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Featured How can we resist that which we do not 'know'?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Imagican, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    If I follow the Psalmist I will end up where Jesus said he ended up. In the grave. Jesus saved them when he had arisen in spirit from the cross.

    Matthew:
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    The books left out of Canon explain this event.

    Again, in Matthew:
    31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
    32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    This is not a statement from Jesus, but a question. And explains that his Father wasn't influencing their faith and they died. I see Jesus explaining two different Gods. He is disputing the God of the dead Abraham, Isaac and Jacob followed.

    John:
    31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
    32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
    33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    If Moses didn't get his bread from heaven, then from where? I hope you don't see bread as food loaves for one and truth for the other.

    The Gospel is truth. The only truth to obtain life. It is surrounded by the adversary. Which is why Jesus said:

    If Mark says:
    1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    then why go before the gospel beginning to look for truth or life? Only Christ brought it.

    The Father is not a destroyer. He gives life, not takes it, That's the other god.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I don't see Satan as a being, but an essence of ignorance of the Father (love). Jesus called Peter Satan, and I don't think he meant the adversary. Peter was speaking what the God of the physical showed him (ignorance). But eventually saw what God the Father revealed, and Jesus said that his church would be based on this process (rock). Seeing the truth of the Father. Simon saw one God. Peter saw the true God. This is why the world cannot see the Gospel mysteries, if they don't see the spiritual in it. Peter was never a "rock". Jesus showed the ignorance of the "old man" and the truth revealed to the "born again" man.

    The Father didn't create Satan, sin, evil.. That would make him imperfect. God doesn't make mistakes. Satan does.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Satan cannot create, only corrupt what is created.
    God created independent beings, including us, who choose independence and death.
    Independence is a good thing, and God knowing what would happen, planned for a
    bridge to be made across the wide chasm between God and man. Man is born into a
    sin based world, not connected to the Father in any way. Thanks to the work
    of Jesus, we can return to the father after this life. We have been given the gift of "time"
    which delays judgment of all sin. Without it we would immediately die.

    Job 2:2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" ...
    Zechariah 3:2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! ...
    Matthew 12:26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against ...
    Job 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he ...
    Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan ...
    Revelation 2:13 I know where you live--where Satan has his throne. ...
    1 Timothy 1:20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed
    over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme....

    Job 2:1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and
    Satan also came with them to present himself before him ...

    2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in ...
    2 Corinthians 2:11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we ...
    Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the
    LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him...

    1 Thessalonians 2:18 For we wanted to come to you--certainly I, Paul, did,
    again and again--but Satan blocked our way.

    2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light...
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  4. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    That IS the Orthodox belief. Satan means "enemy" and is the adversary of the Father and his will. He believes he is God. It's an Abrahamic term that looses it's personage in the Gospel and Paul.

    This IS the controversial area. I believe the "non Canon" Christian books over the OT. I cannot accept the Father to create an abomination. And the stories of the Demiurge makes more sense and follows Gospel better than Satan. Jesus spoke and taught in Aramaic. Satan is enemy, and Jesus said he spoke spirit. By the same terms, the Holy Spirit is revered as a man. Typical patriarch thought. Three men making one.

    The Holy Spirit is the feminine. We have Father, Son and Mother. Jesus became the son of both at the Chrism. He accepted his spiritual mother, over his earthly mother, and began his ministry.

    I do not accept todays Orthodox thought, as it was given by the early catholic (small c) theology. Early Christianity taught the Gospel. The Hebrew scriptures were never taught, especially to the Gentiles and others who had already never accepted Judaism.
     
  5. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    What you have offered is completely contrary to the Bible. For the Bible tells us that Satan's GOAL is to 'be' the 'God of this world'. That one day he will set himself up in the temple CLAIMING to be God.

    Satan's most effective tool is HIDING. Pretending to be something other than what he truly is.

    Only a small portion of men will EVER worship Satan outright AS Satan. The overwhelming majority are worshiping him RIGHT NOW 'as God'.

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  6. Noxot

    Noxot tohu and bohu Supporter

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    if we are a "dwelling place" then if evil reigns in us satan does too and he sets himself up as God. but in salvation we see that God is our temple/dwelling place

    Rev 21:22 (YLT)
    And a sanctuary I did not see in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its sanctuary, and the Lamb,


    so all of reality is the "dwelling place", each soul being a microcosm. the kingdom of heaven is fellowship of souls and God.
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The reason you didn't quote scripture is becasue it doesn't fit what you claim very well.

    Ephesians 2:2
    You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.

    John 12
    31“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

    35 Bible verses about Satan
     
  8. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Jesus cast the ruler of this world out of man. It was time. The ruler deceived man long enough (OT).

    Satan is a guiding thought, nothing more. Guiding man to see him and his physical world over the Father and his spiritual truth. Peter wasn't Satan, his words spoken to Christ was of the thoughts of a physical god.

    Matthew:
    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    It was clear that Peter was ignorant (of spirit) in his response. "Ignorance is the mother of all evil"- Gospel of Philip
     
  9. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I can show you scripture over and over. But you will simply say that it is not scripture. You want the Bible to be truth. When you become a follower of Christ, you seek Christ. If the Holy Spirit was to lead you (to those scriptures that has truth and answers), you rebuke her and say "men tell me not to go with you".

    This is poverty (of truth).

    Thomas:
    Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

    Luke:
    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    John:
    56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    Thomas says the same thing in a more complete understanding of both Luke and John.
     
  10. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    No, the REASON that often do not quote scripture is that I assume that if someone is responding on a 'Christian' Forum, they have already read the Bible to a basic degree that I shouldn't NEED to quote scripture.

    But anytime you have a question about where to find scripture that offers what I speak of, just ask and I'll gladly direct you.

    So far as Satan's 'goal', you can find scripture that clearly demonstrates the answer in the book of Revelation. There is clearly states that Satan will 'set himself up in the TEMPLE' to be worshiped AS God. Exactly 'what' the 'temple' is isn't directly referenced. But it is my opinion that 'the temple' will be the 'churches' of this world. Whether the 'temple' will be rebuilt in Israel???? Who knows. It is possible.

    But that Satan wants to BE the 'God of this world' is referenced throughout the Bible. Satan IS the God of this world. And those that have chosen to accept and follow THE God and Father of Christ are commanded to 'separate themselves' from 'this world'.

    Satan has YET to be 'separated' from mankind. That doesn't take place until the 'end of this world as we know it'.

    And I find it amusing that you accuse me of not quoting scripture. You have been reading my posts for years. So you KNOW I post scripture when I believe I need to or if anyone asks.

    Let me ask this: What sort of true follower can actually follow if they don't KNOW what to follow? And what kind of fool would follow some 'other man or men' without any understanding or knowledge of 'what to follow'?

    It is my firm opinion that the Bible is the inspired word of God. So, in order to have even a tiny understanding of God or His Son, it is crucial that we not only read the Bible, but study it.

    The last thing that anyone should do is simply follow what someone else 'says' without any knowledge of what we are offered in the Bible.

    Yes, it is possible that God could reveal ALL truth to anyone without ever having heard of The Bible. But it's not LIKELY to happen. That is 'why' we HAVE the Bible. That is why God 'inspired' the Bible. So that He doesn't NEED to reveal 'all truth' to anyone. The Bible offers as MUCH truth as anyone could possibly NEED. More truth than most will ever make the effort to discover.

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Again, no scripture cited to support your claims.
    The old saying, when you
    Ass U Me
    things, you fail.
     
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Nothing is clear in Revelation.
     
  13. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Praise God that you are now in the light.
    Maybe, for you, "following Satan", or walking in darkness, WAS part of your walk. Not that God said, "I'll make him a follower of Satan, then he will understand what it means to resist Satan", but that you were allowed to follow that path, for a while, so as to be a blessing to others who also find themselves on that path.

    But each of us comes to God in a different way and has a different path to faith - and it's not necessary to experience all of them before we can find the truth. Otherwise, a person would have to become a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, JW, Moonie, Mormon etc etc so that they could then KNOW to reject these things.

    Practically speaking, no one would then become a Christian before the age of 40, or so - after they had experienced everything else. Some do indeed spend much time searching and are reluctant to believe the Bible. But that doesn't mean we all have to. I'm not going to smoke/drink/eat arsenic in order to be able to resist these things.

    I don't know you, but I don't believe so.
    Somewhere along the line, you probably made a choice to get involved with this. Maybe God allowed it, for whatever reason, but I don't think you HAD to go down that route. Thousands of people become Christians without first sampling the occult so that they can effectively recognise, and resist, the devil.

    Jesus was with God before the world was created, as the divine Word; the second person of the Trinity. He was there when Satan was created as an angel of light, he was there when Satan rebelled and was thrown out of heaven, he was there when Adam and Eve were tempted. Of course Jesus knew about Satan.

    I don't recognise, or have experienced, drinking poison; but I can resist trying it to find out what it's like.

    Satan can't pretend to be God.
    God IS love, and light; Satan is darkness.

    If a person doesn't know God and the voice of Jesus, the Good Shepherd, they will likely believe any one/thing that says "I am God"; they won't know any different.
    The answer is NOT to know Satan, but to get to know God and his word - thoroughly.

    Jesus says that his sheep recognise his voice and do not respond to the voice of the hired hand, John 10.

    If they have never been taught about God, then no doubt.
    In Scripture, those who follow God and are in God, and those who follow the world and worship the things of the world; are completely different.
    We are told not to love the world, 1 John 2:15-17, and not to conform to the world, Romans 12:1-2. We are also told to put God first, seek his kingdom, Matthew 6:33, and that we cannot serve God and money/material possessions. Anyone who doesn't know this, or chooses not to live that way, will not KNOW God. And if someone doesn't KNOW God, they will be led astray by anyone who claims to be him.

    No, you just need to know Jesus and believe him when he warns against the evil one.
     
  14. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    Really? So we have a book of the Bible that has nothing of substance to offer? Nothing that we CAN understand?

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I'll be happy to provide at least two
    explanations for any passage of your
    choosing.
     
  16. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    He warns against the 'evil one' so that we can KNOW of his existence. But if we don't RECOGNIZE the 'evil one', how then can we resist?

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  17. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    When an agent of the US Treasury department wants to identify counterfeit currency, they exhaustively study the true currency. They don't study the counterfeit, because you know the false currency by knowing what the true currency looks like. You know what is counterfeit by knowing what is true.

    God is truth. He is the one to know and focus on, to identify false teachings and persons.
     
  18. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    Please allow me to be 'perfectly clear' in what I'm speaking of.

    It is my FIRM belief that most if not ALL 'churches' are institutions of the Devil not God.

    At the moment Christ died, the curtain in the temple was rent in twain. And we are instructed that God would NO LONGER DWELL in a temple made by the hands of men.

    Name ONE 'church' that was not created by the HAND OF SOME MAN?

    Men have even altered the definition of the word 'church' from it's original meaning. Indicating that it means 'house of God'. When in truth is nothing short of a 'temple' plain and simple. Not 'a church'. For there is only one 'true church' and that is the 'body of Christ'. Not a building where people gather.

    Institution is a tool of Satan. God doesn't deal with 'institution'. He is The King. He is not looking for people to create institutions to place their faith in. He wants us to place our faith in Him.

    The Bible says that if God doesn't 'cut the days short', Satan would lead 'all' men astray. Even God's 'very elect'.

    So, unless something happens and ALL churches disappear, for the Bible to be correct, then the 'churches' have already been 'led' astray.

    At this point in time, there may be 'only' God's very elect remaining on the proper path.

    You know guys and gals, the Bible offers the example of at least THREE of God's 'very elect' being led astray as they 'walked with Christ' in the FLESH.

    One betrayed Him to his DEATH. Another denied even knowing him THREE TIMES. And another denied his very identity when in His presence. And these three men were directly 'chosen' by Christ to be His followers.

    And when Peter tried to convince Christ 'not to fulfill his purpose', what were Christ's words to him? "Satan get behind me". These words he spoke to Peter.

    So if Satan had this kind of an influence on 'God's chosen', what sort of influence do you suppose he has upon US?

    So this is the premise of the thread. How do we resist that which we don't even recognize? he 'easy' is it for Satan to offer us the FEELINGS we are looking for in order to convince us to worship him AS God? And if we don't recognize the difference how then are we able to resist?

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    If we know God and recognise good, evil is the opposite of that. Everything that draws us away from God, leads us to trust/worship someone/thing else and dishonours God is not from God.

    Or are you suggesting that all Christians have to sign up for the occult, accept witchcraft etc before they can recognise it?
    Like I say, would you eat poison so that you could recognise it, or would you learn, and read about, poisonous plants/toadstools/class A drugs so that you could watch out for them and not consume them by mistake?
     
  20. Aseyesee

    Aseyesee Well-Known Member

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    God calls light out of darkness, as he calls every son out of Egypt.
     
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