How Christianity became so big..

dzheremi

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Thank you for clarifying your position. I apologize if what I wrote came off as haranguing or otherwise unpleasant or accusatory. It was not meant to be. I wasn't sure how to take your post, and I might be too sensitive to the oft-repeated treatment of Christian history as being synonymous with European and broadly Western colonial history, which as an adopted member of a native church which was not the result of colonization (you cannot colonize yourselves, and the Coptic Church is that of the native Egyptian population, as opposed to the Greeks, Arabs, etc.) is a view I strongly disagree with, since the history I know from that vantage point suggests that this common equation is faulty on many fronts.

As to your examples, I don't know the specifics of those cases (I didn't get to go to Salem when I was in NH last year, sadly...maybe some other time), but I would probably be more likely to agree with you than to disagree, even as we disagree in our religious paths overall. No British guy with a buckle hat is going to be in charge of my spiritual life, either, so pagan or not, the impulse to resist to the death such forced conversion is one I can sympathize with.

Anyway...again, thank you for explaining your view. I appreciate it.
 
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Zoness

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Thank you for clarifying your position. I apologize if what I wrote came off as haranguing or otherwise unpleasant or accusatory. It was not meant to be. I wasn't sure how to take your post, and I might be too sensitive to the oft-repeated treatment of Christian history as being synonymous with European and broadly Western colonial history, which as an adopted member of a native church which was not the result of colonization (you cannot colonize yourselves, and the Coptic Church is that of the native Egyptian population, as opposed to the Greeks, Arabs, etc.) is a view I strongly disagree with, since the history I know from that vantage point suggests that this common equation is faulty on many fronts.

As to your examples, I don't know the specifics of those cases (I didn't get to go to Salem when I was in NH last year, sadly...maybe some other time), but I would probably be more likely to agree with you than to disagree, even as we disagree in our religious paths overall. No British guy with a buckle hat is going to be in charge of my spiritual life, either, so pagan or not, the impulse to resist to the death such forced conversion is one I can sympathize with.

Anyway...again, thank you for explaining your view. I appreciate it.

No worries! Frankly, I got defensive at first and then figured I was being over-dramatic lol. I understand that especially since your faith isn't of the "European" bent, for lack of a better term, that it probably gets pretty old being accused of things that have nothing to do with your faith tradition. I'll have to do some of my own research on Orthodoxy and Coptic history so I have more depth in that area of discussion. Honestly I think the closest Orthodox church in the area is Greek and its a 50 mile drive away. Until I spent time on this forum, Orthodoxy didn't really factor into the equation but it appears to be a very rich Christian tradition.

Thanks for replying!
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Let's not forget that once a religion reaches critical mass, it usually requires population wide conformity. After enough centuries once many had legitimately converted, it's not like there were allowed alternatives. If you had apostized you weren't simply incorrect you were evil and had to be eliminated.

Christianity does not explicitly call for this but it sure made for a politically expedient excuse to eliminate problem citizens and dissenters for ruling classes. This isn't unique to Christianity.
People often feel non-conformacy to the group to be a tacit condemnation thereof. We see this especially with vegans and meat eaters today, for instance. This is where conformity becomes socially pressured, if one side is ascendant and the other suitably unusual. Religions tend to be exclusive claims besides.
Often though, this was about politics. Trying to keep a united front, an Us against Them. This is even more relevant if the outgroup within Us has some relation to the Them - as for instance Muslims in Christian Spain or the Protestant Ascendancy in Catholic Ireland. The Government tends to enforce its own narrative, especially if a religious identity is conceived as a part thereof.

This also explains the tendency for religious groups to side with religious kin against other religions. The same thing happens in all aspects of human life, especially economic systems or politics too.

The group identity desires conformacy to it, as it derives its existence and justification thereby. In this way, a group identity is protective psychologically, as it justifies your thinking and gives support therefore, by numbers or intersubjective agreement. However it can become tyrannical, when its thinking ossifies and brooks no disagreement with its narrative. This is natural that things eventually decay into such thinking, until it gets restored or rejuvenated, when a new narrative emerges from the conflict between the group identity and individuals within the group that chafe under its strictures. In this way the disparate ideas undergo synthesis, and the almost Hegellian conflict starts anew. What is foreign always poses a challenge to group identity, and either needs to be synthesised, rendered impotent or eliminated - for such an identity to continue its function of maintaining psychologic order.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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If we were to put the Christian persecution of the Pagans following Constantine into a present day context we might do so as follows. It will start with crowds harassing ministers and priests in the streets. It proceeds to riots and the burning of churches with the consequent killing of pastors and prominent members of congregations. This proceeds to attacking bible colleges and seminaries. The faculty are murdered, the libraries are burned and the buildings demolished. In the meantime church after church is attacked and burned. The diehard Christians are shipped off to concentration camps for interrogation (torture) and execution. Now, imagine that not only Christian institutions are treated in this way but every institution that has Christians in the faculty. Everything tainted in the least bit with Christianity is attacked and destroyed and any objectors are tortured and killed. One after another our schools and academies and universities are destroyed, their teachers tortured and killed. Libraries great and small are put to the torch. Die hard Christians are hunted down to the few remaining churches and die en masse as martyrs to their faith. Now imagine this happening over three centuries. In the end the world devolves into a very long dark age of ignorance and superstition. Reverse the words Christian and Pagan and you might begin to imagine the persecution and the suffering and why the Roman Empire collapsed into barbarism for the next thousand years.
This is nonsense. Christianity saved a lot of Roman knowledge in monasteries and such, as the West fell to barbarians. Theodosius' anti-Pagan statutes were largely a coup-de-grace to a system that had been mostly set aside. For instance, when he closed the Academy in Athens, it had long ago devolved into a religious cult instead of allowing broad philosophical discourse. The fact that people like Boethius still existed, or the survival of Ancient knowledge in the Eastern Empire shows this narrative is flawed. In fact, a lot of Western knowledge was saved via Irish monasticism reintroducing it, after the barbarians had formed new kingdoms. This is how the Irish to Anglo-Saxon to Alcuin going to Charlemagne axis spread the culture.

The problem was epitomisation. The Romans only wrote pithy precis of what people had said and what knowledge they had accrued, at the end of their period. As vellum became more precious after the barbarian conquests, limited resources and scriptorium time was utilised for what was considered more 'practical' or encyclopaedic. A lot was thus lost, especially peoples' reasoning on a lot of issues.

The modern equivalent would be a major disaster and all we had left was a portion of Wikipedia and one or two half remembered elaborations thereof. This is the same type of silly thinking, that a part is sufficient to knowledge of the whole, or the modern tendency to denigrate theoretical knowledge in university, in favour of the 'practical'. Our times mirror Rome in many ways, but mostly symptoms leading up to the fall of that civilisation, I am afraid.

Anyway, I have debunked your claims of torture and so forth against the pagans in the past, so I won't say anymore. Please don't post that silly erroneous list of nonsense of supposed persecution of the pagans that you on occasion do. The facts are simply against it.
Persecution of Pagans took place, but this was not as severe, or there being as many Pagans left, as popularly supposed. Many Temples only survived on government subsidy, and died when this was withdrawn. The very word Pagan means essentially country bumpkin, so that illustrates that only the rude and isolated had not largely got with the times and converted.
 
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Silmarien

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Theodosius' anti-Pagan statutes were largely a coup-de-grace to a system that had been mostly set aside. For instance, when he closed the Academy in Athens, it had long ago devolved into a religious cult instead of allowing broad philosophical discourse.

Leave my Neoplatonists alone! ^_^ But yeah, in all seriousness, we tend to overlook the way in which innovation was considered undesirable in antiquity. Here, have another treatise on Plotinus... and another, and another. Whoever has the most faithful commentary on our favorite centuries old luminary wins, but whatever you do, don't be original.
 
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High Fidelity

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Because nothing is impossible for God.

The same statement can be said by an adherent of any faith and be just as credible(and incredulous given the lack of incontrovertible evidence), so the question again is what made Christianity stand out?

Religions are a dime a dozen and people are equally as devout and convinced they're following the 'true' religion, conveniently, depending on where they're born. We have Christianity and Islam that are dominant now, so what made those two stick out?
 
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Starcomet

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Early Christianity spread due to the immense amount of missionary work of Paul and the gentile converts to the religion. The beliefs of caring for the poor extensively, loving each other, and anti-violence likely made it appealing to many lower class citizens. Later on as it grew larger and adopted Greek philosophical concepts, it gained a following among the Roman elite and had some political clot which eventually led to its legalization after Constantine's vision. It mainly grew due to the large amount of missionary and birth rates among devout Christians.

Islam grew due to an immense religious fervor that existed within Muhammad and his followers and to convert others even with violence if necessary.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thought this might be a fun thread. Why do you think the spread of Christianity has been so successful? What do you think are the psychological attractions to the religion? Why did it blow up in the Roman world? What do you think Christianity has to say about humanity?

A lot of Romans liked "exotic" religions, even if the Roman establishment wasn't quite so fond of them.

Christianity was also culturally subversive in favor of the generally more marginalized people--such as women and slaves; Christian teaching was rather inclusive, giving women far more personal autonomy in religious matters than they might normally experience, and it also taught that slaves were brothers and sisters, not mere servants.

In some ways its similar to things we find pretty commonly in diverse societies. There are people who are drawn away from the dominant, established religion and toward something more "exotic" or offering a subversive view that differs from the cultural establishment. Consider the counter-culture movement of the 60's and 70's, lots of people were drawn toward all sorts of religions, spiritualities, and ideological positions that were counter to the prevailing culture of the time--because they provided an alternative, because they came across as more inclusive, all sorts of reasons. Christianity was something different, and something taboo.

Of course, as a Christian I believe it's significantly more than just this, as I believe in the inherent truthfulness of the faith claims of my religion, and that the Christian Gospel is more than mere appealing rhetoric.; but speculating from a purely sociological perspective I suspect these were major contributions, at least in terms of people being curious and interested in the new religion.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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cloudyday2

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A lot of Romans liked "exotic" religions, even if the Roman establishment wasn't quite so fond of them.

Christianity was also culturally subversive in favor of the generally more marginalized people--such as women and slaves; Christian teaching was rather inclusive, giving women far more personal autonomy in religious matters than they might normally experience, and it also taught that slaves were brothers and sisters, not mere servants.

In some ways its similar to things we find pretty commonly in diverse societies. There are people who are drawn away from the dominant, established religion and toward something more "exotic" or offering a subversive view that differs from the cultural establishment. Consider the counter-culture movement of the 60's and 70's, lots of people were drawn toward all sorts of religions, spiritualities, and ideological positions that were counter to the prevailing culture of the time--because they provided an alternative, because they came across as more inclusive, all sorts of reasons. Christianity was something different, and something taboo.

Of course, as a Christian I believe it's significantly more than just this, as I believe in the inherent truthfulness of the faith claims of my religion, and that the Christian Gospel is more than mere appealing rhetoric.; but speculating from a purely sociological perspective I suspect these were major contributions, at least in terms of people being curious and interested in the new religion.

-CryptoLutheran

Somehow this explanation seems unlikely to me due to the persecution. Although the oppression and martyring of Christians was exaggerated, some of that happened. Also many early Christians believed that sins after baptism would not be forgiven. ... So it seems different than a mere attraction to novelty. IDK
 
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cloudyday2

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I watched a video by John D. Crossan where he gave some factors in the rise of Christianity.
(1) The oppression of Christian was usually too brief and half-hearted.
(2) There was an emphasis on literacy among Christians that made them eligible and eventually essential for jobs in the Roman bureaucracy.
(3) The emphasis on charity such as hospitals made Christianity into an unofficial welfare department in the Roman bureaucracy.

That's what I recall, and I might be remembering some details wrong.

Of course the reputation of Christianity as the religion of slaves and women probably helped too. There were probably more slaves and women in the Roman empire than free men. And Christianity gave women a purpose besides the conservative child-rearing role. Women could be unmarried and equal to men in Christianity, because there was no need to raise children when the end of the world was eminent.
 
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Godistruth1

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Thought this might be a fun thread. Why do you think the spread of Christianity has been so successful? What do you think are the psychological attractions to the religion? Why did it blow up in the Roman world? What do you think Christianity has to say about humanity?
Christianity is on the decline now and is only growing in parts of Africa!
 
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dzheremi

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Christianity is on the decline now and is only growing in parts of Africa!

Not true. Christianity is declining in North America and Europe. It is growing, by quite a lot, in Asia and Africa. In fact, China is poised to have the world's largest population of Christians by 2030. Last time I checked, China is not in Africa. While Islam is poised to overtake Christianity in terms of total believers by about 2050 (due to having 34% of the world's Muslim population under the age of 15, as opposed to only 27% of the world's Christian population, so more Muslims are of child-bearing age; but see everything that follows this parenthesis), much depends on relative birth rates for Islam in particular precisely because that's the number one way that Islam grows (through high birth rates, since Muslims have highest global fertility rate of all surveyed religious groups, at 3.1 children per woman, compared to 2.7 for Christians, and 2.4 for Hindus -- the world average is 2.5). And while they are noticeably higher now than their nearest religious competitors, trends suggest a convergence in Muslim and non-Muslim fertility rates in Europe in the near future, because fertility rates have a lot more to do with economic opportunity than with religion. Even in the Middle East, this is felt. The fertility rate of Muslims is falling fast. As shown at the last link, the average Iranian woman now has fewer children than the average American woman -- 1.68 today, compared to around 7 (!) in 1950.

Further reading, before you or others make any more false claims: The claim that Muslims will overwhelm us if we don't have more kids is is mostly false.
 
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Godistruth1

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Thought this might be a fun thread. Why do you think the spread of Christianity has been so successful? What do you think are the psychological attractions to the religion? Why did it blow up in the Roman world? What do you think Christianity has to say about humanity?
Spanish Inquisition
 
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dzheremi

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Spanish Inquisition

Hahaha. I didn't know Mel Brooks had become an Indian Muslim. I guess he might be losing his critical faculties as an older gentleman. This is still first-class comedy, though.
 
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Godistruth1

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Hahaha. I didn't know Mel Brooks had become an Indian Muslim. I guess he might be losing his critical faculties as an older gentleman. This is still first-class comedy, though.
Are you Catholic or Protestant?
 
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Thought this might be a fun thread. Why do you think the spread of Christianity has been so successful? What do you think are the psychological attractions to the religion? Why did it blow up in the Roman world?
Two main reasons:

1. It won out in the Roman world because it was open to people from all walks of life, not being a religion of warriors, or women, or Jews, or slaves, or intellectuals, etc. which most of the other religions of the time were.

2. Once established there, the nations that grew out of the old Roman world were the ones that explored the rest of the world and colonized much of it, bringing their faith with them.
 
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juvenissun

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Thought this might be a fun thread. Why do you think the spread of Christianity has been so successful? What do you think are the psychological attractions to the religion? Why did it blow up in the Roman world? What do you think Christianity has to say about humanity?

People need god.
I am not sure, but I think theists are overwhelmingly more than atheists.
If so, your question is answered.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Thought this might be a fun thread. Why do you think the spread of Christianity has been so successful? What do you think are the psychological attractions to the religion? Why did it blow up in the Roman world? What do you think Christianity has to say about humanity?
Long story short:
Conquest.

In the case of the original Roman empire, it might just have been historical coincidence that eventually put an exclusivist, proselytising faith in total control (leading to all other religions being abolished by penalty of death, their texts destroyed, their temples and holy artifacts destroyed or seized). Things could have worked out differently, but they didn't, and the Talibanesque antics of Theodosius "the Great" and the Churches existing at that time made sure that no competing world view could ever hope to resurface again. (This was also the time when neo-Platonist philosopher Hypatia was killed in Alexandria, putting a final end to antiquity and its scholarship.)

As for the rest of history, simply compare the distribution of Christianity across the globe to historical maps of Colonialist conquest and the accompanying (cultural and actual) genocides. Religion was instrumental in this era of atrocity right from the start, when Spanish conquistadors exterminated whole civilizations in the name of the cross. This method was refined over the ages. The usual M.O. went like this:
Send missionaries who build schools as a "gift" to foreign nations, starting the process of assimilation. Then, wait for one of two things to happen:
1. You indoctrinate a sufficient number of locals to support your claims to their country ("The Pope has decreed that you are now subjects of the Spanish crown.")
2. The locals try to fight back, prompting you to retaliate with all military might against this vicious attack on "innocent Christians just wanting to do the right thing".

To my knowledge, virtually the only place to escape this trap was Japan, where the Shogun was warned by the Dutch against the subversion happening right under his nose. The result was gruesome indeed, with all Christian converts being executed and the shores of Japan being closed off to foreigners for several centuries, but it definitely saved that country from sharing the fate of the Philippines or others.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Long story short:
Conquest.

In the case of the original Roman empire, it might just have been historical coincidence that eventually put an exclusivist, proselytising faith in total control (leading to all other religions being abolished by penalty of death, their texts destroyed, their temples and holy artifacts destroyed or seized). Things could have worked out differently, but they didn't, and the Talibanesque antics of Theodosius "the Great" and the Churches existing at that time made sure that no competing world view could ever hope to resurface again. (This was also the time when neo-Platonist philosopher Hypatia was killed in Alexandria, putting a final end to antiquity and its scholarship.)
This is utter nonsense. Paganism died largely of its own accord and though not good for your career, Pagans weren't destroyed. To take an example here, we se Volusianus as proconsul of Africa, a practicing Pagan, in a high office at the start of the fifth century. Or Symmachus that petitioned Gratian to restore the Altar of Victory.
Temples were closed once there were too few pagans around, or too politically unimportant, as they were expensive public buildings best used for other purposes therefore. Sometimes this was not the case, but this was the exception rather than the rule. We see active Pagan temples in Rome during the sack of 410, and even later when Belisarius retook it.
Their writings certainly weren't destroyed. In fact the Iliad or Aenead, amongst many other Pagan works, remained the backbone of Christendom's Education syllabus until fairly recently

While Hypatia is given a lot of press, this is an isolated instance. The Academy at Athens continued to teach Neoplatonism up till Justinian closed it in the 6th century - more than 200 years after her. We still see Boethius continue the philosophic tradition in the West in the Ostrogothic Kingdom, too.
The Church is also responsible for saving a lot of it, from barbarians and the common folk that no longer saw much merit in it (not dissimilar to the cult of what is deemed 'practical' today, with philosophy and so forth denigrated for STEM fields).
The fact that it survived in the Eastern Empire and could be directly or via arab commentators, be reintroduced to the West, speaks volumes.
As for the rest of history, simply compare the distribution of Christianity across the globe to historical maps of Colonialist conquest and the accompanying (cultural and actual) genocides. Religion was instrumental in this era of atrocity right from the start, when Spanish conquistadors exterminated whole civilizations in the name of the cross. This method was refined over the ages. The usual M.O. went like this:
Send missionaries who build schools as a "gift" to foreign nations, starting the process of assimilation. Then, wait for one of two things to happen:
1. You indoctrinate a sufficient number of locals to support your claims to their country ("The Pope has decreed that you are now subjects of the Spanish crown.")
2. The locals try to fight back, prompting you to retaliate with all military might against this vicious attack on "innocent Christians just wanting to do the right thing".

To my knowledge, virtually the only place to escape this trap was Japan, where the Shogun was warned by the Dutch against the subversion happening right under his nose. The result was gruesome indeed, with all Christian converts being executed and the shores of Japan being closed off to foreigners for several centuries, but it definitely saved that country from sharing the fate of the Philippines or others.
This is a fairly specious narrative. Forced conversion certainly took place, but the situation is very different from what you describe.
We see Norse or Slavic conversion occuring without conquest, and the conversion of much of Africa without compulsion.

India was not forcibly converted, nor Africa, nor Indonesia. They had long periods of Christian rule. The Europeans massacred African populations, but sent in missionaries mostly. Look at the Dutch in Indonesia and South Africa, for instance.

The Spanish are a special case, but even here people like Las Casas pleaded for clemency, and the Church often acted as the protector of the natives. This is why clerics are so well represented in independance movements from Spain.
As to Conquistadors destroying the cultures of the Aztec or Maya - so what? That was thr moral thing to do, as these were cruel, murderous cultures drenched in human sacrifice. Like English suppression of Sati or the Thuggee cult, this is not only morally excusable, but called for.
 
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