• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

How can we resist that which we do not 'know'?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Imagican, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

    Christian Seeker
    Am I to assume that millions of people that can't agree upon 'the truth' can actually USE it to determine that which is not?

    In my lifetime, I have yet to find TWO people that agree upon what is 'truth' in the Bible.

    You speak of something tangible. Something 'man made' and try to use that as an example? I would say that the example has nothing to do with the topic. While it may 'sound good'. Not even as an example does it hold any water. Big difference between an 'object' and something as subjective as 'the truth'.

    Nice try though.


  2. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

    Christian Seeker
    Nope. Not at all. And I already spoke of the difference between 'common sense' and the 'recognition of evil'. Your example is 'not the same'. You are trying to say that I'm saying we MUST experience EVERYTHING in order to understand it. That is not what I am saying 'at all'.

    What I am saying is that I experience those 'daily' that talk a 'good game' but haven' the first inkling of truth within their understanding.

    Churches are full of people that wouldn't know Christ if He walked up and introduced Himself.

    Yet they ALL 'believe' they know the 'truth'.

    It is my belief that if they KNEW the truth then they would KNOW what they 'speak of'. Most haven't the first clue as to what they themselves utter.

    I have an example for you and others:

    You and another country are at war with each other.

    One day, a group of soldiers encounters another group of people. They are not 'dressed' as soldiers.

    So they invite the group to sit and eat with them and afterwards, to spend the night in their camp.

    After all the soldiers are sleeping, the group of strangers get up and murder them all in their sleep.

    For you see, while the strangers PRETENDED to be friendly and gained the confidence of the soldiers, in truth, they were soldiers themselves PRETENDING to be something 'different'.

    If the Bible is truth. That Satan will 'lead the world astray', (convince the world that HE is God), then the 'churches' must be 'led astray'.

    The only way that the 'churches' could be led astray is being unable to 'recognize' the enemy.

    I say, if you KNOW the enemy then the enemy cannot HIDE. If you don't know the enemy, how do you know the difference between the enemy and a friend if the enemy PRETENDS to be your friend?

    Satan is the 'Father of Lies'.


  3. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

    Christian Seeker
    I find it kind of scary that many that have responded seem oblivious to the point. That is why I opened this thread. For many seem oblivious to what is happening.

    If you read the Bible, just about everything Christ offered that must take place before His return has been fulfilled.

    That can only mean 'one thing'. The time is near.

    The Bible tells us that if God does not 'cut the days short', Satan would end up leading the ENTIRE WORLD 'astray'. It says He must 'cut the days short' in order to preserve 'His very elect'.

    While the definition of 'very elect' could certainly be debated among those unwilling or unable to recognize it's meaning, that God must 'intervene' in order to 'stop' Satan from fulfilling his goal: to have the entire world worship HIM as God isn't debatable. Not if you accept what the Bible SAYS.

    So, if the 'time is near', certainly Satan doesn't possess the power to turn the world against God 'overnight'.

    That means that he's been 'working on it' for thousands of years.

    So if the 'time is near', the overwhelming majority of those 'claiming' to be TRUE followers have already been led astray. While they 'are true believers', they aren't believers in the TRUTH. Satan has convinced them that he is God. And the ONLY way that is possible is that they DON'T RECOGNIZE him in 'truth'.

    He gives them what they want and they blindly follow him 'as God'.

    The entire concept of 'churches' is designed to lead people down the WRONG path. If you believe differently, then tell me: Which 'church' is leading people down the RIGHT path? Say it right here, right now: Which 'denomination' is the PROPER denomination?

    For it is my experience that they are 'all' man made religions that rarely even closely follow the example we've been offered. They 'talk a good game', (sometimes), yet their 'walk' seems unfruitful.

    Matthew 7:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    Ye shall KNOW them by their 'fruit'. Few there be that find it.

    These are some pretty powerful words if you 'understand' them.


  4. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    I am ASKING if that's what you are saying.
    I'm glad you are not.

    It is no doubt true that there are people in church who say the creed, listen to the Bible being read and would say they believe, without having an actual relationship with God. Believing all the facts and having head knowledge of, is not the same as knowing for yourself because you have a real relationship.
    I've been in that position - keeping a pew warm and yet not really having faith, or belonging to God. And no doubt there are some who still do, or who think that being a Christian is about doing good deeds and going to church. They know, and have access to, the truth, but it remains head knowledge.

    That may be true for some. I would dispute, "most" - we cannot judge people's hearts and do not know.

    I understood what you were saying, but your example does not hold up.
    I don't think that, in a war zone, a group of soldiers would invite complete strangers into their camp without knowing exactly who they were. And I think that soldiers are on guard, or on watch, even at night. I'm not sure that people go to war and turn the lights off at 11.pm and go to sleep - that would be just asking for trouble.

    If you are saying that, in the same way, we have, or invite people into our churches who only wish us harm and will eventually destroy it, that also is not true. It may be true that we can't tell, by outward appearance, whether or not someone belongs to God, but Jesus said that we would know them by their fruits, and to beware of wolves dressed in sheep's clothing.
    We are not to judge, and it is God's church - nothing can destroy it.

    There is a BIG difference between "the world" - people who don't know God, don't believe or want to believe or may be hostile to him - and the true church; those who belong to God, who know him, are his children and who cannot be snatched out of the hands of the Good Shepherd.

    Why do you say that the churches must be led astray from the truth?

    I know the enemy. Not because I have a relationship with him, have been involved in the occult or whatever, but because I know Jesus and I know what Jesus, and the Bible, teaches about the devil.
    I have no intention of sampling the occult so that I can KNOW and recognise the devil.
    As I've asked, would you eat every kind of plant and fungi so that you could identify the poisonous ones, or would you learn to identify mushrooms from toadstools and find out what was good, and bad, to eat so that you didn't have to learn the hard way?

    I KNOW Jesus, and I know to "test the spirits" and check if something - or a group like a cult - really is from God or promoting something else.
  5. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    Apart from being judgemental, did you read the part of my post where I said that I am a sinner?
    I am not perfect and have never claimed to be.
    Knowing God and knowing, and learning, his word, is not easy - but that is how we recognise what is evil and not from God.
  6. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

    Christian Seeker
    What if? What if a 'group' could follow 99 percent 'the truth', but all it takes to be 'led astray' is ONE percent. What if ONE percent 'false teaching' could lead one to follow Satan instead of God? What if Satan can present himself AS God and the only deception is not revealing that he is NOT God? What if Satan 'acts' almost exactly LIKE God. Delivers even MORE sensuality to those that follow him than God would ever offer? Is actually MORE convincing than God Himself.

    For the truth God doesn't have to convince anyone of 'anything'. He is not on 'trial'. One either accepts Him or they don't.

    But Satan wants every living soul on this planet to worship HIM as God. So he is making efforts to subvert us in ways God would never DO. And he is the FATHER of lies.

    And what BETTER way to gain recruits than 'through the churches'? Think about it. How else could ever even remotely accomplish your goal if your goal was to 'be' the God of this world?

    Read the account of 'the garden'. Exactly 'what' did Satan tell Eve that was an outright LIE? Nothing. What he told her was THE TRUTH, according to him.

    It's what he DIDN'T tell her that convinced her to follow HIM instead of God. And in essence, isn't our God what we place our faith in? And it doesn't have to be an outright 'entity'. Satan can convince us to make 'money' our God. Drugs, sex, power, even MURDER. Whatever 'thing' of this world we devote ourselves to IS OUR GOD.

    You see, these aren't 'random' thoughts. They ARE what I consider: Revelation. For most seem oblivious to the very concept of Satan pretending to be God. Yet the Bible is pretty clear about it. IF you read it enough to compare 'lines to lines'.


  7. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

    Christian Seeker
    Matthew 24:24
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Matthew 24:22
    And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Read what it says: EXCEPT those days should be shortened, there should be NO FLESH be saved. Not my words, straight out of the Bible.

    These are in reference to the words Christ spoke about His return.

    Why do you believe Christ is going to return? For what 'purpose'?

    I mean we are told that Christ's Spirit can dwell within us RIGHT NOW. So why 'return'?


  8. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

    Truth is not defined by popular agreement.

    As mentioned, popular agreement does not truth make.

    God is tangible.
  9. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
    The question of your first post was, "Is it necessary to KNOW Satan in order to resist him?"
    My answer; no. Just get to know God and what he says about Satan.
  10. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

    Christian Seeker
    And that is a matter of perspective. Who KNOWS that 'the God' they believe in is actually THE God of the Bible?

    I offer that it's not only possible, but most LIKELY that most people that 'believe' in 'a God' believe in the 'God of this world'.

    I see those that profess to be 'believers' living no differently than the 'rest of the world'. Scrambling to procure what they LOVE and as much of it as humanly possible. Hurting others for the sake of their own lusts. Pretending to do 'good' for the sake of others when in truth they do it for themselves. Talking a good game but producing none of the 'fruit of the Spirit' that we are told TRUE followers WILL produce. Religious LEADERS lying and cheating the congregation and teaching them 'false teachings'. Living like 'Kings' off the backs of the congregation. Pretending to care but expecting PAYMENT for everything that they DO.

    And if ONE of them were to read my words, their response would be: "We shouldn't JUDGE". Oh my.

    So we should just LISTEN and FOLLOW without using our own minds or hearts? Surely that isn't what God created in His own image??????

    Does God require 'blind obedience' to MEN?

    That is exactly the point of this thread. We can clearly see that institutions were created to lead men to place their faith in something OTHER than God. False Gods.

    And who LEADS institutions created to lead men AWAY from the 'truth'? Certainly not THE God of the Bible.

    Who is the God of a 'false institution'? And how does someone recognize that which they do not KNOW?

    If Satan is pretending to BE God, if someone doesn't recognize him, what reason would they have to seek a DIFFERENT God or THE God?

    Look, you cannot tell me that Satan doesn't mimic God. David Koresh was NOT following God nor was he teaching those that followed HIM about the TRUE God.

    Nor was Jim Jones. These men were teaching their followers to follow Satan AS God.

    And they are not exceptions. They were just more extreme than most. They were the 'outrageous examples'. But by no means 'unique' in teaching men to worship Satan 'as God'.

    When people 'flop around on the ground' and then SAY they are 'slain in the spirit', do you BELIEVE them? Would God, the TRUE God have people worship Him in any such manner? Honestly?

    When people speak in gibberish and call it 'tongues of God', do you BELIEVE them? Honestly? What purpose does INANE behavior serve in worshiping God in TRUTH? That is nothing other than personal edification. Trying convince oneself and others that one is 'spiritual'. When in truth, if it IS truly spiritual, it is of a 'spirit' that is more akin to that which is 'sensual' than that which is 'truth'. Appealing to the 'flesh', not the TRUE Spirit.

    So WHERE does the 'inspiration' to DO that which is contrary to the 'truth' come from? Random? Not possible. Everything is 'for a purpose'. Nothing is truly 'random'. Everything is a part of 'design'. And this world belongs to Satan. It is HE that was given dominion over it and that which dwells upon it. The 'flesh' belongs to Satan. The most we can HOPE for is the Salvation of our 'souls'. Why do you 'think' that the body ROTS? It is the 'body' that DIES first. For it is 'corruption'. Dirty. Darkness.

    Yet look at how the WORLD views 'the flesh'. As if IT is more important than the 'soul'. Look at the devotion so many place in the flesh over the 'spirit' or 'soul'. They lust after the 'flesh' like stone cold addicts. They alter it at will as if they are not even satisfied with their own. They put paint on it, ink in it, have it cut and vacuumed and torture themselves in order to show their devotion to it. Yet in the end, it will ALL decompose and become the base elements from which it is formed. Food for worms and maggots. But hey, who wants to even THINK about the 'truth'??? Eh? There is NOTHING righteous about 'the flesh'. Can't be.

    So, how does one claim to be a 'follower of the truth' yet live like everyone else on the planet? How does one claim to be a 'follower of the truth' yet place more faith in money than God? What 'God' would inspire such hypocrisy?


  11. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

    No. Truth is not relative.

    John 8:31-32 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, (32) and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

    There are, indeed, many false believers. But Jesus said you will know them by their fruit.

    I would not say that, because the Bible tells us to judge with a righteous judgment.

    I would never say that either. God gave us an intellect and expects us to use it and we will be held accountable to Him on how we used what He has given us.

    Nope, again, I would never promote such a thing.

    Depends on what "institution" you are referring to.

    Correct, and by God's grace, I don't follow institutions that lead away from God's truth.

    That is why commands us to follow His truth and that is how we know.

    Then that person is not a lover of the truth.

    I never said or implied any such thing.

    Nope, because that is not biblical. And I never said anything like that is.

    You seem to imply I was promoting such a thing. I never did.

    I see nothing but Straw Man fallacies. I never said anything about this stuff you are writing.

    I don't know where on earth you are getting this stuff because none of it was in my comments.
  12. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

    Christian Seeker
    You are incorrect. As far as mankind is concerned, truth is most definitely 'relative'. Ask any two people: 'who or what is God'. I doubt seriously you'll get the same answer from ANY 'two people' other than the most basic terms. You know: 'Creator, Father of Christ, The "I Am". But dig any further and there are probably trillions of answers that all differ from each other.

    This was merely a response. Didn't even try to indicate you had made any comments to indicate these things. Just pointing out how easily Satan has infiltrated 'institutions' calling themselves 'churches'. Most of what I offered were 'questions'. Not once did I indicate you had made any such statements.

    My time is limited so I try to cram as much into my posts as possible. Sometimes addressing multiple issues into individual posts. If I led you to believe that my response was directed to you and you alone, I apologize. It was not. It was offered to all that are following this thread.

    The thread is about 'recognition'. Questioning the ability to recognize something without any intricate KNOWLEDGE of 'that thing'.

    Surgeons use to kill people simply by not washing their hands before surgery. Because of 'hidden micro organisms that they could not yet see, it was often a 'hit or miss' proposition.

    But once these tiny bacteria were discovered, the cause of the infections were RECOGNIZED and then proper precautions could be used to prevent many deaths.

    When the 'concept' was first introduced, many brilliant surgeons scoffed at the idea. Ridiculing those that promoted it.

    And this 'story' isn't about something with hidden MOTIVES. These were just living organisms doing what such things do. No 'hidden agenda'. They were just too small to see until the means was developed to see them.

    Satan has a direct agenda and the means to develop and and insert that which he chooses. He has the ability to influence men to believe all sorts of 'ideas'. He has the ability to mimic God, angels and the Son of God.

    If the 'first God' one is introduced to, or a more favorable one introduced 'later', if one is incapable of recognition, what means do they have to defend themselves against The Devil?

    Faith is a pretty unstable element in the lives of men. They can create 'faith' in just about anything they 'desire'. Especially if that 'thing' brings them 'pleasure'. Including 'gods'. If one believes that which they pray to offers answers, it is real easy to 'worship it' blindly. Build temples to it and carve statues to bow to.

    That is my 'point': if we do not KNOW God, how easy is it to believe Satan is God if he introduces himself as such and offers evidence to back it up.

    The Bible says he can produce 'miracles and lying WONDERS'. Exactly how powerful is he in this regard? Powerful enough to seduce the ENTIRE WORLD? The Bible indicates, no, the Bible SAYS that if God doesn't intervene, Satan WOULD deceive the ENTIRE WORLD.

    So where does that leave us TODAY? To what extent has Satan created 'churches' to lead congregations, WHOLE congregations 'astray'. And the only way this could be possible is by PRETENDING to be God Himself. And the ONLY way this could be possible is that those that have been 'duped' don't recognize the difference between the TRUE God and the false one pretending to be the 'True God'.

    Just look at how many people insist that the 'god' of the Hindus, the god of the Muslims, the God of every denomination of Christianity, ALL gods are basically the 'same god'. Yet each of these 'religions' teaches something completely 'different' than what we are offered in the Bible.

    Obviously 'religion' is a TOOL of the Devil. Influencing men to create their own Gods by 'name' which are nothing other than the 'same god': Satan.

    For THE God of the Bible doesn't teach men 'different things'. He is The God. Not a multiplicity of 'gods'.

    There cannot, in truth, be multiple denominations teaching 'different ways' to follow the 'same God'. There is only ONE way to follow the True God: 'in truth and spirit'. There are not 'many truths', there is only ONE truth.

    Yet so many insist upon 'many truths'. Where did they 'err'? What influences them to believe such a 'thing'? Most of the 'churches' teach that there are many 'different ways' to 'serve God'? Where did this 'idea' come from?

    There is 'nothing new under the Sun'. We don't actually 'create', we merely 'discover'.

    Yeah, we might 'make THINGS', but whatever 'truth exists' has existed since 'creation'. We can only discover it.

    It's when we 'try to create truth' that we stumble. And what would influence us to stumble in such a manner? If there is nothing NEW under the Sun......................

    It is that which caused Eve to stumble on a 'different truth' than that which she had previously been offered by her 'Creator'. That which influenced her to turn her back on the TRUE God and follow another instead. And 'that spirit' never died. It is more prevalent today than ever. An 'influence' that offers men the ability to believe they are their 'own god'. And they flock to this influence that encourages them to place their faith in this 'entity' that is able to appease their 'lusts'.

    People place their 'faith' in 'churches' that tell them what they 'want' to hear. They most often worship whatever 'god' is able to make them FEEL the way they 'want' to FEEL. Not 'truth and spirit'. For 'truth and spirit' can't offer them 'the pleasure' that they are LOOKING for.

    So, how easy is it for Satan to 'be' their God? And if they never MEET the True God, why would they even LOOK for Him or believe Him to be anything different than what they have already found?

    Can a 'corrupt pastor' lead men to the 'proper God'? Ok, anything is possible. But is it LIKELY? Good fruit doesn't come from 'bad trees'.

    And Matthew 7 pretty much 'sums up' my point.


    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
  13. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    The important things of God we mostly agree on. The disagreements are many times over the non game changers so to speak so I do not see it as a major problem.