How can We Know if We Know Him?

[Guojing]

Actually, instead of jumping all over the Bible on your whim; how about we limit our discussion in relation to the OP. Have you read the OP? It's an interesting topic. I found it interesting enough to start a thread on the subject. I propose that we try something different. I propose that we discuss the topic of the thread.

What say ye?

Sure, so my very first reply to your post is this

John is preaching the gospel of the circumcision to the Jews.

In 1 John, you will never find the following teachings by the apostle Paul

1. Salvation is by grace thru faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross alone.
2. Jews and gentiles being equal in the Body of Christ.

Instead, you will find lots of teachings like what you have stated in your OP, that obeying the commandments, and sinning not, are necessary for salvation.

 

[HARK!]

Its not difficult to understand, you just need to let the words say what they are saying.

I believe in the whole Bible. I don't chop of the opening statements of Paul's letters to frame the letter in a way that would contradict Yahshua and even YHWH himself.

Yahshua is the word. His word stands over any of your misunderstandings.

SOoooo.... Back on topic!

 

[Guojing]

I believe in the whole Bible. I don't chop of the opening statements of Paul's letters to frame the letter in a way that would contradict Yahshua and even YHWH himself.

Yahshua is the word. His word stands over any of your misunderstandings.

SOoooo.... Back on topic!

I understand, its the same with Israel back in Moses days, as stated in Numbers 12

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

If there are Jews who resisted the authority of Moses over them, under Law, it is understandable there will be many in the Body of Christ who will resist the authority of Paul over them (Romans 11:13)

 

[HARK!]

Salvation is by grace thru faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross alone.

That doctrine contradicts Yahshua's blood brother. James knew Yahshua almost better than anyone.

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:17
Thus, also, is faith, if it should not have works: it is dead by itself.

(CLV) Ja 2:18
But someone will be declaring, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from the works and I shall be showing you my faith by my works.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

(CLV) Ja 2:26
For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead.

I'll trust James over doctrine.

Do you reject the teachings of both James and John?

 

[Guojing]

That doctrine contradicts Yahshua's blood brother. James knew Yahshua almost better than anyone.

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:17
Thus, also, is faith, if it should not have works: it is dead by itself.

(CLV) Ja 2:18
But someone will be declaring, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from the works and I shall be showing you my faith by my works.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

(CLV) Ja 2:26
For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead.

I'll trust James over doctrine.

Do you reject the teachings of both James and John?

Oh, so now I am clearer why we have this disagreement. You believe that works are also required, together with faith, for salvation.

Yes, I agree with you that if you want to find out where in scriptures where it states that works are also necessary for salvation, you can find them in the letters of James and John and even Peter.

If you want to instead find out where in scriptures where is states that Salvation "is by grace thru faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross alone", you will go to Paul's epistles to the Body of Christ contained in Romans to Philemon.

Countless debates have been made over which one is true, and depending on which side you are taking, you just need to stand firm in those respective passages, whether James, Cephas, John or Paul.

Because both sides are sticking firm on their passages, the debate never converge.

But from this long discussion we have from each other, can you now see an alternative way of viewing this debate, again from Galatians 2:7-9?

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Both sides are speaking truth, but we must rightly divide the word of truth to understand why they do not contradict.

James, Cephas, and John is preaching truth for Israel during the coming Tribulation, in the age to come.

Paul is preaching truth for the Body of Christ in this period, the but now time period

Do you now also recognized, from Acts 21:20-25, that James never intended the gentiles to be under the Law, but only the Jews who believed? So you are incorrect there, James only intended the Law of Moses for Jews who believed.

 

[HARK!]

James never intended the gentiles to be under the Law, but only the Jews who believed?

No one was ever to be under the law; and James never used that expression. If we are obedient to the law; we are not under the curses of the law.

"Under the law"

Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.

It's found 11 times in his writings.

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

==================================================
(CLV) Ro 6:14
For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

Which law?

Paul mentions at least 8 of them in this letter:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

I suppose that if sin is lording over you; then you are under The Law of Sin.

(CLV) Ro 6:15
What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!

Paul is telling us in no uncertain terms that we may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

(CLV) Ro 7:7
What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."

Surely The Law of Sin doesn't prohibit coveting.

The Law of YHWH does.
==================================================
(CLV) 1Co 9:20
And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;


The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.



(CLV) 1Co 9:21
to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

"Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.


(CLV) 1Co 9:22
I became as weak to the weak, that I should be gaining the weak. To all have I become all, that I should undoubtedly be saving some.

Apart from the Judaeans the nations didn't even have the Torah
That said, just a few verses prior in this letter; Paul makes mention of the Torah:

Some misunderstand this passage.Paul was not a lawless crowd pleaser.

(CLV) Ga 1:10
For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ.

Acts 17:22-31 is an example of how Paul would put this behavior into practice.


(CLV) 1Co 9:
9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You shall not muzzle the threshing ox.Not for oxen is the care of God!" 10 Or is He undoubtedly saying it because of us? Because of us, for it was written that the plower ought to be plowing in expectation, and the thresher to partake of his expectation."

HE'S SAYING THAT THE TORAH WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE OF US?


(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

==================================================

(CLV) Ga 3:19
What, then, is the law? On behalf of transgressions was it added, until the Seed should come to Whom He has promised, being prescribed through messengers in the hand of a mediator.

What law was added to what? Transgressions of what? Abraham had the law. The penal code for the land of Israel was added. Levitical priesthood was added. After the Seed (Yahshua) came; the Judaeans were exiled from the land, for rejecting YHWH's word in the flesh. The High Priesthood was transferred to Yahshua; as it is written.

(CLV) Ga 3:20
Now there is no Mediator of one. Yet God is One.

(CLV) Ga 3:21
Is the law, then, against the promises of God? May it not be coming to that! For if a law were given that is |able to vivify, really, righteousness were out of law.

YHWH's law is not against grace.

(CLV) Ga 3:22
But the scripture locks up all together under sin,

...because all have sinned.

The Law of Sin

that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Obedience to YHWH's Law is the fruit of faith.

(CLV) Ga 3:23
Now before the coming of faith we were garrisoned under law, being locked together for the faith about to be revealed.

If we actually believe Yahshua; we will follow his example of obedience.


(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected
==================================================

(CLV) Ga 4:4
Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law,

(CLV) Ga 4:5
that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son.

Reclaiming them from what?

Paul makes it clear that those who are under the law, are those who have broken the law:

(CLV) Ro 1:5
through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================
(CLV) Ga 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?

Paul is asking why you would want to sin, knowing what YHWH's judgements will be.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

How can you break YHWH's laws being led by the spirit?

Let's look at this verse in a little more context.

(CLV) Ga 5:16
Now I am saying, Walk in spirit, and you should under no circumstances be consummating the lust of the flesh.

What is the lust of the flesh?

Here are some examples:

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.


Yahshua set an example of how for us to behave in a way that is in the Father's will.

(CLV) Ro 8:29
that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.

(CLV) Jn 16:7
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, the consoler will not be coming to you. Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you.

(CLV) Jn 16:8
And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning
righteousness and concerning judging:

(CLV) Jn 16:9
concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

No one was ever to be under the law; and James never used that expression.

That Acts 21 passage has the answers you are looking for, for some reason, you refuse to consider that passage

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

And if that is not enough, here is what Paul stated of the reputation of Ananias in Acts 22, which is already so many years after the cross

12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

You are still unwilling to accept that Jews who believed in Christ as their Messiah during the time in Acts, still needed to follow the Law of Moses?

 

[HARK!]

So you are incorrect there, James only intended the Law of Moses for Jews who believed.

Then why was Paul preaching the law in Rome?

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

As a matter of fact, Paul teaches almost exclusively from the TaNaK. You know, the law and the prophets that Yahshua said would stand longer than heaven and earth.

Ignore Yahshua if you will. I follow him.

So did Paul.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah didn't practice lawlessness, nor did Paul, nor do I, nor did Paul teach lawlessness.

Again we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Guojing]

Then why was Paul preaching the law in Rome?

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

As a matter of fact, Paul teaches almost exclusively from the TaNaK. You know, the law and the prophets that Yahshua said would stand longer than heaven and earth.

Ignore Yahshua if you will. I follow him.

So did Paul.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah didn't practice lawlessness, nor did Paul, nor do I, nor did Paul teach lawlessness.

Again we will have to agree to disagree.

Let me be clear about what you believe.

After all the disagreements you had with me about whether there can be more than one good news contained in scripture, you still believe that salvation now, is by faith and works, according to James 2?

 

[HARK!]

That Acts 21 passage has the answer you are looking forward, for some reason, you refuse to consider that passage

We covered this on page 3. You refused to watch the video.

Yet you keep repeating the same tired old argument.

The video smartly refutes your misguided assumptions; but it seems that you are not interested in hearing anything, outside of your echo chamber.

 

[Guojing]

We covered this on page 3. You refused to watch the video.

Yet you keep repeating the same tired old argument.

The video smartly refutes your misguided assumptions; but it seems that you are not interested in hearing anything, outside of your echo chamber.

I never said Paul was against the Law in the first place.

I have watched the video and its not addressing our exchange over that passage.

 

[HARK!]

Let me be clear about what you believe.

After all the disagreements you had with me about whether there can be more than one good news contained in scripture, you still believe that salvation now, is by faith and works, according to James 2?

Let me be clear about what you understand. Do you understand the difference between "alone," and "together with?"

 

[Guojing]

Let me be clear about what you understand. Do you understand the difference between "alone," and "together with?"

Yes, I believe salvation is by faith alone in the finished work of Christ on the cross, as stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4

 

[HARK!]

Yes, I believe salvation is by faith alone in the finished work of Christ on the cross, as stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4

Paul makes no mention of "faith alone" in those verses; but if you wish to reject the teaching if James, brother of Messiah, head of the church, and put your trust in a dead faith; then we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Guojing]

Paul makes no mention of "faith alone" in those verses; but if you wish to reject the teaching if James, brother of Messiah, head of the church, and put your trust in a dead faith; then we will have to agree to disagree.

1 Cor 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

You are saying that Paul is also thinking of works when he was explaining the gospel that saves, in that passage?

As for James, well, let's just say that if I happen to be in the Tribulation period, which James was writing about in his letter to the 12 tribes, I better believe him, that I need to believe in Christ, plus do the many other works required, such as not taking the Mark of the Beast, and to feed and give shelter to the Jews who are being persecuted by the anti-Christ (Matthew 25:41-46)

 

[Gary K]

It came from reading Galatians 2:7-9 and Acts 21:20-25 in the KJV, and let the words say what they are saying, instead of changing them to say what you want them to say.

Every time I bring in Galatians 2:7-9, people are always replying with Galatians 1:8-9, and whenever I point out what happened in Acts 21:20-25 in reply, they go silent.

You think that's because I don't have answers for you? I've had long discussions with many MADists and it always goes to the same end. You guys always end up asserting that God has changed. The problem with that is that God said He changes not in the OT and the NT says:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

It was Jesus in His preincarnate form who led the Israelites out of Egypt, met Moses at the burning bush, talked as a friend to Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, inspired all the prophets of the OT. He told the Jews He was the I AM and they wanted to kill Him for making Himself God. Jesus never changes in any way. Therefore He doesn't change the way He deals with people. He is just, not unjust. He is fair, not unfair.

Your theology requires both the Father and the Son to change. but scripture absolutely denies that idea. And it's because God changes not that we can trust Him to always keep His word. MAD requires God to be like man, but God is not like man. MAD produces a manlike God. That's a frightening thought. Why? Because if God changes we have not built upon a rock, but on shifting sands. If you want to do that, that's your choice. It will never be mine

 

[HARK!]

1 Cor 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Nope, nothing about "faith alone" there either.

You'll find it nowhere in scripture. It's man made doctrine, dogma; but you can keep searching, if you will.

Personally I think that your time would be better spent studying James' epistle.

 

[Guojing]

Nope, nothing about "faith alone" there either.

You'll find it nowhere in scripture. It's man made doctrine, dogma; but you can keep searching, if you will.

Personally I think that your time would be better spent studying James' epistle.

So to confirm your salvation doctrine, you believe that salvation now, is by faith and works, according to James 2?

Is that correct?

 

[Guojing]

You think that's because I don't have answers for you? I've had long discussions with many MADists and it always goes to the same end. You guys always end up asserting that God has changed. The problem with that is that God said He changes not in the OT and the NT says:
It was Jesus in His preincarnate form who led the Israelites out of Egypt, met Moses at the burning bush, talked as a friend to Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, inspired all the prophets of the OT. He told the Jews He was the I AM and they wanted to kill Him for making Himself God. Jesus never changes in any way. Therefore He doesn't change the way He deals with people. He is just, not unjust. He is fair, not unfair.

Your theology requires both the Father and the Son to change. but scripture absolutely denies that idea. And it's because God changes not that we can trust Him to always keep His word. MAD requires God to be like man, but God is not like man. MAD produces a manlike God. That's a frightening thought. Why? Because if God changes we have not built upon a rock, but on shifting sands. If you want to do that, that's your choice. It will never be mine

That verse is frequently used out of context.

God commanded physical circumcision in Genesis 17

God no longer required physical circumcision for us now (Galatians 5:2)

There was a time when we were not allowed to eat meat, followed by us being allowed to eat meat, after the flood, but no blood, and now all animal is clean for eating (Acts 10).

There are changes on how God deal with man, that you can find throughout the Bible,

I think what you meant is that God doesn't change in his character, he is always love, always good etc etc. That all of us can agree.

 

[Guojing]

Nope, nothing about "faith alone" there either.

You'll find it nowhere in scripture. It's man made doctrine, dogma; but you can keep searching, if you will.

Personally I think that your time would be better spent studying James' epistle.

So to confirm your salvation doctrine, you believe that salvation now, is by faith and works, according to James 2?

Is that correct?