How can unregenerate people worship God?

[Hammster]

I wrote: Ever heard of the drawing and prompting of the Holy Spirit? But it is resistible!

You replied: Why is that not considered violating man's free will?

I said: That's a straw man fallacy.

Now you say: You have provided ZERO evidence. Your charge does not hold up.

Now my reply to you:

Doing a send-up of what I wrote to another poster about ZERO evidence, is hardly an adequate response to what I stated.

In case you are ignorant of the nature of a straw man fallacy, here's a brief explanation:

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

​

Yours was a straw man fallacy because you did not address the content of what I wrote: Ever heard of the drawing and prompting of the Holy Spirit? But it is resistible!

How could that be violating a person's free will when it is resistible? This sounds very much like you are not interested in a serious discussion. If you carry on with this type of semantic game, I'm not interested in further discussion as you don't seem to be serious.

There are multitudes of Aussies who need a Saviour and I'll have more challenging and transparent conversations with them.

Oz

If he didn't want to be drawn or promoted, then the fact that God does so regardless of his desire is violating his free will. I don't know why you don't see it that way.

 

[Hammster]

Oz, FG doesn't think faith is a gift. I doubt you'll challenge him on that, though. Somehow, you'll give him a pass even though your views are just as different from his as the are from Calvinism.

 

[shturt678s]

Oz, FG doesn't think faith is a gift. I doubt you'll challenge him on that, though. Somehow, you'll give him a pass even though your views are just as different from his as the are from Calvinism.

Oz, FG, and lower paygrade Jack doesn't think faith is a gift, however I strongly feel "salvation" is a gift where faith is the means of the gift.

Two-bit department,

Old Jack

 

[FreeGrace2]

I doubt you'll challenge Oz on that, though. Somehow, you'll give him a pass even though your views are just as different from his as the are from Calvinism.

We're both aware of our differences. So what?

The issue of this thread is how can unregenerate people worship God. I like to stick with the issue, and not pull out red herrings, or equivocate, or dodge whatever questions come my way.

It'a always best to focus on the thread one is posting in. If he or anyone else asks me a question, or challenges me on anything, I will surely answer.

I think you just like seeing non-calvinists argue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He was only interested in making assertions, with ZERO evidence from Scripture, Arminians or Calvinists.

Doesn't make for a scintillating discussion, does it?

Oz

Nope. Not at all.

I liked your comment:
"This sounds very much like you are not interested in a serious discussion. If you carry on with this type of semantic game, I'm not interested in further discussion as you don't seem to be serious. "

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oz, FG, and lower paygrade Jack doesn't think faith is a gift, however I strongly feel "salvation" is a gift where faith is the means of the gift.

Two-bit department,

Old Jack

 

[Hammster]

We're both aware of our differences. So what?

The issue of this thread is how can unregenerate people worship God. I like to stick with the issue, and not pull out red herrings, or equivocate, or dodge whatever questions come my way.

It'a always best to focus on the thread one is posting in. If he or anyone else asks me a question, or challenges me on anything, I will surely answer.

I think you just like seeing non-calvinists argue.

Funny how now you want to get back on track, but had no problem saying my question was based on a false premise.

And actually, I just like exposing your double standards. Like I said, I didn't expect you to challenge him. You didn't disappoint.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I doubt you'll challenge Oz on that, though. Somehow, you'll give him a pass even though your views are just as different from his as the are from Calvinism.

Yep! It's like I have said. JW's and Christadelphians adamantly disagree and are at odds with each other on the person of Christ. But they form an alliance against Trinitarians.

So FG2 and Oz give each other a pass on many errors so they can with one voice attack the oracles of God.

 

[Hammster]

Oz, FG, and lower paygrade Jack doesn't think faith is a gift, however I strongly feel "salvation" is a gift where faith is the means of the gift.

Two-bit department,

Old Jack

I guess you missed the post where Oz said faith is a gift.

 

[shturt678s]

I guess you missed the post where Oz said faith is a gift.

Oz and I do agree to disagree even in the essentials of the faith, and thank you for the head's up.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

In light of Eph.2:8, 9 "faith" and "grace" cannot be 'gifts,' however are the means of one receiving the 'gift' of salvation of course, ie, for clarity.

btw I thought you said "Oz, FG doesn't think faith is a gift."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Funny how now you want to get back on track, but had no problem saying my question was based on a false premise.

What's funny about the truth?

And actually, I just like exposing your double standards. Like I said, I didn't expect you to challenge him. You didn't disappoint.

How have you exposed anything, other than your penchant for irrelevant things?

I explained myself. If you didn't understand what I posted, I'm sorry.

But I'm sure I disappointed by not engaging in what you were hoping for.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yep! It's like I have said. JW's and Christadelphians adamantly disagree and are at odds with each other on the person of Christ. But they form an alliance against Trinitarians.

So FG2 and Oz give each other a pass on many errors so they can with one voice attack the oracles of God.

"oracles of God"??? Really??? We've both demonstrated the failure of RT to defend itself rationally and with Scripture.

There are NO verses that SAYS what RT claims.

There are many verses that SAYS the opposite of what RT claims.

 

[Hammster]

What's funny about the truth?


How have you exposed anything, other than your penchant for irrelevant things?

I explained myself. If you didn't understand what I posted, I'm sorry.

But I'm sure I disappointed by not engaging in what you were hoping for.

No, you didn't disappoint.

 

[cygnusx1]

We are on a forum where accusations against Arminians do not need assertions but evidence. In your previous post, you provided ZERO evidence.

Your charges do not hold up on this forum either when no evidence is provided.

first what exactly was I accusing anyone of ?

second , it is true Arminians believe what I said they believe .

the latter post which you skipped over .. provided scripture for the point I was making .

 

[cygnusx1]

How is it that you don't see your own contradiction?

Your question is basically this: you must already possess what you are about to possess.

How, specifically, does that work?

Cannot you see I was being humorous by mimicking Wesley's view ?

Faith being a gift is no denier of it being useful to man in the workings of salvation .

What I was referring to was the idea one must have faith to obtain faith , it was a tongue in cheek poke at Wesley's view .

Obviously , Calvinists speak of saving faith as vital to salvation as is repentance , and it being a gift implies it cannot be obtained by faith .

 

[OzSpen]

If he didn't want to be drawn or promoted, then the fact that God does so regardless of his desire is violating his free will. I don't know why you don't see it that way.

So is a gusty wind that is blowing my way (2 cyclones are currently and literally coming towards the Queensland coast). Are they violating my free will?

The wind of the Spirit blows where it will and there is absolutely no violation of free will.

When smoke blows across my street, it is not violating my free will but my free will encourages me to move from out of the path of the smoke.

When one has free will, it is pointless to raise your kind of objection as it is a Calvinistic exercise of Hamm's invention.

 

[Hammster]

So is a gusty wind that is blowing my way (2 cyclones are currently and literally coming towards the Queensland coast). Are they violating my free will?

The wind of the Spirit blows where it will and there is absolutely no violation of free will.

When smoke blows across my street, it is not violating my free will but my free will encourages me to move from out of the path of the smoke.

When one has free will, it is pointless to raise your kind of objection as it is a Calvinistic exercise of Hamm's invention.

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8 NASB)

When the Spirit moves as the wind, He accomplishes something. He's not trying to accomplish something. I think you know this, which is why you incorporated the straw man of smoke across the street.

 

[Angeldove97]

Enough with the snarky posts- please make sure you are discussing the topic and not attacking the members. This has been going on for too long throughout this thread and isn't helping the discussion at all. Keep all comments about a member OUT of your posts- just discuss the topic.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinists have made the claim that unregenerate people hate God, and want nothing to do with Him.

They further claim that unless and until God regenerates them, which allows them to believe the gospel, they simply can't believe, nor love God.

Yet, Scripture provides two examples of unregenerate unbelievers who worshiped God.

Example #1 -

Acts 10:1
Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,

Acts 10:2
a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many ◙ alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Acts 10:3
About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!”
Acts 10:4
And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

Here we have a Greek who had reverence for God, praying to Him continually.

Yet we know from Acts 11:14 that he wasn't saved until Peter preached to him.

Example #2 -

Acts 16:14
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

It is clear that she believed the gospel that Paul preached. Yet we read that she was already a "worshiper of God".

So, 2 examples of people who reverenced and worshiped God prior to hearing the gospel and believing it.

How can this be since Calvinists claim that unbelievers (meaning to them those for whom Christ didn't die) hate God?

"My view is that He regenerates the DEAD human spirit, which died immediately when Adam rebelled. That's why everyone is born DEAD in sins. We are spiritually DEAD. We are separated from God, which is what being DEAD means. In physical death, our soul is separated from our body. In spiritual death, a dead human spirit cannot worship God (we are separated from Him)."

 

[FreeGrace2]

"My view is that He regenerates the DEAD human spirit, which died immediately when Adam rebelled. That's why everyone is born DEAD in sins. We are spiritually DEAD. We are separated from God, which is what being DEAD means. In physical death, our soul is separated from our body. In spiritual death, a dead human spirit cannot worship God (we are separated from Him)."

While this shows up as your statement, I said the exact same thing in another thread. Did you copy and paste?