how can we deliver a brother or sister who is bewitched?

[W2L]

Paul in Galatians refers to those who are bewitched into thinking that there are inequalities in Christ. Galatians 3

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

?

 

[W2L]

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Sorry. I accidentally posted before i wrote my re. Then i decided i didnt want to comment at all.

 

[Hieronymus]

Sorry John, but this is plain wrong. I have done deliverance from demonic powers thousands of times in the last 40 or so years, and always on Christians.
That means I cast the demons out of them, -just like Jesus commanded.
Even though a Christian has the Holy Spirit, he can still have demons within him.

I don't think / i really doubt that is possible.

 

[Francis Drake]

I have indeed. I thought all believers were able to discern evil spirits, but alas I am wrong. Perhaps each one does have the potential but for some reason don't? I am sensitive anyway so perhaps that is part of it... thousands? naw. I don't dwell where they do I guess. Believers can be OPPRESSED but not POSSESSED because GOD POSSESSES believers!

The debate between being possessed or oppressed by demons is completely fatuous. Yet it is raised again and again as if it makes a jot of difference to the demonised Christian.
The worst part of the debate is that it leads Christians who clearly have major problems to completely ignore the realm of the demonic.
Such false theology invariably leaves the believer bound up for years.

But whichever name it goes by, the end result is the same, Christians having demons within their temple (body) that Jesus commanded us to cast out.

To make the possessed/oppressed point clear though, lets look at an analogy.
At one time I owned several houses which I rented out to various tenants.
Despite having my name on the title deeds, these houses were in the possession of other people.
Despite being bought and paid for by the blood of Christ, there are frequently other tenants claiming possession of Christians' lives.

 

[Francis Drake]

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

There is no biblical example of a christian being possessed. Just saying.

None of these verses state that Christians cannot have demons dwelling within them!
Despite these verses which state that we have overcome the world, we know that Christians still get sick, and they also get into various sins.
Likewise they can have demons dwelling within them. That's why Jesus told the disciples to both heal the sick and to cast out demons.

 

[Francis Drake]

Good verses... believers cannot be POSSESSED by the devil or his minions because God seals them (us) until the day of redemption and no man takes them away. Also, we are clothed in the righteousness of God, which would be impossible as demon possessed. There are a 100 verses or so about being sealed by God once we believe.

Ephesians 4:30 ESV
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13 ESV /
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:13-14 ESV
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:9 ESV
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

2 Corinthians 1:22 ESV
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 8:16 ESV
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Acts 2:38 ESV
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:1-47 ESV
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. ...

Hebrews 2:10 ESV
For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.

2 Timothy 2:19 ESV
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Ephesians 1:1-23 ESV
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, ...

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 ESV
And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Despite the shear quantity of verses you quote, not one of them states that Christians cannot have demons within them.
Also there is little point Jesus commanding the disciples or commanding us to cast out demons, if demons can't touch believers.
And I have yet to find an atheist who wants demons to be cast out.

 

[celestialpearl]

While the bible doesn't state that believers cannot be demon possessed, there is no evidence of a christian ever being possessed in the bible. Also, if you take into context biblical truths, such as the previous verse I mentioned and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the nature of possession (controlling thoughts and actions of the afflicted) it's seems ludicrous (to me) that God would allow a demon to dwell in a believer along side himself.

 

[Francis Drake]

While the bible doesn't state that believers cannot be demon possessed, there is no evidence of a christian ever being possessed in the bible. Also, if you take into context biblical truths, such as the previous verse I mentioned and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the nature of possession (controlling thoughts and actions of the afflicted) it's seems ludicrous (to me) that God would allow a demon to dwell in a believer along side himself.

Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence!

ie. Scripture doesn't bother making that differentiation between a believer and a non believer because at that time, it was well known that anyone can be demonised.

Consider this-
Luke13v10And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.
Note the sickness was caused by a spirit ie. a demon.

12When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.” 13And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God. 14But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.” 15But the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him? 16“And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?”
Note that it was a daughter of Abraham who was bound by this demon!

The reason that there is no specific treatise on whether a believer could or could not be demonised, is because what Jesus had been doing throughout his ministry already proved that point.

And just to be clear, both Jesus and the apostles defined the sons (daughters) of Abraham as those who were born of faith, not by flesh. ie, the saints.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't think / i really doubt that is possible.

It is possible. I cannot vouch for any poster / member here,
but
it was well known Corrie ten Boom delivered many 'Christians' (once a whole congregation at one time) from demonic oppresion - they were not even aware the demons were present until after they were delivered. Many Christians never find out they are oppressed by demons..... and things get worse if they are given drugs instead of deliverance , yes, worse and worse.... every day....

 

[Francis Drake]

It is possible. I cannot vouch for any poster / member here,
but
it was well known Corrie ten Boom delivered many 'Christians' (once a whole congregation at one time) from demonic oppresion - they were not even aware the demons were present until after they were delivered. Many Christians never find out they are oppressed by demons..... and things get worse if they are given drugs instead of deliverance , yes, worse and worse.... every day....

Amen to that.
I have witnessed many similar situations.

I was at an event decades ago where a wonderful deliverance ministry lady was teaching.
She first taught the scriptural principles with many real examples from the helpers who came with her.

Then prior to actually casting demons out she invited those who didn't already know the Lord to make a commitment, a few coming forward.
She then started to give some words of knowledge regarding several who still had not acknowledged Christ. She was very accurate even naming where they had come from and who was with them, again more came forward.

Finally she started to call out a number of witches who had also come in. Prophetically she invited them forward to repent, with no response.
Finally she addressed them directly pointing at then with a warning from the Lord. Suddenly a number of shrieking and cursing women stood up and literally ran along the knees of the seated congregation and fled out of the meeting hall.

Needless to say, she had everybody's attention riveted solidly from that point on.

She did some mass deliverance dealing with common demons. After that she cast out countless other demons by word of knowledge.

It was a life changing event for many people, including myself, even though I had been involved with deliverance prior to that.

 

[celestialpearl]

To be clear, I stated that I believe a christian can't be possessed, I never said they couldn't be oppressed. I concede that there isn't a biblical cut and dry answer that can be found. I still don't believe a christian can be possessed, but having stated my reasons why, I won't try to dissuade anyone else from the belief. I would find it far more harmful to cause strife between members of the body, than to hold a different belief on that matter. Blessings!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To be clear, I stated that I believe a christian can't be possessed, I never said they couldn't be oppressed.

That's okay.
When someone is in church, or outside , and sees 10 who are under the control of demons,

it doesn't really make any difference to their lives

if it is said that they are possessed or oppressed. Semantics will neither hurt them nor help them.

 

[Hieronymus]

It is possible. I cannot vouch for any poster / member here,
but
it was well known Corrie ten Boom delivered many 'Christians' (once a whole congregation at one time) from demonic oppresion - they were not even aware the demons were present until after they were delivered.

Yeah, that sounds really credible...
Netherlands of course... : facepalm:
Sorry for being cynical..

Many Christians never find out they are oppressed by demons..... and things get worse if they are given drugs instead of deliverance , yes, worse and worse.... every day....

I don't believe every ailment is caused by demons.
Most are not i.m.o.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't believe every ailment is caused by demons.

Jesus did not believe it either.
I don't know many in person who believe it either.

So what ?

 

[Hieronymus]

Jesus did not believe it either.
I don't know many in person who believe it either.

So what ?

So what if it's an obsession for supernatural things and part of a religious power trip?
i dunno..

 

[drjean]

Despite the shear quantity of verses you quote, not one of them states that Christians cannot have demons within them.
Also there is little point Jesus commanding the disciples or commanding us to cast out demons, if demons can't touch believers.
And I have yet to find an atheist who wants demons to be cast out.

Goodness. Yes I guess it might take logic and critical thinking.... let's go this route: Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand. Now, a believer is POSSESSED by the Holy Spirit, right? AND GOD says no man will ever take them out of my hand... so how will satan do that to a believer, as he is not stronger than God?
Colossians 1:13 For HE has rescued us from the dominion of darkness.

 

[Francis Drake]

Yeah, that sounds really credible...
Netherlands of course... : facepalm:
Sorry for being cynical..I don't believe every ailment is caused by demons.
Most are not i.m.o.

Nobody is saying all ailments are caused by demons, but the general attitude in the church today is that demons have no effect on Christians.

Go through the book of Matthew line by line and you will see that Jesus did as much casting out of demons, as he did just healing people. And a fair proportion of those demons were for sickness.

 

[Francis Drake]

Goodness. Yes I guess it might take logic and critical thinking.... let's go this route: Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand. Now, a believer is POSSESSED by the Holy Spirit, right? AND GOD says no man will ever take them out of my hand... so how will satan do that to a believer, as he is not stronger than God?
Colossians 1:13 For HE has rescued us from the dominion of darkness.

The best place to learn about spiritual warfare is to look at the OT where the physical battles parallel the spiritual battles.
Thus when God told the Israelites to go and possess the land, we find a continual saga of compromise which always resulted in Israel's enemies remaining in possession of parts of their inheritance.

This happened despite the fact that the Lord had redeemed them from slavery and entered a covenant of blood with them!

A good example is in Numbers33v55, but to put it in context lets start at verse 50Then the LORD spoke to Moses ......................51“Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you cross over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 52then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their stone images, and destroy all their molten images and demolish all their high places; 53and you shall take possession of the land .......................................
..................55‘But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall come about that those whom you let remain of them will become as barbs in your eyes and as thorns in your sides, and they will trouble you in the land in which you live. 56‘And as I plan to do to them, so I will do to you.’”

When we first get saved, it is merely the start of the taking possession of our personal spiritual land.
By personal land I refer to all areas of thought word and deed, this being a natural process of maturing and bringing every thought captive to Christ.
Prior to surrendering to Christ, we all walked as obedience sons of Satan (Eph2), thus enabling various demons to inhabit areas of our life. At the point of conversion, many of those demons flee, but many remain behind and still control our thoughts and actions.

That's why we must do what the Lord said and drive them out so we possess all our land.

To understand the outworking of this see what Paul says in 2Cor12.
7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Paul, a Pharisee, knew the OT scriptures back to front, so here we see him paraphrasing Numbers33v55.
NT, -there was given to me a thorn in the flesh,
OT, -barbs in your eyes and as thorns in your sides

As can be seen, the thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan, ie. a fallen angel or demon.
Three times Paul cried out that God would remove it, but it doesn't happen. Why didn't God remove the demon?
In simple terms, the Lord had invested his Grace in Paul, and that Grace meant that Paul had the same Holy Spirit power that Christ had, only Paul had yet to grasp that fact.

So just as the Israelites were commanded to drive the inhabitants out of their inheritance, we too are commanded to drive out any foreign inhabitants from our land, our bodies.
If we don't do it, the Lord won't do it for us!

 

[drjean]

Well indeed that is a great representation of being oppressed for surely a demon possessing Paul would have prevented him from having any ministry.

I think God may have allowed satan to hinder Paul because it kept him "humble" since he obviously came from being quite high and mighty in his endeavor, sanctioned by the brass, to seek out and kill Christians...it also was a constant reminder to him (Paul) I think about the road to Damascus meet-up with Christ, losing his vision entirely. I'm sure it was something Paul spoke with Jesus about in the 3 years in the desert with Him.

ONE of the main differences between words written/spoken to the Jews is that the parameters changed for those who believed after Christ's resurrection. HE fulfilled The Law. OT prophets were only possessed by the Spirit for special works. Believers since Christ are possessed by the Spirit ALL THE TIME, sealed UNTIL THE DAY of redemption. Sealed.