How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

[Matt5]

My biggest case for believing in pre-trib rapture is that the Bible seems to make clear we are not appointed for wrath, why would God want us going through such a time?

Why aren't Christians appointed for wrath? Mostly because they're just dead. They refused to take the mark.

Please take a look at the 3rd bowl below. God gives them blood to drink because they shed the blood of saints and prophets.

Revelation 16:4-7

Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood
4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying:

6 ...
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.

7 And I heard another from the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

 

[Bob_1000]

What you're saying directly contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:44. Paul was not talking about one's soul, he was talking about the body. He said it (our body) is sown a natural BODY, and it will be raised a spiritual BODY. In 1 Cor 15:45, Paul refers to a whole person (body, soul and spirit) as a living soul, but it is the BODY that will be raised, as 1 Cor 15:44 specifically says. And it will be raised "a spiritual BODY".

There's no contradiction. Paul is using SEEDS as an analogy to illustrate the resurrection. Seeds contain DNA, which are instructions on how to make the body.

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

The BARE GRAIN (seed) may produce wheat (Mongolian), or some other grain... barley (Negroid), oats(Caucasian). <<<< Illustrative purposes only, I don't know what each seed represents. The point is that seeds don't get planted in the plant, they get planted in the growing medium and then produce the plant.

You argue that "it" is the human body, a simple exchange of "it" with "the body" should show clearly that "it" IS NOT the human body.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The human body is sown in corruption; the human body is raised in incorruption:
What is the corruption the human body is sown in?

1Co 15:43 The human body is sown in dishonour; the human body is raised in glory: the human body is sown in weakness; the human body is raised in power:
What is the dishonor the human body is sown in?
What is the weakness the human body is sown in?

1Co 15:44 The human body is sown a natural body; the human body is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The whole point of this story is that God plants the seed in a weak, dishonorable, corrupt human body (our mothers womb) and that seed produces ANOTHER weak, dishonorable human body and that body has to die BEFORE before the soul can move into the spiritual body.

Also, Paul said that our bodies will be redeemed, so don't try to say otherwise.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Look at the definition of redemption, it doesn't mean restoration it means riddance of or deliverance from.

ἀπολύτρωσις
apolutrōsis
ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

 

[Berean Tim]

“We” in that verse refers to all Christians from Adam to present. Those Christians that died before Christ came went to Abraham’s bosom until Christ came and paid for their sins. Once he paid for their sins they were raised and ascended with Christ when he ascended. We that are alive and remain, including Paul will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

When it’s time for the believer to leave this world we are changed into our glorified bodies and taken straight to heaven to be with Jesus forever.

No, the "We" is referring to those alive at Jesus's return. Paul is saying some would not die (sleep), but all in Christ will be changed, glorified.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't think its a matter of exception but it's a matter of - does the verse mean that man can only die once or does it mean that man will die at least one time.

The verse specifically says once, so it is a matter of making exceptions whether you acknowledge that or not. If you're going to allow for the exception of people dying twice instead of once without that contradicting Hebrews 9:27, then why can't you allow for the exception of those who are alive when Christ returns not dying?

We have biblical examples of several people who died more than once so obviously death isn't limited to one time. That means that it is appointed to man to die at least one time.

There are no biblical examples of anyone bypassing death. Enoch died according to Hebrews and all we know about Elijah is that he was taken up to heaven. Was it the first, second or third heaven.... the bible doesn't say.

Jesus said "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man". Did Jesus lie... of course not. I'm sure Elijah went the same way as Enoch.

Regardless, those who are alive and remain when Jesus returns will not die, but will be immediately changed to have immortal, spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15:50-54).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There's no contradiction. Paul is using SEEDS as an analogy to illustrate the resurrection. Seeds contain DNA, which are instructions on how to make the body.

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

The BARE GRAIN (seed) may produce wheat (Mongolian), or some other grain... barley (Negroid), oats(Caucasian). <<<< Illustrative purposes only, I don't know what each seed represents. The point is that seeds don't get planted in the plant, they get planted in the growing medium and then produce the plant.

You argue that "it" is the human body, a simple exchange of "it" with "the body" should show clearly that "it" IS NOT the human body.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The human body is sown in corruption; the human body is raised in incorruption:
What is the corruption the human body is sown in?

1Co 15:43 The human body is sown in dishonour; the human body is raised in glory: the human body is sown in weakness; the human body is raised in power:
What is the dishonor the human body is sown in?
What is the weakness the human body is sown in?

1Co 15:44 The human body is sown a natural body; the human body is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The whole point of this story is that God plants the seed in a weak, dishonorable, corrupt human body (our mothers womb) and that seed produces ANOTHER weak, dishonorable human body and that body has to die BEFORE before the soul can move into the spiritual body.

You said he was talking about the soul and he's clearly talking about the body there. You are just denying the obvious here for some reason.

Look at the definition of redemption, it doesn't mean restoration it means riddance of or deliverance from.

ἀπολύτρωσις
apolutrōsis
ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

Will you go to any length to deny the obvious? You said our bodies won't be redeemed and I showed you a verse which clearly says otherwise (Romans 8:23) and you still try to deny it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul also pointed out the difference between corruptible/incorruptible and mortal/putting on immortality. Not the same thing. One is the physical body. The other is the spirit of light.

There is no difference. That is ridiculous. Paul indicates no such thing. I've shown you this before, but it's hard to get anything through to you. Tell me the difference between being incorruptible and immortal. It means the same thing and Paul absolutely was not differentiating between the two terms.

Definition of incorruptible: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

Definition of immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying

Can you see that these two terms mean the same thing? There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that the body becomes incorruptible at one event and then immortal at a later event. No, it will become incorruptible and immortal at the same event which is the return of Christ at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul is using a metaphor. The body is not literally sown into the ground.

This dead body was redeemed on the Cross.

Where does scripture say that? Paul indicated that the redemption of our body is something that we are waiting for and not something that had already happened. Look at this:

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Why would Paul say we're waiting for the redemption of our body if it already happened at the cross? See how I'm backing up my view with scripture? Why do you never do that? Seems like it must be because you have none to back up your view.

The change is not the physical body changing. The change is from one body to a totally different body. That is what the metaphor is saying.

I didn't say otherwise. I'm not saying God will take our old bodies and change them. No, we will have different bodies, which Paul calls a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44) and they will be incorruptible/immortal. That is in contrast to what we have now, which Paul called a natural body, which is corruptible/mortal.

For example, if you plant corn, you do not go out and dig up the old seed in the ground and eat it. You eat the new seed that came out of a new plant from the old seed. Our bodies are not going to grow a new body. The metaphor was supposed to show you that the new body is totally different than the original, not that the original one some how got better.

I never said that our old bodies will grow a new body. How ridiculous. No, we will be changed to have a new, incorruptible/immortal spiritual body.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Where does scripture say that? Paul indicated that the redemption of our body is something that we are waiting for and not something that had already happened. Look at this:

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Why would Paul say we're waiting for the redemption of our body if it already happened at the cross? See how I'm backing up my view with scripture? Why do you never do that? Seems like it must be because you have none to back up your view.

I didn't say otherwise. I'm not saying God will take our old bodies and change them. No, we will have different bodies, which Paul calls a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44) and they will be incorruptible/immortal. That is in contrast to what we have now, which Paul called a natural body, which is corruptible/mortal.

I never said that our old bodies will grow a new body. How ridiculous. No, we will be changed to have a new, incorruptible/immortal spiritual body.

I think we were redeemed spiritually when the Lord rose again, and atonement was satisified, but we will not get actual physical bodies until the resurrection following the great tribulation but before the 1000 year reign.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You make it sound like Lazarus immediately died again even before the Cross. I doubt that is a wise assumption.

I said no such thing. I don't know when he died after he was resurrected.

There is no record of Lazarus dying again.

Not in scripture, but does that mean he couldn't have died just because it isn't recorded in scripture? Paul's death isn't recorded in scripture. Does that mean he didn't die? Come on.

We've been over this before. It's not possible that Lazarus didn't die again because Paul made it clear that no one except Christ has been raised unto immortality yet. He showed the order here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The order is clear. Christ Himself was the first to be resurrected unto immortality. Other verses like Acts 26:23, Rev 1:5 and Col 1:18 confirm this. Next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. Paul does not mention anyone else having been resurrected unto bodily immortality yet except for Jesus. That means Lazarus must have died and he will be resurrected along with all of the rest of the dead in Christ when Jesus returns at the last trumpet.

Once again, an assumption. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom for at least 4 days. Do you claim he tasted death and went back to Abraham's bosom until the Cross?

Sure. Where else would he have gone?

No one has tasted death and entered Abraham's bosom after the Cross.

No, the dead in Christ have gone to the third heaven/paradise since then.

How far into being literal do you take Hebrews 9:27? I guess no one can be raptured without dying either? Lazarus could have ascended along with all the other bodies when Jesus did that Sunday. No one described that ascension, because it had nothing to do with the NT church. It was about Christ the firstfruits.

Christ Himself is the firstfruits. That's what you're not getting. No one but Christ has yet been raised unto bodily immortality. We (all believers from all time) will all be changed to have incorruptible/immortal bodies at the SAME time in the future when Christ returns at the last trumpet. That is what you don't get because you don't understand what passages like 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 teach.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I think we were redeemed spiritually when the Lord rose again, and atonement was satisified, but we will not get actual physical bodies until the resurrection following the great tribulation but before the 1000 year reign.

I was only talking about the redemption of our bodies. That has clearly not yet occurred.

 

[Douggg]

Look at the definition of redemption, it doesn't mean restoration it means riddance of or deliverance from.

ἀπολύτρωσις
apolutrōsis
ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

riddance from the wages of sin.

Jesus's body after the resurrection was different than before.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

flesh and bones, not flesh and blood.

From that, it appears that the resurrected redeemed bodies of Christians will have life not from blood pumping through their system, but from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bob_1000]

Bob_1000 said: ↑
“We” in that verse refers to all Christians from Adam to present. Those Christians that died before Christ came went to Abraham’s bosom until Christ came and paid for their sins. Once he paid for their sins they were raised and ascended with Christ when he ascended. We that are alive and remain, including Paul will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

When it’s time for the believer to leave this world we are changed into our glorified bodies and taken straight to heaven to be with Jesus forever.

That does not happen upon death. Paul taught that the change into our glorified bodies will not happen until the last trumpet sounds (1 Cor 15:50-54) which will be at Christ's second coming because that is when the dead in Christ will be raised (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17).

According to 2 Corinthians 5 we get our new body when this earthly temporary house is dissolved.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

I don't know how that could mean anything other than the death of the body.

There's a lot of vagueness in 1 Cor 15:50-54 specifically these verses:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Is the trumpet a literal trumpet, I don't think it is, I think it's the New Testament for several different reason. And what gets changed? Is it our bodies? Is it the birth on the new man? Is it the Holy Spirit living within us?

Jesus said that he that believes in him will never die, he also says we have eternal life... that seems like we are immortal at the time of salvation.

2 Corinthians 5 is much more direct and to the point as to when we get our new bodies.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I think 1 Corinthians 15:52-43 alludes to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

When the trumpet sounds, the dead (in Christ) will happen first, then those of us who have been redeemed and are still alive at the time of the trumpet will be spared from the agony of the great tribulation at minimum (mid trip/prewrath rapture) or all of tribulation (pre-trib rapture) possibly, and so when this trumpet sounds, those of us who remain are changed to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him until the end of tribulation, most likely in Spiritual form, but I am not certain. I live indoors 99% of the time, and I don't think I'll have to deal with flying up through the subfloor, through my roof and up to 10 miles high or wherever we meet the Lord. We will not taste death and will be immortal at that point, but it is not clear to me at the point of where we are in our study of Revelation and related prophecy if that means while we are up there for 3.5 to 7 years, if we will be in new bodies or in spirit form awaiting the final resurrection when the Lord comes back to earth post-trib to establish His 1000 year reign.

 

[Bob_1000]

Jesus talked about an entire generation that wouldn't pass away, because they'd see the end of the age fulfilled, and Paul talked about how we wouldn't all sleep (physical death) in 1 Corinthians 15, and in 1 Thessalonians 4 there would be people who are alive at Jesus' return who are caught up to Him, Paul never says that they're killed THEN resurrected and caught up to Him. Just that they're caught up. Elijah and Enoch also never died.

Hebrews 9:27 says it's appointed for men, it doesn't say ALL though, it's not an exhaustive statement. There have been exceptions in the past, and there will be an entire generation in the future.

In Revelation 14, Jesus is on the clouds and 2 harvests are done. The first harvest is done by Jesus, that reaping of the earth is not put through the wrath of God.
The second harvest is done by an angel, and they're specifically said to be the clusters of the vine of the earth, earth dwellers, unsaved people... these are put through the winepress of God's wrath.

The first harvest, is the rapture.

You brought up a lot in that response but I think the most important part is that you said Elijah and Enoch never died but the bible plainly tells us that they did die. I can't easily prove from the bible that Elijah died but I can prove that Enoch died.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

People seem to stop reading here where it says Enoch was translated that he should not SEE death because that supports the rapture doctrine. It never says that Enoch didn't die, it only says that Enoch didn't see the death of his body. If you keep reading that chapter you will see that Enoch and all the rest of the people in that did die.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[Bob_1000]

No, the "We" is referring to those alive at Jesus's return. Paul is saying some would not die (sleep), but all in Christ will be changed, glorified.

I can see how you would see it that way coming from the perspective of the resurrection being a future resurrection of dead earthly bodies rather than a past and ongoing resurrection of the soul.

I come from the perspective that the dead in Christ were the Old Testament believers that were raised with Christ at his resurrection. I see "we" as the entire church, both the Old Testament church as well as the New Testament Church.

 

[Bob_1000]

The verse specifically says once, so it is a matter of making exceptions whether you acknowledge that or not. If you're going to allow for the exception of people dying twice instead of once without that contradicting Hebrews 9:27, then why can't you allow for the exception of those who are alive when Christ returns not dying?

Regardless, those who are alive and remain when Jesus returns will not die, but will be immediately changed to have immortal, spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15:50-54).

One day we will know for sure. Good conversation, I appreciate it!

 

[Bob_1000]

You said he was talking about the soul and he's clearly talking about the body there. You are just denying the obvious here for some reason.

Will you go to any length to deny the obvious? You said our bodies won't be redeemed and I showed you a verse which clearly says otherwise (Romans 8:23) and you still try to deny it.

I wasn't sure what the redemption of the body meant so I looked it up in Strong's to see what redemption meant and I posted Strong's definition.

As far as the first part of your response, what do you think is the corruption, dishonor and weakness that "the body" is sown in?

 

[Bob_1000]

riddance from the wages of sin.

Jesus's body after the resurrection was different than before.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

flesh and bones, not flesh and blood.

From that, it appears that the resurrected redeemed bodies of Christians will have life not from blood pumping through their system, but from the Holy Spirit.

I can't wait to get into that body and leave this place behind!

 

[Bob_1000]

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I think 1 Corinthians 15:52-43 alludes to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

When the trumpet sounds, the dead (in Christ) will happen first, then those of us who have been redeemed and are still alive at the time of the trumpet will be spared from the agony of the great tribulation at minimum (mid trip/prewrath rapture) or all of tribulation (pre-trib rapture) possibly, and so when this trumpet sounds, those of us who remain are changed to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him until the end of tribulation, most likely in Spiritual form, but I am not certain. I live indoors 99% of the time, and I don't think I'll have to deal with flying up through the subfloor, through my roof and up to 10 miles high or wherever we meet the Lord. We will not taste death and will be immortal at that point, but it is not clear to me at the point of where we are in our study of Revelation and related prophecy if that means while we are up there for 3.5 to 7 years, if we will be in new bodies or in spirit form awaiting the final resurrection when the Lord comes back to earth post-trib to establish His 1000 year reign.

I used to believe exactly the same way until I discovered that the resurrection happened at the resurrection of Jesus and a several other things like that.

 

[Jamdoc]

I said no such thing. I don't know when he died after he was resurrected.

Not in scripture, but does that mean he couldn't have died just because it isn't recorded in scripture? Paul's death isn't recorded in scripture. Does that mean he didn't die? Come on.

We've been over this before. It's not possible that Lazarus didn't die again because Paul made it clear that no one except Christ has been raised unto immortality yet. He showed the order here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The order is clear. Christ Himself was the first to be resurrected unto immortality. Other verses like Acts 26:23, Rev 1:5 and Col 1:18 confirm this. Next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. Paul does not mention anyone else having been resurrected unto bodily immortality yet except for Jesus. That means Lazarus must have died and he will be resurrected along with all of the rest of the dead in Christ when Jesus returns at the last trumpet.

Sure. Where else would he have gone?

No, the dead in Christ have gone to the third heaven/paradise since then.

Christ Himself is the firstfruits. That's what you're not getting. No one but Christ has yet been raised unto bodily immortality. We (all believers from all time) will all be changed to have incorruptible/immortal bodies at the SAME time in the future when Christ returns at the last trumpet. That is what you don't get because you don't understand what passages like 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 teach.

Lazarus and the other OT saints that were resurrected in the first century may have been raptured instead of dying a second time.