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Featured LDS How did the Mormon father god who doesn't even exist impregnate

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Oct 31, 2020.

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  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    IOW, make his (also non-existant) only begotten son?

    Jesus was the only person to be born of a mortal mother, Mary, and an immortal father, God the Father. That is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten Son of God.

    From His Father, He inherited divine powers (see John 10:17–18). From His mother, He inherited mortality and became subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death.

    Because Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father, He was able to lay down His life and take it up again. The scriptures teach that “through the atonement of Christ,” we “obtain a resurrection” (Jacob 4:11). We also learn that all “might be raised in immortality unto eternal life” if we “would believe” (D&C 29:43).

    As we come to understand more fully what it means for Jesus to be the Only Begotten Son of the Father, our faith in Christ will increase. Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said, “Faith in Jesus Christ is the conviction and assurance of (1) His status as the Only Begotten Son of God, (2) His infinite Atonement, and (3) His literal Resurrection.”2 Modern prophets have testified: “[Jesus Christ] was … the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.”3
    The Divine Mission of Jesus Christ: The Only Begotten Son.

    In the flesh?

    mom-plus-dad-equals-you_FHE manual 1972.png
    Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, p. 126

    Jesus had a mother on earth. What was her name? (Mary.) But who was his real father? (Heavenly Father.) So you see, Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body.
    LDS (Mormon) Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, p. 126

    James Talmage wrote that Christ had a "unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal or resurrected and glorified Father.
    Articles of Faith, p. 473

    The word of revelation, given in this day, makes plain the meaning as to who was the one and only supremely glorified Man, whom Christ knew—God, the Eternal Father, the Father of the spirit of Jesus, and literally, the Father of His body. Therefore the title “The Son of Man” is an appellation of glory, authority and power among all sons of men. The Son of Man is the Only Begotten of the one and only supremely glorified Man at that time. God has since glorified His Son; but though the Son is glorified with the glory of the Father, you can’t change the fact that He is the Son of that Father, and that Father, the Eternal Father, not Jesus Christ, but the Father of Jesus Christ, the Father of His spirit and the Father of His body, was a Man, and has progressed, not by any favor but by the right of conquest over sin, and over unrighteousness, to His present position of priesthood [p.140]and power, of Godship and Godliness, as the Supreme Being whom we all profess to worship. The title “The Son of Man” therefore is in a great measure synonymous with “The Son of God”. We are all spirit sons and daughters of God; but Christ was and is The Son of God in a superlative and distinctive sense, God the Eternal Father being His Father both in spirit and in flesh.
    Essential James E. Talmage – 22 |

    Milton R. Hunter said, "He (God) created men, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven or on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be" (G.T.A., p. 99).
     
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  2. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Why do you say that God the Father doesn't exist?
     
  3. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Andrew, God the Father does exist and He is the Father of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did NOT have a father like you and I, He was born of a virgin. His mother was Mary. God the Father sent Him here to take upon Himself (Jesus) the sins of those who LOVE Him (Jesus) and do the will of the Father. I am willing to die for them.
     
  4. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    So Heavenly Father impregnated Mary... was Heavenly Mother looking on?
     
  5. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    So back to the Decker nonsense?
     
  6. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You are choosing to believe that God the Father had sex with Mary and this is the way she was impregnated.

    No. If that had happened she would not have been a virgin giving birth to Jesus. Since we know she was a virgin when she gave birth, we can illiminate sexual intercourse as he means of her pregnancy from whatever source.

    So tell me how you think Mary got pregnant?
     
  7. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    As far as the scriptures tell us there was only 3 people in the room at the time Mary was impregnated.
    1) the Holy Ghost
    2) the Power of the Highest (God the Father)
    3) Mary
    Luke 1:35 King James Version (KJV)
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    As you can see, Heavenly Mother was not mentioned, so we can assume she remained in Heaven at the time.

    Explain how the Power of the Highest was able to "overshadow" Mary? You do know what "overshadow" means in this context? Please explain this phenomenon?
     
  8. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I've always read the verse this way:

    The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee = The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee

    I think it's parallelism for emphasis. This makes only 2 persons in the room.

    The Holy Spirit is the power of God, He proceeds from the Father and through Him the Father operates.

    We're talking about a spiritual miracle here, not about impregnation!!

    The Son had already been begotten of the Father before all ages.
     
  9. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    I didn't. The Mormons have fictional gods.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  10. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    You believe more recent teachings of Mormonism, not what was taught in previous years. I was taught that Mary was considered a virgin because "heavenly father" had earned immortality and eternal life with a glorified physical body.

    President Joseph F. Smith taught: “I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions.... Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman” (Church News, 19 Sept. 1936, p. 2).
    Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 152-153

    "Jesus had a mother on earth. What was her name? (Mary.) But who was his real father? (Heavenly Father.) So you see, Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body."
    Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, p. 126
    Also:
    Crash Course Mormonism: Virgin Birth – Mormonism Research Ministry


    Milton R. Hunter said, "He (God) created men, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven or on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be" (G.T.A., p. 99).

    "Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed."
    Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 288

    IOW, those resurrected beings in the 2 lower kingdoms will have no gender and no ability to have children.

    "Eternal lives" is a term that refers to the right and power to beget children after the resurrection, granted to those who are exalted in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. This is an aspect of eternal progression. "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase" (D&C 131:1-4).

    This distinctive doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was taught by Joseph Smith and was especially articulated on May 16-17, 1843, at Ramus, Illinois, where he often visited and preached. Conversing on spiritual topics with a small party of friends, the Prophet Joseph Smith shed light on the concept of eternal increase: "Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory" (TPJS, pp. 300-301). Doctrine and Covenants, section 131,is largely concerned with this subject, and was first included in 1876.

    A husband and wife who are married in the new and everlasting covenant and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise under the proper priesthood authority are promised that they shall inherit "thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers," and their "glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever" (D&C 132:19). They are likened to gods, having no end. They share in the promises of eternal posterity made to Abraham and Sarah: "Both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars" (D&C 132:30)...
    Author: Ricks, Shirley S.
    Eternal Lives, Eternal Increase - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

    The Mormon heavenly father has the ability to have children because he earned a celestial body as did all previous gods and do all future gods.

    Those who comply with the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and endure to the end gain the right to become eternal parents. The Prophet Joseph Smith, as he spoke verses 1–4 to William Clayton, stated: “Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.” (History of the Church, 5:391; see also Smith, Teachings, pp. 300–301.)


    On 30 June 1916, the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, and Charles W. Penrose) declared: “So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.” (In Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, 5:34.)

    President Spencer W. Kimball taught that the right to eternal increase will depend directly on how individuals keep the marriage covenant in this life:

    “One young man said that he expected to reach exaltation in the celestial kingdom as one of the Lord’s messengers, without having to marry. He does not understand. No one who rejects the covenant of celestial marriage can reach exaltation in the eternal kingdom of God.
    Section 131, Keys to Exaltation
     
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  11. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    NONE of what you posted is about Mary being anything other than a virgin mother. God the Father is indeed the Father of Jesus Christ and He does have a body of flesh and bones. That being said the method of conception is NOT known:

    (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 11:18 - 20)

    18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
    19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
    20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.
    (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 17:14)

    14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    (Book of Mormon | Alma 7:10)

    10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

    Did you read the Book of Mormon?
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if you noticed, but the way you write it and therefore the way you say it, you have changed the bible text.

    Here is the KJV:The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.

    Here is your saying: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee = The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.

    I think it is not good to change the text of the Word of God. The second version may give a false notion, as I will try to show you in this case.

    It says that the Holy Ghost fell upon Mary. The Holy Ghost is a spirit and when he fell upon Mary, he filled her up with his personage, and light.

    Then it says: and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. To me the Highest over shadowed Mary, He did not fall upon her. Overshadowed means that the Highest was standing in between the light source and Mary, producing a shadow on Mary.

    So the Holy Ghost (1Person) fell upon Mary, AND the power of the Highest 2nd Person) overshadowed Mary.

    This scripture also proves that the power of the Highest (God) has a body of some mass in order to create a shadow on Mary. We believe it is a body of flesh and bone and spirit, (a resurrected indestructible, perfect body of flesh and bone and spirit - light years different than man, but nonetheless flesh and bone). A spirit would not cast the shadow.

    So we believe there were 3 in the room. I hope that makes sense. Tell me what you think.

    We are actually talking a miraculous conception/impregnation. It is only through the natural course of child bearing that Jesus came into the world, as a fetus, as a baby in arms.

    [/QUOTE]

    The event was spoken of from before all ages, but the event took place like the scripture says in that time. Jesus was begotten of the Father, the power of the Highest. (but not by sexual intercourse, for she was a virgin at the birth, but by some other power).

    Interesting story.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, you misunderstood. At the age of 10-16 when you were in the church, many young men and women misundertand.

    Mary was a virgin, because she did not have sexual intercourse with anyone to get pregnant. It was the Holy Ghost, and the power of the Highest and an miraculous conception that Mary became pregnant. A fetus grew, and Jesus was born as a small infant in arms and grew from there. But Mary remained a virgin through the birth of Jesus.

    Not because Heavenly Father had earned immortality and eternal life with a glorified physical body. How does the Father earning a body anyway equate to Mary being a virgin?
     
  14. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    I wasn't a Mormon at those ages. You don't know what people those ages believed. You claim that your leaders didn't teach what they taught. I didn't quoye any kids. I quoted LDS leaders. And I know what I was told by a temple Mormon who believed what those leaders said.

    Mormonism changes with the wind. You disagree with multiple generations of LDS.

    How does anyone believe your leaders are inspired? How do think you'll have spirit children in the next life? Will you still be male? Will your wife be female and become pregnant? Will her children be yours?


    QUOTE:
    In both of these kingdoms [i.e., the terrestrial and telestial] there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase. Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the “continuation of the seeds forever.” They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain “separately and singly” forever. Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be – neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.
    Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation. vol. 2, p. 287-288
     
  15. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    It seems that your view has merit. I went back and checked the Greek word "episkiazo," which is translated "overshadow." The same word is used in Christ's transfiguration to describe a bright cloud from which a voice came saying “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” (Mat 17:5; Mar 9:7; Luk 9:34-35).

    So, your interpretation that something similar took place at Jesus' conception is conceivable. Are there other appearances in the Bible of the Heavenly Father in the form of a cloud? I have to think more of this.

    But both of us still believe that the Son of God was begotten of Father before all ages. You specifically believe He is Yahweh in the OT, yes?.
     
  16. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, God the Father, this time concealed in a cloud, got between the sun and Peter, James, and John, and Jesus on the Mt. Transfiguration, and cast a shadow on them.

    Look at Acts 5:15 as Peter cast a shadow because he too got between the sun and the sick on the streets and overshadowed them, or he cast a shadow on them.

    I believe that all men's spirits were begotten of God before all ages. Jesus was the first of these spirit children of God, but was the only one that was begotten in the flesh, when the Holy Ghost fell on Mary and the power of the Highest overshadowed her. And that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Luke 1:35 was describing the long awaited time of the event when the only begotten Son of God actually happened in the flesh. Jesus's mother was a mortal woman, Mary, his literal father was God the Father.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2020
  17. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    This is what you said:
    I was taught that Mary was considered a virgin because "heavenly father" had earned immortality and eternal life with a glorified physical body. (see post #10)

    And I ask you to try to make sense of this. How does Heavenly Father earning immortality and eternal life with a glorified phusical body, make Mary a virgin? It doesn't.

    I never in my 68 years in the church ever heard this. It makes no sense. So you must have misundertood, temple mormon or not.

    You are right, just like most churches, policies in the church change and Jesus give revelations on how to proceed.

    But the doctrine does not change with the wind. Show me one doctrine that has changed?
    ,
    Our leaders have not been told how this happens, only that it will if you end up in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

    My wife has these same concerns, and we have this discussion every once in a while. But we conclude each discussion on this by saying, we will be light years different when that time comes and we will understand all the things we will do, and it will be a glorious time for us, so let us not worry about what we cannot understand perfectly now, let us keep moving forward in the light of the Lord and all will be understood when the time comes.

    So I will tell you the same thing, do not doubt what you cannot know at this time. Work in the light of God until all things are known unto you from the Lord.
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    My post contained enough information. It is apparent that your leaders taught what they did. And just because you and your wife have different ideas than your leaders doesn't mean you are right and they are wrong. I'm not going to waste my time with lengthy posts to you. I've spent hours upon hours explaining Mormonism. It's as crazy as Trump speaking to Biden or vice versa.

    I don't doubt what I cannot know. I am not a Mormon because God doesn't want me to believe that stuff.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  19. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    I've never leard the phrase "before all ages" in Mormonism. Everyone existed as intelligences before we were born of heavenly parents. We had no beginning.


    Jesus, in Mormonism, was born of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. He thus had a spirit body.
    Mormons say that Jesus is the only begotten Son in the flesh. All other humans were begotten as spirit children to Heavenly Father andH. Mother. We were siblings to Christ and Satan but our flesh came from two human parents. Satan never received flesh.

    Begotten

    To be born. To beget is to give birth, to procreate, or to call into being. In the scriptures, these words are often used to mean being born of God. Although Jesus Christ is the only child begotten of the Father in mortality, all people may be spiritually begotten of Christ[this is dofferent than our premortal existence] by accepting Him, obeying His commandments, and becoming new persons through the power of the Holy Ghost.

    ...

    • Christ has spiritually begotten his people, Mosiah 5:7.
    • Those who are begotten through the Lord[Jesus} are the Church of the Firstborn, D&C 93:22.
      Begotten
    Display the following statement by Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and ask a student to read it aloud:

    “That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; … In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman” (Jesus the Christ, 3rd ed. [1916], 81)
    Lesson 7: Jesus Christ—God’s Only Begotten Son in the Flesh
     
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  20. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying this is wrong, that Jesus was not begotten (born) of Mary? Jesus was indeed born of Mary, but Joseph was NOT His father. He is the Son of God the Father.
     
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