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How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JohnB445, Aug 3, 2021.

Which belief are you the most confident on?

  1. Pre-trib rapture

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  2. Pre-wrath rapture

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  3. Mid-trib rapture

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  4. Post-trib rapture

    10 vote(s)
    30.3%
  5. Unsure

    11 vote(s)
    33.3%
  1. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    One of the reasons I adhere to Pre-wrath is because we are not appointed for wrath, but at the same time we are promised tribulation. God's wrath and the Great Tribulation are not the same things and that is an important distinction for me.

    Well the thing about Baptists is they can be all over the place on things like Calvanism vs Arminianism, and Rapture Timing, they don't have official positions because Baptists at large are not really organized, especially outside of certain conventions like the SBC. Independent Fundamental Baptists are a thing and their doctrines vary from church to church because their authority is only in scripture not some earthly hierarchy

    That is one of the things that I think is goofiest about post trib position, the idea that you can survive the wrath of God through earthly preparations.
    Whatever your rapture position, the only way to really get through it is to strengthen yourself in the Lord, and trust Him.
    If I'm wrong and it's pre-trib, well then, great, that's a pleasant surprise for me, but if I'm right? I trust that, okay, maybe I'm in the number that's martyred in Revelation 6:9-11, okay, God has decided that that is how I can best serve Him, then that is what I'll do. I trust that since He moved me to die for His name, that He will make good on that. Jesus promised that whomsoever loses their life for His sake will find it (and to the preppers, whomsoever shall seek to save his life will lose it, Matthew 16:25). I will strengthen myself in the Lord and bear with it. No amount of hoarding or prepping would really avail me. Jesus did say for those who would witness the Abomination of Desolation, to just run. Don't hole up, don't prepare, just flee. You don't go back to your house to pack for a trip, you just, flee, even if it's on foot with nothing but your clothes. You trust that God will provide for you, or that if God has determined you are to be a martyr, that He'll see you through it and make good on it.

    The same holds true if post trib is right, by the time we're talking about the wrath of God in the trumpets and vials? No earthly preparation would avail you. None. It's the faithless that hide in bunkers at the 6th seal asking for the rocks to hide them.
    it's not going to do any good.
    all you can do is strengthen yourself in the Lord and trust God.

    I only took a firm stance on the subject in the last few years and I have been saved for over a quarter of a century.
    It was simply a topic I didn't really pay attention to until late 2019.. I don't know why I suddenly took an interest in bible prophecy right around December of 2019.. but I just did, I took an interest in going back to church at the same time, which prior to that It'd been awhile since I'd actually been to Church. I was a backslider.

    As for my confidence.. I honestly wish I could be confident in pre trib, I really wish I could. but every time I read through scripture I just find more and more evidence pointing to pre-wrath.

    One of the most profound is the realization that at Revelation 6:12-13, by Jesus' own definitions in Matthew 24:29, the Great Tribulation is over.
    Everything that happens after Revelation 6:12-13, is not the Great Tribulation.
    which means that Jesus has a very specific definition for what Great Tribulation means and it is not just "bad stuff that happens during the 70th week of Daniel".
    you might think, how is that possible?! The Mark of the Beast isn't until Revelation 13!
    well, it reinforces to me that Revelation is not in Chronological Order.
    Jesus said immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun and moon would be darkened, Jesus was referring to the Great Tribulation, and the darkening of the sun and moon takes place at the 6th seal.
    So everything post 6th seal is no longer the Great Tribulation, according to Jesus.
    The mark of the beast must therefore be taking place before the 6th seal (I equate the Mark of the Beast to be taking place during the 5th seal)

    The position fits with everything consistently, that God WILL let us endure persecution on Earth by other men, even to death, because it strengthens our witness.
    But God has promised not to subject us to HIS wrath.
    Noah, endured persecution, delivered from God's wrath
    Lot, endured persecution and threats by men, delivered from God's wrath
    those are the two examples we have directly from Jesus.

    Isaiah 26, resurrection happens before the Indignation (wrath), the resurrection happens just prior to the rapture.
    Daniel 12, the resurrection happens after the tribulation

    It just all piles up, and when I can see Jesus in the pages of Revelation 6:12-17, and I can see Jesus in the pages of Revelation 14:14-20
    I get excited because.. I know, I can see in the Word of God, Jesus coming back to take His church, not to be confused with Revelation 19 where Jesus comes back with His church. Every time people want to claim that Revelation 19 is the second coming, I think they're blind for not seeing Him in Revelation 6 and 14 (same event btw, but NOT the same event as Revelation 19)
     
  2. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    I am of the belief that what happens, happens. I didn't vote since that isn't an option.
     
  3. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    a "Pan-Tribulationist" huh, a "it'll all pan out".
     
  4. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the rapture is the judgment on those who are looking at it to happen at the wrong time.

    Did you not die with Christ and His judgment became your judgment? Did not Christ say we would never taste death again?

    The appointment is the soul leaving this corruptible body for an incorruptible one, and then the reward. Those appointed to death without Christ still have to stand before the GWT.

    The emphasis is not on the dying. It should be on the fact those in Christ only die once. Some are appointed to the Second Death as well.
     
  5. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Revelation is in chronological order, but Jesus went from the end, back to the Second Coming in reverse order.

    The tribulation of those days is not the GT. It is just those days. Jesus Christ brings the angels and Trump of God. The GT cannot start until Christ arrives at the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is not just the sign. The sign is the Second Coming. No one will even know when the tribulation of those days starts, but they will know when it ends. Only after Christ comes will be the GT. It is bad because it is the final harvest and when all is said and done, all of Adam's flesh and blood will have died. The 4th Seal is bad enough, where 25% of humanity is gone. The Second Coming will keep up this time of Judgment because the angels are here to remove souls and send them to either Death or Life. Not sure why some think it is just a survival process. The church is to persevere in this age since the Cross. Those who do not give up reach their goal in the here and now. The only goal at the Second Coming is the end of Adam's flesh and blood. Adam's punishment is over. We have accomplished the 4th commandment. 6 days shalt thou labor. We are now going to remember what the Sabbath Day is.
     
  6. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Sure let's completely disregard all context and just have Jesus do random incoherent babbling then, and take every line of scripture on its own, rather than....
    use context to figure out what He's talking about, knowing who He is and what He's communicating to His disciples answering their questions.

    Jesus had just discussed the Great Tribulation, happening after the Abominationf of Desolation.
    THEN He says after the tribulation of those days (context says, the Great Tribulation), the sun and moon darken (the sixth seal signs).

    I'm gonna go with Jesus on this and His definitions and His context and His timing.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You are complaining that God in His wonderful mercy and grace has chosen that there would be one generation that would not taste death, but be changed in the twinkling of an eye?

    1Corinthians15:
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
     
  8. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Member

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    Yes the old man, our flesh, is crucified with Christ for sure, that man is dead and gone in the believer and will never come back but John 11:25-26 is about the death of our mortal bodies.

    Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (The Resurrection)

    Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Those that are alive and remain AFTER the resurrection)
    The so called rapture verses are actually the translation process of ALL believers... Believer's never taste death, see death nor experience death.

    Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish (DIE), but have eternal life.

    We have eternal life right now and there is no "pause" in eternal life, as Jesus said, he that believeth in him will NEVER die.
     
  9. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Member

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    I guess my question to you would be why are you limiting God's mercy and grace to only ONE generation when it applies to ALL generations?
    "We" in verse 51 is all peoples of all time who's sins have been covered by the blood of Christ. Some of those believer's did sleep, the one's who slept were the Old Testament saints. These are the ones that could not enter heaven because Christ had not yet redeemed them and that's why they went to Abraham's bosom.

    Once Jesus redeemed them, they left Abraham's bosom and went to heaven with Jesus when He ascended. Those of us that have lived AFTER his resurrection don't have to go to Abraham's bosom, we are translated directly into heaven in our incorruptible bodies. We never sleep.

    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
     
  10. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well there is another view however not sure if it can be discussed in this forum. It is worth making the list. Blessings.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Because all generations are not subjected to the time of the great tribulation, that will come upon the world like a snare. At which time, God's wrath will be poured out on the world.

    The purpose of the rapture is so not to have to go through the great tribulation. Which is the message to Christians in Matthew 24:32-51. While in Matthew 24:15-31, the message to Jews, Judaism, who will end up going through the great tribulation, to survive is for them in Judeah to flee to the mountains when they see the aod staining in the holy place .

    Luke 21:34-36

    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    The we in verse 51 is them in Christ who will be alive at the time when the rapture takes place.

    1Thesslaonians5:9-11

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  12. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Except the AoD is after the GT. That is the point. Jesus got to the end:

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


    Jesus then gave us the first thing before the end.


    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    Then before that we have:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    But before the GT, we have this:


    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Before the Second Coming we have the tribulation of those days:


    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Jesus did not just throw out words randomly. The fig tree blooming is the start, not the very end. The fig tree does not come at the end, and the Abomination of desolation, does not come at the start of the process. There was no temple 100 years ago. There was no GT before the fig tree bloomed. We have to put them in reverse order Jesus gave, not some random order of our choosing.

    The fig tree.
    The Second Coming
    The GT.
    The AoD.

    The gospel still preached until the very end.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    We have eternal life right now, because our souls have been redeemed. Our bodies though have yet to be redeemed.

    The rapture only happens once because the great tribulation only happens once. The purpose of the rapture is to escape the great tribulation. I think recognizing that reason is what you are missing about the rapture, Bob.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No there is no great tribulation before the AOD. The fleeing to the mountains for them in Judeah is Jesus telling the Jews (Judaism) in Judeah on how to survive the great tribulation.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, you have it wrong. Tim, what you are failing to understand is that Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews (Judaism) on how to survive the great tribulation by fleeing to the mountains.

    Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians, who believe Jesus as Lord, but don't know what hour our Lord comes - for the rapture.

    The Jews don't read the New Testament and Matthew 24. So the parable of the fig tree beginning in Matthew 24:32 means nothing to them.

    But to Christians, it lets us know that our generation is the generation that not pass away until all of the end times events have taken place.

    The parable of the fig tree generation (in order)
    the rapture
    the ToD act
    the AoD setup
    the great tribulation
    Jesus's return
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  16. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    We have not tasted death since the Cross. The soul goes immediately from this corruptible body to a permanent incorruptible body.

    That was the point in showing that Jesus was the Resurrection and Life when He called Lazarus out of the grave. Jesus on the Cross called all those in Abraham's bosom out of the grave. Each soul of those whose physical bodies stopped functioning, were called out of this dead body, the only grave left for those in Christ.

    I am not talking about the old man. That is only symbolism of the new birth, that of the Holy Spirit into the family of God. The act of resurrection is now ongoing, since the Cross. No soul waits in death in Abraham's bosom any more. This ongoing phenomenon will end at the Second Coming. Any soul still in Adam's corruptible body will still immediately enter a permanent incorruptible body. That is the part of being changed, from one type of "clothing" to another. The soul sheds one body for a better body. The old man is symbolic of our nature. Our nature is dealt with on a daily basis.


    I tend to see those alive on earth as the "dead in Christ". Those in Paradise are the ones who are alive in Christ, and with the Lord. The majority are now in heaven.

    The last day resurrection in context and thought process, refers only to the OT. That last day resurrection was at the Cross, when all those in Abraham's bosom were allowed out of the grave and given permanent incorruptible bodies to enter Paradise.
     
  17. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The rapture is not just escaping the GT. As Paul claims, the rapture is one and the same with the Second Coming. The church is not the final harvest. The church should have a golden harvest, but the point of the Second Coming is to harvest the firstfruits for the Day of the Lord, the Millennial Kingdom.

    The church is the firstfruits of Paradise. The church is glorified at the Second Coming. Then and only then can the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom be chosen after the Second Coming. The Trumpets and Thunders is the harvest of souls for this Kingdom.

    Those who avoid the rapture and glorification of the church, are shooting for the Millennium on earth. Except that is not a goal stated. That is just what perseverance until beheading will afford those on that path.

    The reason this tribulation is great is because it is the final harvest. Yes, the final harvest can only happen once. Adam's flesh and blood never gets a reboot. This is the end of the road. 6 days shalt thou labor, but the 7th is the Sabbath. The only ones getting into the Sabbath will be resurrected, or sealed and changed as the 144k. Adam's corruptible body will not be in the Millennial Kingdom.
     
  18. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The fleeing happened in 67AD.

    Those who will be beheaded will either flee, or choose to be beheaded.

    The fleeing comes after the GT, when the FP sets up the AoD.

    This is that part that applies to the destruction of the OT temple and Jerusalem. The Second Coming Temple will not be destroyed, neither Jerusalem. The Temple will be occupied by Satan and the FP for 42 months. This occupation is not the GT. It is only desolation. The only ones left are those to be beheaded. This is not the final harvest. This is the gleanings left for Satan to harvest.

    It is very obvious the Trumpets and Thunders take up time before these last 42 months. The Trumpets and Thunders are not in the last 42 months.

    The 42 months split the days of the 7th Trumpet. Some think the 7th Trumpet starts sounding first and within that sounding are the other 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders come first, the GT. Then the 7th Trumpet is interrupted by a 42 month period that ends in the 7 vials and the battle of Armageddon.
     
  19. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    As pointed out, being beheaded is the only way to be saved. No rapture if you loose your head. Paul says the rapture and Second Coming are the same event. Armageddon is not the Second Coming. Everyone should know Armageddon is 42 months from the time of the AoD. That is not a thief in the night Second Coming. The 6th Seal is the thief in the night Second Coming. No one can pinpoint the 6th Seal. All can pinpoint Armageddon. Either Jesus gives us the timeline in reverse order, thus keeping the point of no one knowing, true. Or it is a lie that no one knows the day and hour.
     
  20. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Member

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    Again this violates other scripture - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:".

    Two more witnesses that ALL men die.

    Jos_23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

    1Ki 2:1 Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying,
    1Ki_2:2 I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man;

    All men die, there's no way that "worthy to escape all these things" can mean taken to heaven in the rapture, it means divine protection THROUGH the scourge.

    Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
    Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
    Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

    It is repeated here:

    Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
    Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
     
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