonians didn't have the Revelation yet. Nether did Paul. And they probably didn't even have 2 Peter 3 yet. I did a Google on Thessalonians and 2 Peter 3 to get some idea of the dating. Wikipedia says: "Scholars who support its authenticity view it as having been written around 51-52 AD, shortly after the First Epistle.

Then on 2 Peter 3: "Because Peter was martyred around 68 A.D. by Nero and also because Peter references his approaching death in 2 Peter 1:14 ("since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me"). Many believe that it was written between 65-68 A.D.
Second Epistle of Peter - Wikipedia

So it's probable that the Thessalonians had no idea that the heavens were to pass away with a loud noise and the elements were to burn with fervent heat. And they certainly had no clue that this was to transpire after a future 1000 years were finished in Revelation 20. What amazes me is that there are so many right now, at this time when knowledge and information availability have been increased, who still have no apparent clue of the events right before us.



I'd say partial preterism is partially correct on some things, but like the Amils, they are an overall erroneous theology. None of the established belief systems have got it right. If I had to pick one, I think some hybrid composite version of historicism would be the most correct. It would show that, just by taking into consideration the 18 prophetic time periods mentioned in Daniel and Revelation, that we are about 2/3's of the way through Revelation's narrative.

As time moves forward, the Historicist position will eventually be 100% true.

I'll stay independent for now.

Some brief historicist observations:

Compare with Paul's man of sin:

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God

"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,

Whenever Paul references the temple of God in his epistles, he is referring to the spiritual temple within each believer, which is collectively the Church. In the associated predictions in 2 Thess. 2, he is thus identifying someone who would claim and usurp spiritual authority within the Church.

With the benefit of historical prophetic hindsight coupled with their own observations and experiences, frequently as martyrs, the Reformers of the Protestant Reformation recognized Paul's prediction in the papacy, represented by each succeeding pope. Popes down through the centuries have effectively claimed divine authority, culminating with Pope Pius XI, in 1922, who outright asserted "I am God on the earth." A Latin papal title, VICARIVS FILII DEI (Vicar of the Son of God) is an essentially equivalent arrogation. Interestingly, the sum of its Roman numerals is 666.

The papacy represented an apostasy from the truth and the faith by and within the Church. This is consistent with what Paul predicted in 2 Thess. 2:3.

The Reformers also recognized in the papacy the fulfillment of prophecies of the little horn in Daniel 7, of antichrist in John's epistles, and of the beast in Revelation 13. One of the Reformation's foundational declarations was that the papacy was Antichrist.

The doctrine of a far distant futurized Antichrist did not appear until the 16th century papal counter-reformation, contrived to attempt to refute the Reformers' declarations. This futurism was quickly embraced as indispensable doctrine by dispensationalism as it began to fully emerge in the 19th century. That process continues to this day.

Until the Church recognizes and reclaims the historic prophetic faith of its fathers, it will continue in prophetic blindness. Thus we continue to diligently declare the historic prophetic truths, in anticipation of the eventual reemergence of the Church from its current condition; and to recognition once again of the faith and sacrifices of the saints of old, without whom the spiritual freedoms we enjoy today would simply not exist.

 

[Copperhead]

The Apostasia is literally "departure" or "separation". Without a context, it cannot be made to imply anything more than that. Kenneth Wuest expounded upon this extensively in his word studies along with many others. One has to go beyond simple Strong's word meanings and look at how a word is used in Greek literature. The only way this can be used as "falling away" is if there is a context of what one is falling away from. There is no context of this in 2 Thes 2:3. Only the straightforward use of apostasia. Anything else is injecting preconceptions on the text. So literally, that day cannot arrive until there is a "departure" or physical separation, plain and simple. Implying a departure from the faith, or "falling away" is adding one's idea of what the text is meaning, even if it is the translator doing so.

The word is also used in the text of Acts 21:21. Clearly, the meaning is departing or forsaking the teachings of Moses and the law because that is outlined in the verse. So in that instance, the combined use of apostasia along with Moses, which is the direct reference of what is being departed from makes Apostasia clearly mean a rejection or falling away type of idea. But without a target of what is being departed from, as in 2 Thes 2:3, one shouldn't take liberties on what is being said and impose their theological view, i.e. that a "falling away" from the faith must come first. The Greek text only says a departure must come first. Plain. Simple.