LDS How did the Mormon Jesus get his Exaltation?

[withwonderingawe]

Joseph's gun is on display at the Church History Museum in Salt Lake City, where anyone can see it. It has been there for years. It is well known that JS defended himsekf with pistol,
You can read the listings of accounts that state this
Joseph Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph fired a gun - FairMormon
FairMormon is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of LDS doctrine, belief and practice
It is a Mormon website that deals with answers to critics of their church.

Yes I know and I've been to Carthage several times. By the time the mob got through the door and Joseph was standing there he was in unarmed. There were 4 men in that room only two were under arrest. The mob shot through the door killing Hyrum and then they wonded John Taylor. They did not care who they killed. They were wild with hate and felt justified killing anyone in the room with Joseph. The jailers wife was nearly killed with a bullet going right over her head. She grabbed her little girls and ran out the back door, to hide in the cornfield. The mob came to kill, there was no talking. He wasnt trying to escape. It was a planned murder they would have killed if he didn't have a gun.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes I know and I've been to Carthage several times. By the time the mob got through the door and Joseph was standing there he was in unarmed. There were 4 men in that room only two were under arrest. The mob shot through the door killing Hyrum and then they wonded John Taylor. They did not care who they killed. They were wild with hate and felt justified killing anyone in the room with Joseph. The jailers wife was nearly killed with a bullet going right over her head. She grabbed her little girls and ran out the back door, to hide in the cornfield. The mob came to kill, there was no talking. He wasnt trying to escape. It was a planned murder they would have killed if he didn't have a gun.

• Yes---there is no denying it, and I have said, it was wrong what they did. They were going to kill him. But do not make it sound as though JS was a totally innocent bystander. No one deserves what these people did, he was under arrest and they had no right to take the law into their own hands. They should have let this play out in the courts. It was his desire for power, he wanted to be president. It was his lust for other women that led to his own congregation rising up against him over polygamy and his control. The press he destroyed had printed only one article and was run by Mormons against him and he then destroyed the press. He had no right to do that and it triggered an already bad situation. And no matter what--he died trying to defend himself (which he had a perfect right to do so) that however, does not classify him as being a martyr. No other Christian martyr had gone to his death trying to kill those coming against him. He did not call out to God for his help but uttered the Mason call for help.
• One interesting thing---JS was in jail, yet he had a gun. No prisoner is allowed a gun or any weapon. He knew they were going to come for him and planned on killing others to defend himself. He was used to using his power to do what he wanted.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I'm sitting here in bed recovering from some minor surgery so can't get to my main computer, I'm sorry my answer won't be complete.

Do you really think he thought he would be president? His run was only done because he felt their problems were being ignored. He was trying to get their message out, he never really thought he'd win. He was head of the Navuoo legion, so he gave himself this silly title, can't remember what it was but there is no such title. He knew it and everyone knew it. The point is he didn't take himself all the seriously. But today it's all taken sooo seriously and twisted into something it's not. He did have a good platform and if followed there wouldnt have been a Civil war.

He didn't have a lust for women. His plural marriages spanned a three year period of time while he was building the Navuoo Temple, it was not a life long endeavor like Teddy Kennedy. I believe there is an 5 year span of time between his first plural marriage and when he reintroduced it. That is not the actions of a lustful man. He never slept with young girls, there's documention on that. He never slept with other men's wives, there's documention on that too. He didn't father any children other than with Emma, there's DNA to prove that.

His own congregation did not rise up against him. A few men oppose him but that was an on going struggle which began with rejection of the law of consecration or having all things in common as in the New Testament. Plural marriage became their huge stumbling block yes, but they had their own delusion of grandure. The majority of the church members stayed loyal to Joseph and then to Brigham Young.

The destruction of the printing press was unwise, kind of dumb but legal. Well... they shouldn't have actual destroyed it but they had the legal right to deem it a public nuisance, we would call it hate speech today or inciting a riot or over throwing of the government. At that time freedom of the press only applied to the federal goverment, states and cities could shut down a paper. It wasn't until after the civil war and the 14th amendment that the Bill of Rights applied to the states. if they had gone to court it would have been a civil trial and the city would have had to pay for the cost of the press, it certainly wasn't treason or something to be killed over.

He did not take the gun into the jail with a plan to kill people. It was smuggled in by a friend who was worried about the men who were milling around the building. The jailer and family found Joseph and friends to be so nice they removed them from the jail and gave them their own bedroom on the top floor. In the middle of the night someone shot threw the window so they all ended up sleeping on the floor. Joseph asked John Tayler to sing the hymn A poor way fairing man of grief, which he did twice through.

If you look it up the word martyr it simply means anyone who suffers or is killed for a religious or political purpose, which fits Joseph. There is no 'and doesnt fight back" you are changing the defintion to fit your purpose. It fits his whole life, from the time he was 14 up until he was murdered. He was dragged out of his house and tarred and feathered, his babies died from exposure because of it. they tried to pore poison down his throat and broke his front tooth. He spent six months in a hole in the ground called liberty jail with 4 other men, and only a buckit to pee in. His wife and children were chased out of their home and left with nothing. His many friends were drive out of their homes, men killed and women raped. He was dragged over and over again to court, imprisoned many times. He had to go into hiding the last few months of his life and keep body guards around him all the time. His whole life was one of a martyr.

You can try with all your might to distroy him but you are only fulfilling prophecy, that his name would be had for good and ill throughout the world.

 

[mmksparbud]

he never really thought he'd win.

Smith wrote in his journal, "There is oratory enough in the church to carry me into the presidential chair on the first slide" and "When I look into the Eastern papers and see how popular I am, I am afraid I shall be president."[9][10]
Scholar Discusses Joseph Smith’s 1844 Presidential Election Campaign - Church News and Events
However, he did write this:
Smith remarked, "I would not have suffered my name to have been used by my friends on any wise as President of the United States, or candidate for that office, if I and my friends could have had the privilege of enjoying our religious and civil rights as American citizens, even those rights which the Constitution guarantees unto all her citizens alike."[12]

He was head of the Navuoo legion, so he gave himself this silly title, can't remember what it was but there is no such title. He knew it and everyone knew it.

Do you mean that silly title of Mayor??

On 1 February 1841, the city of Nauvoo held its initial municipal election. John C. Bennett had the distinction of being chosen the first mayor of the city. He had only been a member of the Church for a few months but was the one most responsible for steering the Nauvoo Charter through the legislature.
Joseph Smith served almost fifteen months on the city council before becoming mayor. ...
The four aldermen were William Marks, Samuel H. Smith, Daniel H. Wells, and Newel K. Whitney. The nine councilors were Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Charles C. Rich, John T. Barnett, Wilson Law, Don Carlos Smith, John P. Greene, and Vinson Knight.

By 1844, Nauvoo, with 12,000 residents, was the second most populous city in Illinois.[2] Mormon leaders requested that adherents vote in a bloc behind candidates endorsed by church leaders. As a result, the city's Mormon residents held the balance of power between the Democrats and Whigs in state elections.[3] Smith also commanded a quasi-public military force, the Nauvoo Legion, that with 2,500 men was almost one-third the size of the U.S. Army.[4]

Some articles say his military force had 5,000 men.
What is so silly about being a mayor and the head of a 2,500 (to 5,000) military force???
I would not even begin to think I could destroy any religious leader of any group. This is a discussion on Mormonism and I give my 2 cents. There is no need to call him the devil incarnate nor to set him up as some sort of demi-god either.

 

[Peter1000]

It is untrue and I already have.

No, you just reflected the challenge.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You said' Smith wrote in his journal, "There is oratory enough in the church to carry me into the presidential chair on the first slide" and "When I look into the Eastern papers and see how popular I am, I am afraid I shall be president."[9][10]
Scholar Discusses Joseph Smith’s 1844 Presidential Election Campaign - Church News and Events
However, he did write this:
Smith remarked, "I would not have suffered my name to have been used by my friends on any wise as President of the United States, or candidate for that office, if I and my friends could have had the privilege of enjoying our religious and civil rights as American citizens, even those rights which the Constitution guarantees unto all her citizens alike."[12]

This is from Wiki

Motivations, prospects, and effects[edit]
Motivations that have been cited for Smith's candidacy include wanting to give the Saints a candidate they could support in good conscience; avoiding a political party fiasco between the Whigs and Democrats in Illinois; publicizing the Mormon cause to help obtain redress for church members' lost property in Missouri; and bringing the tenets of the church and the political ideas of its prophet to the attention of the nation. ...

Scholars have debated what Smith thought his chances of winning were. At the same time that Smith was running for Presidency, he was also making plans to move the Mormons from Nauvoo to Texas or Oregon, (which wasn't even part of the United States at the time) for the safety of them and their property. Historian Richard Lyman Bushman argues that Smith started out as a protest candidate but then began to suspect that victory might be attainable.[8] Smith wrote in his journal, "There is oratory enough in the church to carry me into the presidential chair on the first slide" and "When I look into the Eastern papers and see how popular I am, I am afraid I shall be president."

Doesn't seem like he was really planning on it.


You asked; Do you mean that silly title of Mayor??

No Lieutenant General, what's that? The rank is used in some other countries but in the US it is not. It actually put him second in command.(see wik) He knew he wasn't a military man however after the Danite problems in Missouri he made sure he kept control over most situations.

D&C 121; 39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[withwonderingawe]

It's so easy to sit here 130 years later and pick apart someone's life . However you have to ask why, why go through all the way to martyrdom? When he's 14 he claims to have seen a vision of God the Father and Jesus. He tells enough people about it that his persecutions begin. At 17 he claims to have another one and there is book buried somewhere but he can't have it yet, his neighbors start following him every where. At 20 he meets his wife and his father in law hates him. He also claims now to have the plates. His family suffers persecution, people break into their home. It's so bad they have to move. At the same time there are people who believe his crazy story, they will follow him to their own death beds, the knight family, Porter Rockwell and others. Even the people breaking into their house believe him, they want the gold. Ya know why, because there is an empty stone box up on the hill side.

All of a sudden a man he had never met shows up at his door and announces he's there to help him, it's Oliver Cowdery. He too claims a vision. Other people offer their home so they can translate, the Whitmers. They translate this book in 63 days, its complicated with a story line which includs thousands of years of history and hundreds of different characters. Also some deep religious doctrines, Hebrew poetry and wars. Writing this was beyond his educational level yet he does it. Then he gets eleven grown men to claim the have seen the plates and an angel. The men each go to their death beds never denying their claim.

How does one pre plan all of this, how could at 14 year old start down this path and why? Why does his whole family believe him? I mean cousins that live miles away, why didn't one of them write a paper about their crazy cousin? The whole family and many many friends were willing give up everything, to be persecuted and suffer death.
Joseph produce three major religious books, he created a whole new line of doctrinal concepts, he lead about 15,000 people and built the beautiful city of Navuoo. The church he built is differant than any other, with prophets and apostels, it claims priesthood and builds temples. People who knew him loved him, he was a remarkable man.

You can't explain him away.

 

[mmksparbud]

It's so easy to sit here 130 years later and pick apart someone's life . However you have to ask why, why go through all the way to martyrdom? When he's 14 he claims to have seen a vision of God the Father and Jesus. He tells enough people about it that his persecutions begin. At 17 he claims to have another one and there is book buried somewhere but he can't have it yet, his neighbors start following him every where. At 20 he meets his wife and his father in law hates him. He also claims now to have the plates. His family suffers persecution, people break into their home. It's so bad they have to move. At the same time there are people who believe his crazy story, they will follow him to their own death beds, the knight family, Porter Rockwell and others. Even the people breaking into their house believe him, they want the gold. Ya know why, because there is an empty stone box up on the hill side.

All of a sudden a man he had never met shows up at his door and announces he's there to help him, it's Oliver Cowdery. He too claims a vision. Other people offer their home so they can translate, the Whitmers. They translate this book in 63 days, its complicated with a story line which includs thousands of years of history and hundreds of different characters. Also some deep religious doctrines, Hebrew poetry and wars. Writing this was beyond his educational level yet he does it. Then he gets eleven grown men to claim the have seen the plates and an angel. The men each go to their death beds never denying their claim.

How does one pre plan all of this, how could at 14 year old start down this path and why? Why does his whole family believe him? I mean cousins that live miles away, why didn't one of them write a paper about their crazy cousin? The whole family and many many friends were willing give up everything, to be persecuted and suffer death.
Joseph produce three major religious books, he created a whole new line of doctrinal concepts, he lead about 15,000 people and built the beautiful city of Navuoo. The church he built is differant than any other, with prophets and apostels, it claims priesthood and builds temples. People who knew him loved him, he was a remarkable man.

You can't explain him away.

We can't explain anyone away. We are discussing Mormonism. Which includes him. The question obviously boils down to is he a prophet of God or is he not? He has not met the criteria of having his predictions come true. Anyone can say they have visions. A kid claimed he went to heaven and everyone believed him---why would a kid lie? On down the road the kid admitted he lied. The young are not exempt from lying. They can look you right in the eye and lie through their teeth. Sometimes, esp. those 5 and under, believe what they say is true, they have a hard time telling the difference between truth and lies. They need to be taught. There is age guide.
Age-by-Age Guide to Lying
Lying and Children

At 14, of course, they definitely know what is true and what isn't. They are called young adults after 12 and in Jewish tradition at 13. The question comes down to --- do you believe what he says or not. I do not. Gold plates that disappear and can not be examined by scholars--nope--if you can't show me the gold plates, they do not exist. There is no reason for an angels to show you gold plates and then take them away. They were buried in the ground for 1000's of years and then the angels takes them away--no archeological discovery has every been taken away by an angel. The question then becomes, did he lie or was he deceived? God and His angels are not the only ones that can do miracles. Satan and his angels can also and that is why we must be careful, we are not to believe what everybody says. The bible is the guide by which we detect the truth. If it fits in with the scriptures or not. His do not, as they used to say--it is another book. We can not look into his heart about those visions as to whether or not he was deceived or he made it up. But we can test what he says by the scriptures. People go to their graves believing something is true that isn't. The problem is not--is he lying but is what he says the truth. I may say that it was very convenient for JS to get a message from God that now men were to take multiple wives when it was obvious there was a young lady in his house that he might have been attracted to. Did he lie? Was he deceived? Bottom line--does the message follow scripture--it does not. God simply does not go back and forth like that and there have been no other incidents of it. That was discussed some time back, there are none.
His books do not read as translations from an old language. They read as KJV attempts. It was the first thing I noticed. God speaks to His prophets in their own language, at the time He speaks to them. God has never given any prophet anything written in a language they do not understand. Daniel needed no stones in a hat to translate what the hand wrote on the wall in Babylon---God told him. The whole stones in a hat story does not even make sense. For these and many other reasons, I can not believe in what he says. It is your right to believe whatever you want.

 

[mmksparbud]

It doesn't matter how great anyone may appear to be. If they love the unlovable, pay their tithe, if everyone around them loves them, if that person is winsome, and likeable or gives to the poor and helps the sick. It doesn't matter if you're as selfless as Mother Theresa, what does matter is what you are saying the truth according to the bible. If it isn't--you can be an angel of light and call down fire from heaven and heal the sick, and be burned alive at the stake -- if what you teach does not pass the litmus test---we should not believe that what they say is from God.
And yes, you are very right in saying that the definition of a martyr is anyone who dies for their faith at the hands of others. Many Catholics absolutely died for their faith---does that make the Pope God on earth? Buddhists have been killed for their faith and did many good things---is what they teach the truth according to what God has given us? Many Nazi's willingly died for their believes, loved their wives and children and the country loved them--does that make them right??
Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Children have been known to give startling details of previous lives, sometimes several of them. People say that is prove of reincarnation. Is that what the bible teaches? Are you going to believe this innocent child who couldn't possibly make up this stuff and have it proven to be accurate, or the bible? You are aware that Satan and his angels know all of history and knows what everyone has done from Adam and Eve down to us? Satan knows what Joe blow in 1114 did and with whom and can tell anyone else all about it.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

[withwonderingawe]

We can't explain anyone away. We are discussing Mormonism. Which includes him. The question obviously boils down to is he a prophet of God or is he not? He has not met the criteria of having his predictions come true. Anyone can say they have visions. A kid claimed he went to heaven and everyone believed him---why would a kid lie? On down the road the kid admitted he lied. The young are not exempt from lying. They can look you right in the eye and lie through their teeth. Sometimes, esp. those 5 and under, believe what they say is true, they have a hard time telling the difference between truth and lies. They need to be taught. There is age guide.
Age-by-Age Guide to Lying
Lying and Children

At 14, of course, they definitely know what is true and what isn't. They are called young adults after 12 and in Jewish tradition at 13. The question comes down to --- do you believe what he says or not. I do not. Gold plates that disappear and can not be examined by scholars--nope--if you can't show me the gold plates, they do not exist. There is no reason for an angels to show you gold plates and then take them away. They were buried in the ground for 1000's of years and then the angels takes them away--no archeological discovery has every been taken away by an angel. The question then becomes, did he lie or was he deceived? God and His angels are not the only ones that can do miracles. Satan and his angels can also and that is why we must be careful, we are not to believe what everybody says. The bible is the guide by which we detect the truth. If it fits in with the scriptures or not. His do not, as they used to say--it is another book. We can not look into his heart about those visions as to whether or not he was deceived or he made it up. But we can test what he says by the scriptures. People go to their graves believing something is true that isn't. The problem is not--is he lying but is what he says the truth. I may say that it was very convenient for JS to get a message from God that now men were to take multiple wives when it was obvious there was a young lady in his house that he might have been attracted to. Did he lie? Was he deceived? Bottom line--does the message follow scripture--it does not. God simply does not go back and forth like that and there have been no other incidents of it. That was discussed some time back, there are none.
His books do not read as translations from an old language. They read as KJV attempts. It was the first thing I noticed. God speaks to His prophets in their own language, at the time He speaks to them. God has never given any prophet anything written in a language they do not understand. Daniel needed no stones in a hat to translate what the hand wrote on the wall in Babylon---God told him. The whole stones in a hat story does not even make sense. For these and many other reasons, I can not believe in what he says. It is your right to believe whatever you want.[/QUOTE

It doesn't matter how great anyone may appear to be. If they love the unlovable, pay their tithe, if everyone around them loves them, if that person is winsome, and likeable or gives to the poor and helps the sick. It doesn't matter if you're as selfless as Mother Theresa, what does matter is what you are saying the truth according to the bible. If it isn't--you can be an angel of light and call down fire from heaven and heal the sick, and be burned alive at the stake -- if what you teach does not pass the litmus test---we should not believe that what they say is from God.
And yes, you are very right in saying that the definition of a martyr is anyone who dies for their faith at the hands of others. Many Catholics absolutely died for their faith---does that make the Pope God on earth? Buddhists have been killed for their faith and did many good things---is what they teach the truth according to what God has given us? Many Nazi's willingly died for their believes, loved their wives and children and the country loved them--does that make them right??
Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Children have been known to give startling details of previous lives, sometimes several of them. People say that is prove of reincarnation. Is that what the bible teaches? Are you going to believe this innocent child who couldn't possibly make up this stuff and have it proven to be accurate, or the bible? You are aware that Satan and his angels know all of history and knows what everyone has done from Adam and Eve down to us? Satan knows what Joe blow in 1114 did and with whom and can tell anyone else all about it.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Your set up for judging how a prophecy is full filled and when would disqualify most of the Old and New Testament prophets, even Jesus. It's been over two thousand years and he's not here!

Prophecies are built on 'if' if Isreal obeys God they can go into the promised land. The answer to a prophecy is also in the eye of the beholder, I see many prophecy concerning the "falling away" in the New Testament and to you they just aren't there. It all depends on one's agenda.

Let's look at D&C 111 which you quoted. You make it into something bigger than the Lord's intent.

Some little nitwit promised Joseph that if he would come to Salem mass, there would be a lot of money for him. The church was heavily in debt and so a group of them travel to Salem and of course there is no money. The guy who made the promise just disappears. So they pray and ask the Lord what to do and the Lord chastised them slightly, says I'm not displeased even though it was a dumb idea built on wishful thinking. Then he is told the real treasure which will come are the people which will join the church. He is to make acquaintance and the Lord will lead you to them and you will be guided what to say to them, hes not going to own the city but he will have the power to preach the gospel. About a hundred people were baptized while they were there, and many thousands since. Verses 4-6 are all part of the same concept, "..discover your secret parts (or shame)....concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them." A number of the people who joined while they were there were well off enough to help the church through this debt crises. Verses 7-10 are interesting in that they are told to remain there for awhile, rent a house which they did. He's told to inquiry after the more ancient inhabitants of the city, do your genealogy. Turns out many of Joseph's grand fathers had come to the U.S. and live in Salem.
Then he is told to be wise as a serpent, that idiom comes from Matt 10:16. And to be without sin, stop going after worldly treasure even if it is for the church, I'll take care of you in my own way and my own good time.

So you see to me, it's not really a full blown prophecy about some future event but what they were to do at the moment. The Lord helped them find the real treasure, people willing to listen to their gospel message. These people in turn blessed the church with their gold and silver. Prophecy fulfiled.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your set up for judging how a prophecy is full filled and when would disqualify most of the Old and New Testament prophets, even Jesus. It's been over two thousand years and he's not here

You are very wrong. The criteria for being a prophet was set up by God. Jesus never said--I will come beck on Dec 3, 1953. He never set a date. You very well know that and that argument is just foolish. Same for the OT and any NT prophecy.

Prophecies are built on 'if' if Isreal obeys God they can go into the promised land. The answer to a prophecy is also in the eye of the beholder, I see many prophecy concerning the "falling away" in the New Testament and to you they just aren't there. It all depends on one's agenda.

Yes--those prophecies that have an if, are conditional. And the conditions are stated. When someone says that on such a date something will happen, and there is no if--it is unconditional and must come true and if not, then it was not of God. And the conditions of the "if" must be met. That is if a prophecy is dependent on a certain number of people being there, then that is what it has to be, such as when Abraham asked God if He would destroy the city if there were 10 righteous people---there weren't. If there had been 9 and the city spared, it would have been a false prophecy. If it is supposed to be an entire city that has to do something, then that whole city has to do it--such as with Nineveh. Everybody repented, not just a few, but everybody.

As for this D & C 111, this is prophecy:

"4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours."

Then he is told the real treasure which will come are the people which will join the church.

This is D & C 111:
1 I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.

2 I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.

3 Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.

4 And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

5 Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.

6 Concern not yourselves about Zion, for I will deal mercifully with her.

7 Tarry in this place, and in the regions round about;

8 And the place where it is my will that you shtould tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you.

9 This place you may obtain by hire. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city;

10 For there are more treasures than one for you in this city.

11 Therefore, be ye as wise as serpents and yet without sin; and I will order all things for your good, as fast as ye are able to receive them. Amen.


The only thing that could even come close to your statement "Then he is told the real treasure which will come are the people which will join the church" is number 10---which does not say that at all.
And it was wealth "pertaining to gold and silver " that was promised, not people. There never was
any of that fulfilled.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You are very wrong. The criteria for being a prophet was set up by God. Jesus never said--I will come beck on Dec 3, 1953. He never set a date. You very well know that and that argument is just foolish. Same for the OT and any NT prophecy.



Yes--those prophecies that have an if, are conditional. And the conditions are stated. When someone says that on such a date something will happen, and there is no if--it is unconditional and must come true and if not, then it was not of God. And the conditions of the "if" must be met. That is if a prophecy is dependent on a certain number of people being there, then that is what it has to be, such as when Abraham asked God if He would destroy the city if there were 10 righteous people---there weren't. If there had been 9 and the city spared, it would have been a false prophecy. If it is supposed to be an entire city that has to do something, then that whole city has to do it--such as with Nineveh. Everybody repented, not just a few, but everybody.

As for this D & C 111, this is prophecy:

"4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours."



This is D & C 111:
1 I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.

2 I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.

3 Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.

4 And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

5 Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.

6 Concern not yourselves about Zion, for I will deal mercifully with her.

7 Tarry in this place, and in the regions round about;

8 And the place where it is my will that you shtould tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you.

9 This place you may obtain by hire. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city;

10 For there are more treasures than one for you in this city.

11 Therefore, be ye as wise as serpents and yet without sin; and I will order all things for your good, as fast as ye are able to receive them. Amen.


The only thing that could even come close to your statement "Then he is told the real treasure which will come are the people which will join the church" is number 10---which does not say that at all.
And it was wealth "pertaining to gold and silver " that was promised, not people. There never was
any of that fulfilled.

2000 years is a long wait

Verse 2 says the people are the real treasure. Compare it to Acts 18: 10 where Paul is told to stay in the city for a while, for I have much people in this city.

Gold and silver are idioms or wealth. However there wasnt much paper money floating around back then and people did have gold and silver coins. So if any of these new converts helped pay the debt with gold coins then there is the answer.

 

[mmksparbud]

2000 years is a long wait

Verse 2 says the people are the real treasure. Compare it to Acts 18: 10 where Paul is told to stay in the city for a while, for I have much people in this city.

Gold and silver are idioms or wealth. However there wasnt much paper money floating around back then and people did have gold and silver coins. So if any of these new converts helped pay the debt with gold coins then there is the answer.

Mot to God--
LOL---drink some more Kool-Aide.

 

[Ironhold]

Mot to God--
LOL---drink some more Kool-Aide.

Care to explain that last quip?

 

[Ironhold]

I'm sitting here in bed recovering from some minor surgery so can't get to my main computer,

Hope you're feeling better.

 

[mmksparbud]

Care to explain that last quip?

Fingers not cooperating. To God 2000 years is only about 2 days.
KoolAid---me being stupid. Jim Jones gave poisoned KoolAide.
I should have just said---again---it was "wealth pertaining to gold and silver." that was promised not people. If they paid in gold and silver is stretching this beyond what it says. It is the cities wealth here that is promised, which means the whole city, Not 1/8 of it, not 1/4 of it, not 1/2 of it, not even 3/4 of it, but the whole city. In fact, the whole city was promised, and JS was to have power over it.


Faithful and infamous Mormon historian Richard L. Bushman writes in Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (page 328), “Ebenezer Robinson, a printer in Nauvoo, remembered that a convert named Burgess had persuaded Church leaders that a large sum of money was hidden in the cellar of a Salem house. Perhaps Joseph [Smith] believed he could identify the site using his boyhood gifts as a treasure-seeker.”
The Mormon group was in Salem for two weeks. Sidney Rigdon gave lecture on “Christianity” at the local lyceum. They toured the East India Marine Society like regular tourists tended to do. (Rough Stone Rolling, 329) On August 19, Joseph Smith wrote to his wife that “we have found the house [that the treasure is in] since Bro. Burgess left us… the house is occupied, and it will require much care and patience to rent or buy it.” (Joseph Smith to Emma Smith, August 19, 1836, Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, 390, text in brackets added) Joseph Smith said he would wait until September, or months if necessary, but ironically, the Mormon party left for Kirtland empty-handed, and with no treasure.

It was not people that was promised but the treasure that JS himself said he was looking for and said he found the house where the treasure was---but no treasure. "4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it,"
so JS did not get the power over the city either.

 

[Rescued One]

We can't explain anyone away. We are discussing Mormonism. Which includes him. The question obviously boils down to is he a prophet of God or is he not? He has not met the criteria of having his predictions come true. Anyone can say they have visions. A kid claimed he went to heaven and everyone believed him---why would a kid lie? On down the road the kid admitted he lied. The young are not exempt from lying. They can look you right in the eye and lie through their teeth. Sometimes, esp. those 5 and under, believe what they say is true, they have a hard time telling the difference between truth and lies. They need to be taught. There is age guide.
Age-by-Age Guide to Lying
Lying and Children

At 14, of course, they definitely know what is true and what isn't. They are called young adults after 12 and in Jewish tradition at 13. The question comes down to --- do you believe what he says or not. I do not. Gold plates that disappear and can not be examined by scholars--nope--if you can't show me the gold plates, they do not exist. There is no reason for an angels to show you gold plates and then take them away. They were buried in the ground for 1000's of years and then the angels takes them away--no archeological discovery has every been taken away by an angel. The question then becomes, did he lie or was he deceived? God and His angels are not the only ones that can do miracles. Satan and his angels can also and that is why we must be careful, we are not to believe what everybody says. The bible is the guide by which we detect the truth. If it fits in with the scriptures or not. His do not, as they used to say--it is another book. We can not look into his heart about those visions as to whether or not he was deceived or he made it up. But we can test what he says by the scriptures. People go to their graves believing something is true that isn't. The problem is not--is he lying but is what he says the truth. I may say that it was very convenient for JS to get a message from God that now men were to take multiple wives when it was obvious there was a young lady in his house that he might have been attracted to. Did he lie? Was he deceived? Bottom line--does the message follow scripture--it does not. God simply does not go back and forth like that and there have been no other incidents of it. That was discussed some time back, there are none.
His books do not read as translations from an old language. They read as KJV attempts. It was the first thing I noticed. God speaks to His prophets in their own language, at the time He speaks to them. God has never given any prophet anything written in a language they do not understand. Daniel needed no stones in a hat to translate what the hand wrote on the wall in Babylon---God told him. The whole stones in a hat story does not even make sense. For these and many other reasons, I can not believe in what he says. It is your right to believe whatever you want.

"Bottom line--does the message follow scripture--it does not."

I bolded that because it is extremely important.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Rescued One]

How did the Mormon Jesus get his exaltation?

"The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:33)
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, p. 9-10

 

[Peter1000]

How did the Mormon Jesus get his exaltation?

"The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:33)
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, p. 9-10

Is this true or not true?

Hebrews 2:10King James Version (KJV)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Luke 13:31-32King James Version (KJV)
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

If Jesus were fully God, he would have been fully perfected. He was not fully perfected by his own words.

 

[Rescued One]

“As far as man is concerned, all things center in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state. As such he became, under the Father, the Creator of this earth and of worlds without number; and he was then chosen to work out the infinite and eternal atonement, to come to this particular earth as the literal Son of the Father, and to put the whole plan of redemption, salvation, and exaltation in operation."(McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 129.)
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, p. 10
Chapter 4: Jesus Christ, the Son of God