How connected is attitude towards women and inerrancy?

[Dave-W]

I was aware of that but my focus was on the Latin rite.

Of course. Latin Rite makes up probably 90% of the RCC.

My point was the precedent is already in place in the RCC to allow for married priests.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Of course. Latin Rite makes up probably 90% of the RCC.

My point was the precedent is already in place in the RCC to allow for married priests.

Priests were married from the beginning. I'm not sure why Rome instituted celibate clergy but they never dogmatized it at least.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Actually I've thought about it a bit more.

What I wanted to say is that perhaps it is true that it may be a problem for some people or in some parishes.

But the fact is that with the ethos present in Orthodoxy, which lauds several women as "equal to the Apostles" and which has checks and balances in place - not to mention just the ways we are taught to BE - it doesn't HAVE to be a problem. And I really think generally it's not.

I always heard women complaining about submission and authority and roles when I was a Protestant. Within Orthodoxy, I don't hear it.

But we are strongly aware of authority. The authority of Christ. I think men and women are both continually reminded of our humility before God, such that any grasping for authority over others (regardless of which sex/es are involved) is a pretty strong indicator of a problem to us.

I don't think it's so much that you have failed to make your point, as it is that - to be blunt - I don't believe you.

I mean, I believe you when you say that this is your experience, and that it is not a problem for you. I do not believe that it is not a problem at all. And from my point of view - as someone who might well have considered conversion to Orthodoxy were it not for what I see as its gender problems - it is a very large problem indeed.

Not that it's a matter of wrangling, I can believe that that's absent. And I am not arguing for wrangling! But absence of wrangling in itself is not proof of health.

 

[Dave-W]

Priests were married from the beginning. I'm not sure why Rome instituted celibate clergy but they never dogmatized it at least.

There seems to be a kind of idolatry concerning virginity in the RCC.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There seems to be a kind of idolatry concerning virginity in the RCC.

Maybe. I wouldn't know?

We have monasticism as a valid path for those who choose it. But it is no better or worse than being married. Just different.

 

[Paidiske]

Having been Orthodox, I can see both sides of what @Paidiske and @Anastasia are talking about. It comes down to the fact that to be Orthodox is to forgo alot of the assumptions about authority and power than an heir to western European Protestantism would take for granted.

I get so frustrated when people talk like this, as if women who want to be ordained, or people who push for women's ordination, are just grasping at power and control freaks out to dominate others.

That's not what it is. That's never been what it is. (I mean, there are some women who apply who are like that, but then, there are some men who apply who are like that, and generally the process weeds them out as unsuitable).

The power of the clergy is not the reason for seeking ordination. And I realise that that power might be informal or exercised in diffuse ways (a lot of mine is). But denying that power when it is real is dangerous.

Going out on a limb, I predict that the RCC will have a married male priesthood within a decade or two and female clergy within a century. Orthodoxy will take a bit longer.

For the RCC, women in the diaconate - maybe. For priests I would say it would take longer.

I always heard women complaining about submission and authority and roles when I was a Protestant. Within Orthodoxy, I don't hear it.

But we are strongly aware of authority. The authority of Christ. I think men and women are both continually reminded of our humility before God, such that any grasping for authority over others (regardless of which sex/es are involved) is a pretty strong indicator of a problem to us.

My impression is certainly that Orthodoxy doesn't have the problems that fundamentalism has, of treating women as doormats, who need to submit to abuse etc etc. If I gave that impression, it was totally not what I meant, and I'm sorry.

And I struggle with this because this is not, for me, about authority over others. It's about the ability to each use our gifts and live out our vocations to the full. It's about participatory decision making that truly listens to the voices of all and takes even the most vulnerable person into account. That's what I want the Church to make possible for all my sisters and brothers; and what I see the Church - in all its different institutional bodies and denominations, including my own - failing at in various ways. Clericalism is a big part of that, and thus my concern for the intersection of ordination and leadership.

 

[Paidiske]

Off on a tangent, this was one of the headlines in one of the newspapers in my city this morning:

Joy but some are cross after Melbourne girl wins male-dominated Blessing of the Waters

Interesting that some people seem to have a problem with allowing this woman to do this. (Not leadership, I'll grant you, except that she seems to be inspiring other young women not to accept barriers!)

 

[FireDragon76]

I get so frustrated when people talk like this, as if women who want to be ordained, or people who push for women's ordination, are just grasping at power and control freaks out to dominate others.

I'm pretty sure it's more complicated than that. I had a friend years ago that felt a genuine calling from God but she was turned down as an Anglican priest.

What I was driving at is there are huge cultural barriers that would make the discussion your are trying to have, difficult, if not impossible. Orthodoxy is not just another Christian denomination with some different externalities and rules, it's a different worldview with very different assumptions about many things.

The power of the clergy is not the reason for seeking ordination. And I realise that that power might be informal or exercised in diffuse ways (a lot of mine is). But denying that power when it is real is dangerous.

I had similar issues in the Orthodox church at times. In my experience Orthodox often have a relatively narrow moral horizon by mainline Protestant and Catholic standards. And some Orthodox theologians have constructed a caricature of western culture to justify a victimology and martyrology and it's poisoned the well.

 

[JackRT]

Off on a tangent, this was one of the headlines in one of the newspapers in my city this morning:

Joy but some are cross after Melbourne girl wins male-dominated Blessing of the Waters

Interesting that some people seem to have a problem with allowing this woman to do this. (Not leadership, I'll grant you, except that she seems to be inspiring other young women not to accept barriers!)

Thank you for the warm fuzzy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Off on a tangent, this was one of the headlines in one of the newspapers in my city this morning:

Joy but some are cross after Melbourne girl wins male-dominated Blessing of the Waters

Interesting that some people seem to have a problem with allowing this woman to do this. (Not leadership, I'll grant you, except that she seems to be inspiring other young women not to accept barriers!)

Hmmmm.

It's not male-only here. Girls participate all the time and have won the last two years (we haven't had this year's yet).

For whatever that's worth.

 

[hedrick]

They already do. Priests can (and do) marry in every Rite of the RCC except the Latin Rite.

There's also at least one female priest, Ludmila Javorová. No, I'm not talking about "womynpriests," but several women who appear to have been ordained by a Catholic bishop in an underground church.

 

[FireDragon76]

There's also at least one female priest, Ludmila Javorová. No, I'm not talking about "womynpriests," but several women who appear to have been ordained by a Catholic bishop in an underground church.

There's lots of stuff like that out there, especially among the episcopi vagantes. I used to go to that type of church years ago. They are like the liberal counterpart to the SSPX.

 

[Dave-W]

but several women who appear to have been ordained by a Catholic bishop in an underground church.

A break-away group that is not connected properly to Rome.

 

[hedrick]

A break-away group that is not connected properly to Rome.

No. That's why I cited her in specific. There are more recent cases where women claim to be Catholic priests but aren't actually part of the Catholic Church. This case was different. She was ordained (apparently) by an actual Catholic bishop. She was, and continues to be, a member of the mainstream Catholic Church.

I say apparently because she and others have spoken about the situation only in a fragmentary way.

 

[FireDragon76]

No. That's why I cited her in specific. There are more recent cases where women claim to be Catholic priests but aren't actually part of the Catholic Church. This case was different. She was ordained (apparently) by an actual Catholic bishop. She was, and continues to be, a member of the mainstream Catholic Church.

I say apparently because she and others have spoken about the situation only in a fragmentary way.

Those are just formal distinctions. In reality, I suspect many Roman Catholics would say the bishop may not be formally excommunicated, but he's committed an illicit act. In that sense, he's not that different from an episcopus vagans.

 

[Paidiske]

To do this is, for Romans, automatic excommunication, both for the ordinand and for the ordaining bishop. So the minute he laid on hands, they both were no longer Roman Catholic.

The best construction you could put on it is that they are a valid but illicit schismatic group, attempting to provide a prophetic witness to the future of the church, and hoping for eventual reunion. I'm not sure if that's even true, though, or if they're content to splinter off and be their own thing.

I have very mixed feelings about this kind of ordination and the outcome of it; what kind of ministry will this woman really have? And how healthy is such an underground group, really?

 

[FireDragon76]

From what I read, Ludmila eventually renounced her claims to being a priest and her bishop got into trouble.

 

[hedrick]

I have very mixed feelings about this kind of ordination and the outcome of it; what kind of ministry will this woman really have? And how healthy is such an underground group, really?

It was during a time of persecution. Her defense is that women were dying in prison without access to priests. Since the end of that period, she has acted like a normal Catholic layperson. No, she wasn't and isn't excommunicated, but I don't believe she has attempted to function as a priest. She did attempt to get the pope to acknowledge her. I don't believe she's renounced anything, at least in principle.

She has been very reticent to talk about it. It was decades before anyone said anything, and even now few details are known.

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, so a bit analogous to the ordination of Florence Li Tim-Oi; an ordination of a woman when there were no men available for the ministry?

It worked out okay for us, but I'm guessing Rome's not going to cope so well... has she been required to resign her orders? Or would they see that as validating them in the first place?

 

[Tallguy88]

Going out on a limb, I predict that the RCC will have a married male priesthood within a decade or two and female clergy within a century. Orthodoxy will take a bit longer.

The former, absolutely. The later, never. Not without a schism, at the least. Nothing unbiblical about a married priesthood, but conversely, a female priesthood is unbiblical and it goes against 2000 years of Sacred Tradition which cannot be changed since it comes from God. The Catholic and Orthodox churches won’t budge on that issue.