How dark were the Dark Ages?

[Landon Caeli]

I was in a discussion on another forum and I was explaining how the Dark Ages were comparable to the Stone Age, where Europe lost all knowledge from Classical Civilization. I was explaining how all the great ancient libraries were ransacked, and the books stolen, and how people went from great stone cathedrals with plumbing and running water, to mud and grass huts and clay pottery making, and instead of trials and judges, they would employ "trial by ordeal" where they were actually dumb enough to throw an accused person into say a pit of hot coals to determine if he was guilty... If one was able to escape, then that meant the accused person was innocent, and if he died, that meant he was guilty... Now that's 'cave-man' dumb.

Trial by ordeal - Wikipedia

...But there were a few people, who I consider historical revisionists, who were claiming that the Dark Ages actually weren't "so dark".

What do you think? Were they dark? Or not so dark?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I was in a discussion on another forum and I was explaining how the Dark Ages were comparable to the Stone Age, where Europe lost all knowledge from Classical Civilization. I was explaining how all the great ancient libraries were ransacked, and the books stolen, and how people went from great stone cathedrals with plumbing and running water, to mud and grass huts and clay pottery making, and instead of trials and judges, they would employ "trial by ordeal" where they were actually dumb enough to throw an accused person into say a pit of hot coals to determine if he was guilty... If one was able to escape, then that meant the accused person was innocent, and if he died, that meant he was guilty... Now that's 'cave-man' dumb.

Trial by ordeal - Wikipedia

...But there were a few people, who I consider historical revisionists, who were claiming that the Dark Ages actually weren't "so dark".

What do you think? Were they dark? Or not so dark?

The dark ages were actually pretty short, confined mostly to the 700's, 800's, and 900's. But the popular mythology has them going from the fifth to fifteenth centuries. That's out of whack thinking. They began slowly after the fall of the Empire in the West and ended by 1000 AD.

By the way, flat earth believers might like to think that those in the dark ages also thought the earth was flat. But for the most part the science of the time even knew the circumference of the earth. There are way more flat earthers now than then.

 

[Tolworth John]

g how all the great ancient libraries were ransacked, and the books stolen, and how people went from great stone cathedrals with plumbing and running water, to mud and grass huts and clay pottery making, and instead of trials and judges, they would employ "trial by ordeal"

A rather over simplification. Some cathedrals were looted and some centers of learning was lost but not all.
The ordinary peasant has always lived in a wood, mud and straw hovel and never had running water.
Superstition governed most people outside of the centers of learning to a greater extent. In many ways it still does ( Fung Shi, crystals, tarot etc )

 

[Landon Caeli]

A rather over simplification. Some cathedrals were looted and some centers of learning was lost but not all.
The ordinary peasant has always lived in a wood, mud and straw hovel and never had running water.
Superstition governed most people outside of the centers of learning to a greater extent. In many ways it still does ( Fung Shi, crystals, tarot etc )

Actually, Most people in the cities of Ancient Rome lived in apartments called insulae.

Ancient Roman insulae:

The wealthy lived in single family homes called domus of various sizes depending on how rich they were.

...This is much different than the reduced living status of the Dark Ages, where smurf-like homes had straw roofs.

 

[Tolworth John]

Actually, Most people in the cities of Ancient Rome lived in apartments called insulae.

And as I said peasants lived in hovels in Roman times right up untill the 19 th February and still do in other parts of the world.

 

[Landon Caeli]

And as I said peasants lived in hovels in Roman times right up untill the 19 th February and still do in other parts of the world.

The poor and the slaves did, yes. But during the Dark Ages, almost everyone was reduced to that standard.

...Because there was no more education.
Ancient Rome Teachers, Advantages of Roman Education System

...There were no more public libraries.
Ancient Roman Libraries - Crystalinks

 

[lismore]

I was in a discussion on another forum and I was explaining how the Dark Ages were comparable to the Stone Age, where Europe lost all knowledge from Classical Civilization.

hello Landon. One of my favourite places is the Island of Iona, a Centre of Christianity since 563AD. It is a very spiritual place and a place where the past seems alive. You can google Iona or here is a quick link:

Iona Visitor Guide - Accommodation, Things To Do & More

The founder of Iona, St Columba died while creating an illuminated manscript of Psalm 34. The famous Irish manusript 'The Book of Kells' was produced on Iona. An interesting read is the near contemporary biography 'Life of Columba' by Abbot Adomnan. These works present a highly literate and cultured community.

Another area would be the music, Celtic Harp music from the 'Dark Ages' is sophisticated and beautiful.

I get the strong impression that the 'dark ages' are a modern construct by people with a strong bias, not a reflection of reality.

God Bless

 

[tampasteve]

In general the "dark ages" and the "renaissance" are modern constructs on events. In reality they were localized times that had mini-renaissances and differing modes of technology and lifestyle. Often the leaving of the Romans resulted in a conscious return to other modes of architecture and design, and linguistics - Britain being a prime example of the people desiring a return to wood for cultural reasons.

Further, they were really localized in parts of Western Europe as the Romans/Byzantines in Eastern Europe, the cultures of the middle east, Asia, etc. were thriving throughout these times. Even parts of Western Europe experienced renaissances such as the Carolingian renaissance during these "dark ages". Many historians are instead using the term "Middle ages" to better reflect the situation in Western Europe at the time.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I get the strong impression that the 'dark ages' are a modern construct by people with a strong bias, not a reflection of reality.

But the time period between 500 and 1000 have always been referred to as the Dark Ages, until the 20th century... I see that as revisionism, and the rewriting of history, in modern times to appeal to the sensibilities and feelings of Western and Northern Europeans, which I also am a descendant of.

...But I prefer the preservation of actual history. Regardless of feelings.

 

[lismore]

But the time period between 500 and 1000 have always been referred to as the Dark Ages, until the 2000's... I see that as revisionism, and the rewriting of history, in modern times to appeal to the sensibilities and feelings of Western and Northern Europeans, which I also am a descendant of.

Hello Landon. That could come from a very biased perspective, modern and also Roman-centric. The thinking that the Roman Empire was a bastion of knowledge and civilization and that when it collapsed it brought an immensity of darkness.

On the other hand Scotland was never part of the Roman Empire, the people here violently resisted the Legions, looking on the Empire as nothing more than systemic piracy, the Roman Empire was the dark age, when the Empire collapsed it was the dawning of a new day of light. The end of the beast.

One good book to refute the 'Dark Age' nonsense is 'Scotland the Ancient Kingdom' by prof Donald A MacKenzie (1933). If you can access it online.

There's a wealth of historical information about the period 500-1000 that many scholars just choose to ignore because it doesn't fit their world view.

Remember that the unspoken goal is to restore the unholy Roman Empire and in the last days it will happen.

God Bless

 

[Albion]

But the time period between 500 and 1000 have always been referred to as the Dark Ages, until the 20th century..

I don't think that's accurate. For one thing, if the Dark Ages were ushered in by the fall of Roman Civilization, it had to take awhile for that to develop. Therefore, AD500 is too early. 700 hundred would be more like it, and there is no doubt that the Dark Ages were on their way out after 1000, so it isn't nearly as long a period of time as commonly thought.

But I do mean "commonly thought," not what historians think and have thought about it. They have taken recently to denying that there was any true "Dark Ages" at all, although the early Medieval Period was a difficult one for Western Europe.

...But I prefer the preservation of actual history. Regardless of feelings.

Good.

 

[lismore]

An example of how modernist Historians distort the past could be in this. There are two monarchs of the British Isles who have been given the name 'The Great', both 'dark age' monarchs.

Alfred the Great and Gregory the Great or Giric in Gaelic.

Here's Gregory's wiki page:
Giric - Wikipedia

It's full of obvious distortions. When the Chronicle says Gregory conquered 'England and Ireland' it's referring to Lothian and Dalriada.

You have to delve into an older History Book to get concrete information on Gregory, indeed I only discovered of Gregory the Great's existence because by chance on a hillwalk I came across the impressive ruins of his fortress at Dundurn, which reminded me of Masada. God Bless

 

[Landon Caeli]

Hello Landon. That could come from a very biased perspective, modern and also Roman-centric. The thinking that the Roman Empire was a bastion of knowledge and civilization and that when it collapsed it brought an immensity of darkness.

On the other hand Scotland was never part of the Roman Empire, the people here violently resisted the Legions, looking on the Empire as nothing more than systemic piracy, the Roman Empire was the dark age, when the Empire collapsed it was the dawning of a new day of light. The end of the beast.

One good book to refute the 'Dark Age' nonsense is 'Scotland the Ancient Kingdom' by prof Donald A MacKenzie (1933). If you can access it online.

There's a wealth of historical information about the period 500-1000 that many scholars just choose to ignore because it doesn't fit their world view.

Remember that the goal is to restore the Roman Empire and in the last days it will happen.

God Bless

Are you suggesting that the end of Classical Antiquity brought about no real negative changes? And that the Migration Period, and all it's battles and the introduction of Trial by Ordeal was nothing less sophisticated than the elected jurors and judges and courtrooms of Classical predecessors?

...It could be that Scotland, in particular, didn't notice much change, but the whole of Europe did. And historians attempting to erase this, based in religious or ethnic biases, is not something we should ever endorse.

 

[Landon Caeli]

The Viking and Hun invaders never brought anything useful to society, such as what Classical civilization did.

 

[Soyeong]

I recommend this book and this review of it:

God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science

The Dark Age Myth: An Atheist Reviews "God's Philosophers"

 

[Tolworth John]

Because there was no more education.

Not entirely true, even in Roman times only those who could afford education got educate and after the collapse of the empire an education was available to those who could afford it and wanted it in monistries.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Not entirely true, even in Roman times only those who could afford education got educate and after the collapse of the empire an education was available to those who could afford it and wanted it in monistries.

According to the internet, there was only 1 school established in all of Europe during the 6th century... The King's School, Canterbury. Is this wrong?

Category:Educational institutions established in the 6th century - Wikipedia

 

[Vanellus]

Made in the "Dark" Age

 

[Junia]

hello Landon. One of my favourite places is the Island of Iona, a Centre of Christianity since 563AD. It is a very spiritual place and a place where the past seems alive. You can google Iona or here is a quick link:

Iona Visitor Guide - Accommodation, Things To Do & More

The founder of Iona, St Columba died while creating an illuminated manscript of Psalm 34. The famous Irish manusript 'The Book of Kells' was produced on Iona. An interesting read is the near contemporary biography 'Life of Columba' by Abbot Adomnan. These works present a highly literate and cultured community.

Another area would be the music, Celtic Harp music from the 'Dark Ages' is sophisticated and beautiful.

I get the strong impression that the 'dark ages' are a modern construct by people with a strong bias, not a reflection of reality.

God Bless

Haven't got to Iona yet but I love Lindisfarne

 

[lismore]

Haven't got to Iona yet but I love Lindisfarne

Hello! I've been to both, if you love Lindisfarne you'll also love Iona

EDIT: A lot of visitors go for a day trip to Iona while staying at Oban. But if you want the full experience staying on Iona is wonderful. God Bless