How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

Which belief are you the most confident on?

  • Pre-trib rapture

    Votes: 5 15.2%
  • Pre-wrath rapture

    Votes: 5 15.2%
  • Mid-trib rapture

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • Post-trib rapture

    Votes: 10 30.3%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 11 33.3%

  • Total voters
    33

Bob_1000

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We have eternal life right now, because our souls have been redeemed. Our bodies though have yet to be redeemed.

The rapture only happens once because the great tribulation only happens once. The purpose of the rapture is to escape the great tribulation. I think recognizing that reason is what you are missing about the rapture, Bob.
Our bodies will never be redeemed, that's not what gets raised at the resurrection. The "it" in the following verses is our soul.... The first man Adam was made a LIVING SOUL and IT was placed in an earthly body.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I'm not being cantankerous lol, I'm just showing the things I've learned from my bible studies. Remember it is the glory of God to CONCEAL a thing and the honor of kings to search it out.
 
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Bob_1000

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We have not tasted death since the Cross. The soul goes immediately from this corruptible body to a permanent incorruptible body.

That was the point in showing that Jesus was the Resurrection and Life when He called Lazarus out of the grave. Jesus on the Cross called all those in Abraham's bosom out of the grave. Each soul of those whose physical bodies stopped functioning, were called out of this dead body, the only grave left for those in Christ.

I am not talking about the old man. That is only symbolism of the new birth, that of the Holy Spirit into the family of God. The act of resurrection is now ongoing, since the Cross. No soul waits in death in Abraham's bosom any more. This ongoing phenomenon will end at the Second Coming. Any soul still in Adam's corruptible body will still immediately enter a permanent incorruptible body. That is the part of being changed, from one type of "clothing" to another. The soul sheds one body for a better body. The old man is symbolic of our nature. Our nature is dealt with on a daily basis.


I tend to see those alive on earth as the "dead in Christ". Those in Paradise are the ones who are alive in Christ, and with the Lord. The majority are now in heaven.

The last day resurrection in context and thought process, refers only to the OT. That last day resurrection was at the Cross, when all those in Abraham's bosom were allowed out of the grave and given permanent incorruptible bodies to enter Paradise.
I agree with most of that.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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How do you reconcile the "rapture" with Hebrews 9:27? In the rapture view it is appointed to some men to die but presumably a whole host of "raptured saints" that it's not appointed to them to die.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Sometimes, there are exceptions to things written in scripture which makes it unwise to interpret those things too literally as if there can't be exceptions to what is stated. This is one of them.

For example, Lazarus died twice. That verse, Hebrews 9:27, has been true for a vast majority of people from all-time with the exceptions of some people like Lazarus who were resurrected with their mortal bodies and ended up dying again. Another exception will be those who are alive at Christ's second coming.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Our bodies will never be redeemed, that's not what gets raised at the resurrection. The "it" in the following verses is our soul.... The first man Adam was made a LIVING SOUL and IT was placed in an earthly body.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I'm not being cantankerous lol, I'm just showing the things I've learned from my bible studies. Remember it is the glory of God to CONCEAL a thing and the honor of kings to search it out.
What you're saying directly contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:44. Paul was not talking about one's soul, he was talking about the body. He said it (our body) is sown a natural BODY, and it will be raised a spiritual BODY. In 1 Cor 15:45, Paul refers to a whole person (body, soul and spirit) as a living soul, but it is the BODY that will be raised, as 1 Cor 15:44 specifically says. And it will be raised "a spiritual BODY".

Also, Paul said that our bodies will be redeemed, so don't try to say otherwise.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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“We” in that verse refers to all Christians from Adam to present. Those Christians that died before Christ came went to Abraham’s bosom until Christ came and paid for their sins. Once he paid for their sins they were raised and ascended with Christ when he ascended. We that are alive and remain, including Paul will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

When it’s time for the believer to leave this world we are changed into our glorified bodies and taken straight to heaven to be with Jesus forever.
That does not happen upon death. Paul taught that the change into our glorified bodies will not happen until the last trumpet sounds (1 Cor 15:50-54) which will be at Christ's second coming because that is when the dead in Christ will be raised (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17).
 
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Jamdoc

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No, you have it wrong. Tim, what you are failing to understand is that Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews (Judaism) on how to survive the great tribulation by fleeing to the mountains.

Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians, who believe Jesus as Lord, but don't know what hour our Lord comes - for the rapture.

The Jews don't read the New Testament and Matthew 24. So the parable of the fig tree beginning in Matthew 24:32 means nothing to them.

But to Christians, it lets us know that our generation is the generation that not pass away until all of the end times events have taken place.

The parable of the fig tree generation (in order)
the rapture
the ToD act
the AoD setup
the great tribulation
Jesus's return

Matthew 24 was to His disciples, believers, not unbelieving Jews.
I hate that lie so much.
 
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Jamdoc

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Again this violates other scripture - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:".

Two more witnesses that ALL men die.

Jos_23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

1Ki 2:1 Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying,
1Ki_2:2 I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man;

All men die, there's no way that "worthy to escape all these things" can mean taken to heaven in the rapture, it means divine protection THROUGH the scourge.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

It is repeated here:

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Jesus talked about an entire generation that wouldn't pass away, because they'd see the end of the age fulfilled, and Paul talked about how we wouldn't all sleep (physical death) in 1 Corinthians 15, and in 1 Thessalonians 4 there would be people who are alive at Jesus' return who are caught up to Him, Paul never says that they're killed THEN resurrected and caught up to Him. Just that they're caught up. Elijah and Enoch also never died.

Hebrews 9:27 says it's appointed for men, it doesn't say ALL though, it's not an exhaustive statement. There have been exceptions in the past, and there will be an entire generation in the future.

In Revelation 14, Jesus is on the clouds and 2 harvests are done. The first harvest is done by Jesus, that reaping of the earth is not put through the wrath of God.
The second harvest is done by an angel, and they're specifically said to be the clusters of the vine of the earth, earth dwellers, unsaved people... these are put through the winepress of God's wrath.

The first harvest, is the rapture.
 
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Bob_1000

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Sometimes, there are exceptions to things written in scripture which makes it unwise to interpret those things too literally as if there can't be exceptions to what is stated. This is one of them.

For example, Lazarus died twice. That verse, Hebrews 9:27, has been true for a vast majority of people from all-time with the exceptions of some people like Lazarus who were resurrected with their mortal bodies and ended up dying again. Another exception will be those who are alive at Christ's second coming.
I don't think its a matter of exception but it's a matter of - does the verse mean that man can only die once or does it mean that man will die at least one time.

We have biblical examples of several people who died more than once so obviously death isn't limited to one time. That means that it is appointed to man to die at least one time.

There are no biblical examples of anyone bypassing death. Enoch died according to Hebrews and all we know about Elijah is that he was taken up to heaven. Was it the first, second or third heaven.... the bible doesn't say.

Jesus said "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man". Did Jesus lie... of course not. I'm sure Elijah went the same way as Enoch.
 
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Aldebaran

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I tend to see those alive on earth as the "dead in Christ". Those in Paradise are the ones who are alive in Christ, and with the Lord. The majority are now in heaven.

If the dead in Christ are those who are alive on earth, then why is there a distinction made in the verses about that?

1 Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

If those who are alive in Christ are the ones currently in Paradise, why would they have to be "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" if they were already in Paradise? Remember, the passage starts out with the Lord descending from Heaven. That indicates that He comes out of Heaven and down to Earth, even though not all the way to the ground.
 
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Jamdoc

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If the dead in Christ are those who are alive on earth, then why is there a distinction made in the verses about that?

1 Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

If those who are alive in Christ are the ones currently in Paradise, why would they have to be "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" if they were already in Paradise? Remember, the passage starts out with the Lord descending from Heaven. That indicates that He comes out of Heaven and down to Earth, even though not all the way to the ground.

There is the point in a few verses before that
1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So their spirits are with Christ right now while their bodies are dead. They are not in a bodily state they're not glorified yet.
But Christ brings those spirits of the departed with Him when He returns, reunites them with their bodies and resurrects them. Then we all meet each other in the air.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I can't vote in the poll, since I would identify myself as a "non-tribulationist".

I believe that Christ will return when He returns, and when He does the dead will be raised, even as the Scriptures teach.

He could return in 10 seconds, He could return in 10 thousand years. Theories of a future "tribulation" are mere human opinions.

How confident am I? Pretty confident. Maybe there will be a period of particularly intense tribulation at some point shortly before the Lord's return, I have no idea; I see no reason to believe in such speculations.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jamdoc

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I can't vote in the poll, since I would identify myself as a "non-tribulationist".

I believe that Christ will return when He returns, and when He does the dead will be raised, even as the Scriptures teach.

He could return in 10 seconds, He could return in 10 thousand years. Theories of a future "tribulation" are mere human opinions.

How confident am I? Pretty confident. Maybe there will be a period of particularly intense tribulation at some point shortly before the Lord's return, I have no idea; I see no reason to believe in such speculations.

-CryptoLutheran

Olivet Discourse? Daniel? Revelation? the epistles to the Thessalonians?
they all teach of a period of tribulation before the end of the age.
 
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Aldebaran

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I can't vote in the poll, since I would identify myself as a "non-tribulationist".

I believe that Christ will return when He returns, and when He does the dead will be raised, even as the Scriptures teach.

He could return in 10 seconds, He could return in 10 thousand years. Theories of a future "tribulation" are mere human opinions.

How confident am I? Pretty confident. Maybe there will be a period of particularly intense tribulation at some point shortly before the Lord's return, I have no idea; I see no reason to believe in such speculations.

-CryptoLutheran

Not even if Jesus tells you it's going to happen?

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again. And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
 
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JulieB67

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I'm very confident in the fact that Christ returns at the 7th and last trump which is the trump of God. And as Paul teaches, all are changed at that point. Do I believe he whisks certain believers away at some point before that? No. I used to but it's not biblical. And both Christ and Paul give strict warnings for us not to be deceived on this subject. Paul even went as far as to write a second letter to nail down the timing for the Thessalonians but confusion is still out there to this day.
 
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Timtofly

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Sometimes, there are exceptions to things written in scripture which makes it unwise to interpret those things too literally as if there can't be exceptions to what is stated. This is one of them.

For example, Lazarus died twice. That verse, Hebrews 9:27, has been true for a vast majority of people from all-time with the exceptions of some people like Lazarus who were resurrected with their mortal bodies and ended up dying again. Another exception will be those who are alive at Christ's second coming.
You make it sound like Lazarus immediately died again even before the Cross. I doubt that is a wise assumption. There is no record of Lazarus dying again. Once again, an assumption. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom for at least 4 days. Do you claim he tasted death and went back to Abraham's bosom until the Cross? No one has tasted death and entered Abraham's bosom after the Cross.

How far into being literal do you take Hebrews 9:27? I guess no one can be raptured without dying either? Lazarus could have ascended along with all the other bodies when Jesus did that Sunday. No one described that ascension, because it had nothing to do with the NT church. It was about Christ the firstfruits.

Is the transfer of the soul from one body to another body, death, or is death just shedding this corruptible body? Because even David claimed shedding this body was only sleep. It was still tasting death. Christ made it clear, many would soon, not taste death at all.

That to me would mean not be sent to sheol. So death was not just a loss of the physical body, but the loss of the soul, itself in sheol.

Hebrews 9:27 definitely is not saying it is appointed that all must go to sheol, and after this the judgment. Unless it is. Do those in Christ get to skip that appointment, because the judgment was the Cross, and is now in the past?

Too many take this verse out of context to prove other points. The point was that Jesus only died once. The appointment to death was given one time to Adam, and death was passed down to all according to Paul. So just living in this body satisfies that appointment. This body is the one time death appointment. For those in Christ it is an everlasting life sentence as the judgement passed on through Christ. One just has to wait until this dead body is left behind.

I think some equate death as ceasing to exist. Death is separation from God. God, Jesus did not cease to exist on the Cross. God Himself did not cease to exist, but was separated for one split second. One may ask separated from what. Certainly not each other, as the physical aspect can only show. Although giving up the Holy Spirit would indicate a separation from the physical body. Yet we are not physically dead from being separated from our spirit. We are spiritually dead in that case.

The moment of Atonement indicates that all three beings of God became one. The separation could only be that GOD was cut off as being transcendent, and was fully a created being to bear all of the sin as a dead human separated from GOD outside of creation itself. Being transcendent ceased to exist for the act, and then transcendence was restored. That is the death that happened along with the physical body actually physically dying itself, even though sin did not demand that appointment of death. Jesus still lived that point in Hebrews 9:27.

So claiming all souls have to leave this body is either overstating this verse or making unnecessary demands on how a soul must leave this body. Just being born as a descendant of Adam is a death sentence for all, in physical life itself. Obviously not many will see it that way, they only view the physical body as being alive. They only see the point it will stop functioning. Even in ashes it has not stopped existing. It is just existing useless dust of creation. What no longer exist, is usefulness. And that is a metaphysical point of determination, way outside of the topic.

For a person who places all their theology into the spiritual, holding to the physicality of the body seems contrary to the norm. Demanding that a resurrection has to be back to death instead of life, rejects Jesus as the Resurrection and the Life. Especially since the account was given as Jesus being the Resurrection and the Life. Does a second death indicate that only Lazarus enjoyed a second resurrection? Do we all die twice physically then? Many want their second resurrection, but then point out only one death? There is only the first resurrection and it is to an incorruptible body. A body that cannot die again as promised. Of course God could cause all of creation to cease to exist and never return.
 
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Timtofly

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What you're saying directly contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:44. Paul was not talking about one's soul, he was talking about the body. He said it (our body) is sown a natural BODY, and it will be raised a spiritual BODY. In 1 Cor 15:45, Paul refers to a whole person (body, soul and spirit) as a living soul, but it is the BODY that will be raised, as 1 Cor 15:44 specifically says. And it will be raised "a spiritual BODY".

Also, Paul said that our bodies will be redeemed, so don't try to say otherwise.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Paul is using a metaphor. The body is not literally sown into the ground.

This dead body was redeemed on the Cross. But still stamped for the dust bin. God certified for us a new incorruptible permanent body, not made from the genetics of Adam's flesh and blood. This dead body is redeemed and we are no longer held accountable for the sin of the flesh. But it certainly will not be changed. The soul will change garments.

The change is not the physical body changing. The change is from one body to a totally different body. That is what the metaphor is saying. For example, if you plant corn, you do not go out and dig up the old seed in the ground and eat it. You eat the new seed that came out of a new plant from the old seed. Our bodies are not going to grow a new body. The metaphor was supposed to show you that the new body is totally different than the original, not that the original one some how got better.
 
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Timtofly

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That does not happen upon death. Paul taught that the change into our glorified bodies will not happen until the last trumpet sounds (1 Cor 15:50-54) which will be at Christ's second coming because that is when the dead in Christ will be raised (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17).
Paul also pointed out the difference between corruptible/incorruptible and mortal/putting on immortality. Not the same thing. One is the physical body. The other is the spirit of light.

The soul gets a new body to put on, and then the spirit is put on around the body symbolically like putting on a robe of white.

Once again. I would agree the spirit is a physical created part of us. Yet one would not want to call the spirit physical. But you turn around and claim the spirit is getting an immortal body. How is the spirit an immortal body if it is not even physical? That is taking Paul's metaphor and claiming a literal interpretation. The dead physical body becomes this live immortal spiritual body. No such animal. The soul puts on a permanent incorruptible body, and at the Second Coming puts on the spirit as a robe of white. Glorification is the literal act symbolized by the metaphor "putting on immortality".

Yes the root of immortality is being immortal. The Greek term meaning divine. Greek mythology gives us the picture of gods walking around on earth. Satan's fables, all of it.

Adam was a son of God, not a god walking around on earth. Adam was in the image of God. He had an incorruptible body. He had on immortality. He was not immortal. What Adam had on was a spirit portraying what is was to be as like God. Adam was not God. We do not have immortal bodies. We have incorruptible permanent bodies wrapped in our spirit, which is light. Our spirit is the physical embodiment of light. Putting on the spirit is being glorified. How can we know this. The mount of Transfiguration shows us what it is to have our spirit wrapped around our body. When Moses was on the mount, he started to glow, and his face had to be covered.

No one may agree, but to see and experience God, Moses had to have had an incorruptible body, and his spirit given to him, for him to show the glow experienced. This corruptible body and lack of spirit will not do that. In this body, we have been separated from all that is being spiritual or having on our spirit. At the same time our spirit is not dead, is separated from us, and certainly not in us. Paul makes it clear, it is something we put on, not ingest, nor become. We do not become immortal. We do not get immortal bodies, because a body is the physical part, incorruptible. We put on the spirit, we put on immortality, we are glorified. We put on a robe of white, the symbolic term John uses in the 5th Seal. We become a living light bulb. Does the spirit always light up? Not necessarily, Jesus only had that experience on the mount of Transfiguration. Moses eventually stopped glowing. I think we will in the New Jerusalem, have the ability to shine as lights or not.

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

And all those who live in it as sons of God, in the image of God. If the city is as large as measured, creation will not need a sun or moon as pointed out:

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there."

Never night and a light for all nations on the earth.
 
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Timtofly

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If the dead in Christ are those who are alive on earth, then why is there a distinction made in the verses about that?

1 Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

If those who are alive in Christ are the ones currently in Paradise, why would they have to be "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" if they were already in Paradise? Remember, the passage starts out with the Lord descending from Heaven. That indicates that He comes out of Heaven and down to Earth, even though not all the way to the ground.
Why is Paul still not alive and remain? He is now one of those dead in Christ who arose first. After Paul said that all the dead in Christ arise first, what has changed that prevents that? Even the living are now in the same condition, and can no longer prevent that fact. Were all the living supposed to wait for all the dead? Most have failed at waiting. They literally gave up any attempt to prevent the resurrection, even if they could. Do you really expect the prevention to happen at the last moment? If it cannot happen then, it has never happened. The dead in Christ constantly arise, and nothing can prevent that.

Do you think we are only absent from the body at the Second Coming? Is Paul still in his body, or absent? Paul was not saying the Second Coming itself will prevent the dead in Christ to rise first. It seems the only prevention is how some interpret the verse to make something prevent them from rising first. The claim is they cannot rise first earlier than the Second Coming as Paul seems to indicate. Yet Paul also indicates to be absent from the body is to present with the Lord, and in a permanent incorruptible body. Do you interpret the 1st letter with the 2nd letter, or do you interpret the 2nd letter with the 1st letter? If the first choice, then not even time can prevent leaving the body for another. If you interpret the 2nd letter with the 1st letter, then you make all those in Christ remain in their body, and have to wait until the Second Coming to be present with the Lord. I do not see waiting in a dead body as applicable. I see the dead in Christ as continually rising first and being present with the Lord in an incorruptible body. The verse does not say they have to wait. It says they rise first. The second letter says rising first is being absent from the body and being present with the Lord. I would think most people would rather be present with the Lord, instead of waiting until the Second Coming. If we are present with the Lord even before death, why did Paul state to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Are we already absent before leaving this physical body? Is the soul two places at once, and now it is not until the Second Coming? If the soul is already risen and present with the Lord before physical death, is that already saying we do not wait until the Second Coming?

Once again, no buried body is going to rise into the sky. Probably not even an alive body. It is plausible it will turn to dust as the soul leaves it behind.

Still pointing out absent from the body is present with the Lord, even at the Second Coming. This dead corruptible body will be vacated. Only Enoch was translated. Although translated is still only being absent from the body and present with the Lord in a permanent incorruptible body. Interesting that a close Sci fi term is used in a pre flood setting. Now that we are submersed in Sci fi, we use the term rapture and most do not even want to. We could go back to translated, no?

Is not the whole Second Coming issue is the soul of the living is caught up. Does that not mean rise? Jesus pointed out in the Gospels souls collected from heaven itself, and once from the earth. Does Paradise cover all four corners of heaven? Or have some souls put on bodies to explore other parts of the heavens? If the soul is not a physical body now, how can it experience creation without a physical body if it is currently present with the Lord. Paul says with the Lord is having a permanent incorruptible body. How can souls be spread out all over the heavens and still with the Lord? How literal does one get just to create nonsensical contradictions? The Lord is with us now, but we are not with the Lord. Yet most will not give up the point no bodies until the Second Coming.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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I voted unsure because for me it is a toss up between pre-trib and mid-trib. Daniel 12 leads me to think mid-trib, but I am very unsure about it so I cannot say which position I take. There is another view not shown in the poll that is sort of like mid-trib but isn't called the pre-wrath rapture, which I think means a rapture between the middle and end of tribulation but isn't an exact fixed point in time. But I could be wrong on that definition.

I have a class eventually in Eschatology so that ought to be really good. We are now on Chapter 8 of Revelation using Steve Greggs book "4 views of Revelation" though I'm personally a bit ahead of our study group and on Chapter 10. But the formal class will be really good to finally understand all the beliefs and options, though I continue to learn from all of you as I read through what you each wrote.
 
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Jamdoc

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I voted unsure because for me it is a toss up between pre-trib and mid-trib. Daniel 12 leads me to think mid-trib, but I am very unsure about it so I cannot say which position I take. There is another view not shown in the poll that is sort of like mid-trib but isn't called the pre-wrath rapture, which I think means a rapture between the middle and end of tribulation but isn't an exact fixed point in time. But I could be wrong on that definition.

Sounds like the pre wrath rapture in timing. The point of the pre wrath rapture is that after the midpoint, the Great Tribulation starts according to Jesus in Matthew 24. Then after the tribulation the sun and moon go dark, which happens at the 6th seal of Revelation 6. That'd mean that the great tribulation is between the midpoint and the 6th seal, leaving the trumpets and bowls afterward as God's wrath, all of this taking place in the last 3.5 years. So it's between the midpoint and the end of the 70th week, but nobody knows what day (or hour). It's just "sometime" within a 3.5 year period.

I have a class eventually in Eschatology so that ought to be really good. We are now on Chapter 8 of Revelation using Steve Greggs book "4 views of Revelation" though I'm personally a bit ahead of our study group and on Chapter 10. But the formal class will be really good to finally understand all the beliefs and options, though I continue to learn from all of you as I read through what you each wrote.
 
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