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How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by bottomofsandal, Aug 28, 2016.

  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Sola Gratia

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    Pray that I might be able to speak through your struggling spirit so that you might grasp the God of creation as shared in His holy word.
    I cannot make you comprehend the greatness of our God and the attributes He displays in scripture.

    Pray that somehow God will use me to get through to you.

    It pains me to see you view God as a loveable purple dinosaur who sings sweet melodies to all mankind.
     
  2. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    What do you suppose is the 'heart'?
    The heart of a man is their innermost being which is aligned with the spirit which is also their innermost being of a person.
    There is a linking there of the two. Perhaps heart also involves more of the emotions. It is not easy to understand what the heart is separate from the spirit, but together it makes sense.

    God in Ezekiel says He will put in them a new heart and a new spirit. This is speaking of the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.
    Ezekiel 11:18-20New King James Version (NKJV)
    18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

    God says the people need a new heart and a new spirit in order to live and not die.
    Ezekiel 18:31
    Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

    Peter links the heart with the spirit.
    1 Peter 3
    2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.


    Jesus said about those who believe in Hm, out of a man's innermost being (heart and spirit) will flow rivers of living water.
    John 7:38
    He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

    That last one should convince us the heart is no longer desperately wicked after God gives them a heart transplant, removing the old stone dead rock hard heart and exchanging it with a heart of flesh, so soft and tender to feel God's love.

    v5 tells us God's love is poured out through our hearts, just as Jesus says in John 7:38.
    So not sewage is coming out of the heart of those who believe in Christ.

    Romans 5New King James Version (NKJV)

    Faith Triumphs in Trouble
    1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
    5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


    And Jesus says about the pure in heart what?
    If you are not pure in heart, then you will not be saved.
    Matthew 5:8
    Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    How about those who bear bad fruit versus those who bear good fruit?

    Matthew 12:33-35New King James Version (NKJV)
    A Tree Known by Its Fruit
    33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

    And Jesus says what about bad trees?
    What about good trees?
    Jesus clearly teaches a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.
    Link what Jesus says in Matthew 7 with what Jesus says in Matthew 12 and you will see a born of God person can not bear ANY bad fruit. and be a born of God person. Jesus is the one who makes all the trees, either bad, or good. He created all things.

    Matthew 7
    You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
     
  3. bottomofsandal

    bottomofsandal Well-Known Member

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    It is MY thread...
    I have been very patient with the off topic wanderings, corollaries, and personal crusades!

    The topic is grace, not love...but we are already down the rabbit hole-
    John 14 clearly states God loves those who obey Him.
    Others have posted Scipture per your request...you don't agree or like the verses.



    Does God love the condemned souls in hell?
     
  4. bottomofsandal

    bottomofsandal Well-Known Member

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    Sure it does!

    God disciplines/chastens those He loves.

    If a man is not chastened of The Lord, then that man is not loved.
     
  5. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    There is no place in scripture that says: God arbitrarily (without a logical understandable reason) treats mature adults differently concerning salvation. Yes, God does hate some people, but “hate” is not the opposite of Love and as we are to both Love and hate our parents, God can love (want to save) and hate a person (cannot work with them), so as an example God hated Esau, but that does not mean Esau was not saved in the end and in heaven.

    The bible says; “God is just” and you even say that in this post, so what are the inspired writers of scripture trying to convey to the reader when they say: “God is just”?

    Proverbs 24:27 An unjust man is an abomination to the righteous, but he whose way is straight is an abomination to the wicked.

    Duet. 16:19 You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality; and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous.

    2 Chron. 19:7 Now then, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed what you do, for there is no perversion of justice with the Lord our God, or partiality, or taking bribes.”

    Pro. 28:21 To show partiality is not good; but for a piece of bread a man will do wrong.

    Is. 3: 9 Their partiality witnesses against them…

    Luke 20:21 They asked him, “Teacher, we know that you speak and teach rightly, and show no partiality, but truly teach the way of God.

    Ro. 2:11 For God shows no partiality.

    Gal. 2:6 And from those who were reputed to be something (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who were of repute added nothing to me;

    Eph. 6: 9 Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

    Col. 3: 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

    Is the only way God could show no partiality toward the nonbelieving sinner would be by treating them equally?

    If God is choosing some nonbelievers over other nonbelievers for no reason, then He is showing partiality toward the ones He chose?


    Jesus has shown and told us God’s attributes which includes God being “just”, which would communicate treating everyone equally.


    Yes, we all deserve destruction, but God is offering to everyone equally an invitation to His Banquet.



    ,







    Treating nonbelievers differently would not be “just”, so God does treat everyone equally in the one area that counts “Salvation”. That is the standard of Love and justice we are to follow.

    I am not “superimpose our personality characteristics”, since Christ and the Bible has shown and told us how God is. The way God treated David is the way all sinners who repent are treated.
     
  6. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    That is what they are saying, the difference is between accepting and rejecting.
     
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Like these posts from another thread, with good penetrating / seeking questions.
    The TRUTH about ecclesia, about accepting or rejecting YHWH'S GRACE, is only known by and according to YHWH'S WORD [SCRIPTURE] BREATHED[not written by man's initiative nor from man's resources as a source] BY YHWH. .

    No. Neither "a universal gathering" as thought of today, nor
    a locally organized body of believers as seen today.

    (YHWH gives clear INSTRUCTIONS in HIS WORD, yes; man came up with other ideas instead).
    The main and vital difference is written of those in the BODY OF CHRIST:
    "Y'SHUA IS THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN" in HIM - there is no one between YHWH and a saved man except Y'SHUA, so to speak. If anyone says they are 'between' God and man, they are liars, and the truth is not in them. [Intercessors are not 'between' God and man; Intercession is VITAL [NECESSARY] TODAY as in all of the SCRIPTURE INSTRUCTIONS TO US TO PRAY FOR ONE ANOTHER HERE ON EARTH].
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    When YHWH says HE hated Esau, HE hated Esau.
    Simple.
    HE says often in HIS WORD HIS WAYS are [infinitely] HIGHER and TOTALLY DIFFERENT than our [man's] ways;
    HIS WAYS are not logically discerned, nor by any amount of study on man's part, man's wisdom, nor man's knowledge.
    Even the Apostle Peter, Specifically CALLED and CHOSEN BY YHWH,
    and the Apostle John, and the Apostle Paul, all Specifically CALLED and CHOSEN BY YHWH,
    did not learn Y'SHUA IS MESSIAH by men's doing, nor by men's methods.
    Rather,
    as Yochanan the immerser proclaimed before them,
    "no man can receive anything, unless it is granted to them by the FATHER from heaven";
    then
    Y'SHUA always said the same thing, never changing.
    "the flesh profits nothing" and
    "keep yourselves from idols".
     
  9. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    By your own words, you do not know what hate means. His ways are higher than yours, yet you think His hate is the hate man knows.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I believe HIS WORD. Simple. (yes, revelation is required; sorry)
     
  11. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    So you have revelation on God's hate?
     
  12. bottomofsandal

    bottomofsandal Well-Known Member

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    Which verses apply to salvation?

    Does God love the souls in hell the same as He love us?
     
  13. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Hey bottom, do these verses apply to salvation?

    Revelation 22 -
    14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
    15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
     
  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Sola Gratia

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    Here's the entire passage. You tell us.

    Revelation 22:7-20
    [7]“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book.”
    [8]I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.
    [9]But he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!”
    [10]Then he instructed me, “Do not seal up the prophetic words in this book, for the time is near.
    [11]Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.”
    [12]“Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.
    [13]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
    [14]Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will be permitted to enter through the gates of the city and eat the fruit from the tree of life.
    [15]Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.
    [16]“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star.”
    [17]The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.
    [18]And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book.
    [19]And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.
    [20]He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!”Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
     
  15. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Jesus tells us to hate our parents so are we to just simple "hate" our parents?
     
  16. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    The verses quoted apply to the scriptural meaning of "just" and we agree that God is "just" by the scriptural definition.

    God takes no pleasure in hurting any human, so I would say God is still hurt by allowing individuals to make their free will choice to reject His charity. God allows humans to sin and in the same way God allows people to go to hell and will send them there, because that is what He has said He would do to those that refused to accept His charity.
     
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Very good one ! :)
    And "hate" what else also ?
    This is all pertinent, and lacking )today< .
     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Revelation 22:7
    KJ21
    “Behold, I come quickly.” Blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
    ASV
    And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.
    AMP
    “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) is the one who heeds and takes to heart and remembers the words of the prophecy [that is, the predictions, consolations, and warnings] contained in this book (scroll).”
    AMPC
    And behold, I am coming speedily. Blessed (happy and to be envied) is he who observes and lays to heart and keeps the truths of the prophecy (the predictions, consolations, and warnings) contained in this [little] book.
    [18]And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book.
    [19]And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

    [20]He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!”Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
     
  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Sola Gratia

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    I have no idea what your point is.
     
  20. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Let me guess, the ESV? Yes, it is.

    And yes Menno, it is about salvation. Have you washed your robe? Do you hear the message given? Are you thirsty? If so, COME! Don't wait any longer...COME! Don't sit around and do nothing...He's calling you...will you come, or will you stay behind outside the city? The Spirit and Bride say, "COME"! It's your choice Menno; will you COME?

    Jesus is coming soon, Amen! And He bids you to COME! What do you choose?
     
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