How can Shavuot be any day but the First?

[HARK!]

(CLV) Lv 23:11
He will wave the sheaf before Yahweh for acceptance on your behalf. From the morrow of the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

I read this as the first Sabbath after Hag Matzot begins.

(CLV) Lv 23:12
On the day when you cause the sheaf to wave you will offer a flawless year-old he-lamb as an ascent offering to Yahweh,

(CLV) Lv 23:13
together with its approach present of two tenths of an ephah of flour mingled with oil, a fire offering to Yahweh, a fragrant odor, and its libation of wine, a fourth of a hin.

(CLV) Lv 23:14
Not bread or toasted grain or groats of the new crop shall you eat until this very day, until you bring the approach present of your Elohim. It shall be an eonian statute ›throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

(CLV) Lv 23:15
You will count off for yourselves from the morrow of the sabbath, from the day you bring the sheaf of the wave offering: there shall be seven flawless sabbaths.

This confirms it, in my mind, seven Sabbaths, or 49 days.

(CLV) Lv 23:16
Until the morrow of the seventh sabbath you shall count off fifty days; then you will bring near an approach present of new grain to Yahweh.

The day after the seventh sabbath is fifty days.

I do a quick web search:

1. Printable Shavuot Guide - 2020 - Shavuot
   www.chabad.org/.../Printable-Shavuot-Guide-2020.htm
   The holiday of Shavuot is a two-day holiday, beginning at sundown of the 5th of Sivan and lasting until nightfall of the 7th of Sivan (May 28–30, 2020). In Israel it is a one-day holiday, ending at nightfall of the 6th of Sivan.

I have the 11th of last month, as the first Shabbat after Pesach, and after the first day of Hag Matzot.


11 begin

1.) 18 = 7 days
2.) 25 = 14 days
3.) 2 = 21 days
4.) 9 = 28 days
5.) 16 = 35 days
6.) 23 = 42 days
7.) 30 = 49 days

There you have seven flawless sabbaths.

Add a day for 50 days, and that places Shavuot on the 31, or right now, by my estimation.

 

[Greengardener]

I was taken aback this year to see the notice from a Jewish friend citing the onset of Shavuot the evening of 5/28 instead of last evening. So I went back to Leviticus and re-read it, thinking I had goofed up somehow. Well, it sure sounded like it would always be on a morrow after the Sabbath to me. Not being Jewish, I double-check my understanding against what I can find in Jewish thought but it does come down to the fact that I'm personally responsible for this word of God that I have access to read for myself regardless of the consensus or the variations.

I sometimes forget that various groups have made "executive decisions" to change the calculations of the holy day observances. Whether that will have significance or is just like how Americans have moved many holidays to Mondays is not my area to judge. It just might be the natural evolution of having this religion spread over such a large area that if they were to calculate by the growing conditions in each area, it would make for different days for each region, which could potentially lead to confusion. It could be that people grew tired of living by different calendars and decided to try to standardize, especially as more people "left the farm." I'm still sufficiently new to this so I still find the differences more interesting than challenging. I don't grow wheat or barley annually but I do look at the calendar and compare it to the growing conditions for my garden, and overall it runs nicely enough together that all I can do is marvel at God's goodness.

For this day, I'm particularly thankful that God gave us His Law and His Holy Spirit. He has provided all we need for life and godliness in our knowledge of His Son, and we aren't left alone in these darkening days. May we complete the work He told us to do and may His kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[HARK!]

I was taken aback this year to see the notice from a Jewish friend citing the onset of Shavuot the evening of 5/28 instead of last evening. So I went back to Leviticus and re-read it, thinking I had goofed up somehow. Well, it sure sounded like it would always be on a morrow after the Sabbath to me. Not being Jewish, I double-check my understanding against what I can find in Jewish thought but it does come down to the fact that I'm personally responsible for this word of God that I have access to read for myself regardless of the consensus or the variations.

I sometimes forget that various groups have made "executive decisions" to change the calculations of the holy day observances. Whether that will have significance or is just like how Americans have moved many holidays to Mondays is not my area to judge. It just might be the natural evolution of having this religion spread over such a large area that if they were to calculate by the growing conditions in each area, it would make for different days for each region, which could potentially lead to confusion. It could be that people grew tired of living by different calendars and decided to try to standardize, especially as more people "left the farm." I'm still sufficiently new to this so I still find the differences more interesting than challenging. I don't grow wheat or barley annually but I do look at the calendar and compare it to the growing conditions for my garden, and overall it runs nicely enough together that all I can do is marvel at God's goodness.

For this day, I'm particularly thankful that God gave us His Law and His Holy Spirit. He has provided all we need for life and godliness in our knowledge of His Son, and we aren't left alone in these darkening days. May we complete the work He told us to do and may His kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

I don't follow the Hillel Calendar. I follow Leviticus 23, the best I know how. I do grow barley; and I'm pretty much at the same latitude as the land of Israel; but I wait for the barley sighting in Israel; then I go by my own moon sighting here in the U.S..

As this approach most often does not line up with Hillel; I usually have to count the days myself. This year, Passover lined up with my approach; so I said, "COOL! I don't have to count it all myself this year. I can just go by the Hillel Calendar." Now I knew that the Hillel calendar had problems; but I didn't know that they went this deep. Maybe I can work off of the Karaite calendar for the rest of this year. I'll have to check it out, in case I see Passover line up with my calculations again.

YHWH does call us to be vigilant; and I seem to find obstacles to doing his will at every turn.

 

[Broken Fence]

me and my mom use calender put out by Lion and Lamb ministries

 

[ralliann]

I was taken aback this year to see the notice from a Jewish friend citing the onset of Shavuot the evening of 5/28 instead of last evening. So I went back to Leviticus and re-read it, thinking I had goofed up somehow. Well, it sure sounded like it would always be on a morrow after the Sabbath to me. Not being Jewish, I double-check my understanding against what I can find in Jewish thought but it does come down to the fact that I'm personally responsible for this word of God that I have access to read for myself regardless of the consensus or the variations.

I sometimes forget that various groups have made "executive decisions" to change the calculations of the holy day observances. Whether that will have significance or is just like how Americans have moved many holidays to Mondays is not my area to judge. It just might be the natural evolution of having this religion spread over such a large area that if they were to calculate by the growing conditions in each area, it would make for different days for each region, which could potentially lead to confusion. It could be that people grew tired of living by different calendars and decided to try to standardize, especially as more people "left the farm." I'm still sufficiently new to this so I still find the differences more interesting than challenging. I don't grow wheat or barley annually but I do look at the calendar and compare it to the growing conditions for my garden, and overall it runs nicely enough together that all I can do is marvel at God's goodness.

For this day, I'm particularly thankful that God gave us His Law and His Holy Spirit. He has provided all we need for life and godliness in our knowledge of His Son, and we aren't left alone in these darkening days. May we complete the work He told us to do and may His kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

I don't know if it will make any difference to you or not but just for your consideration.
These times were put into practice long before the scriptures were available for all to read. these days were days to bring offerings to the temple priests. "Executive decisions" consider the high court presided over by the high priest.
De 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
De 17:10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

The high priest had the urim and thumim to consult God directly concerning controversies. (long lost by the first century)

Therefore Jesus said
Mt 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat
The high priest still had power over the court, in that the decisions coming from them were not sectarian as the two parties (Sadducee and Pharisee) pronounced law in agreement. All else was considered sectarian and a disputable matter.

Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Ac 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Ac 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

 

[pinacled]

2 peter 1:19

 

[visionary]

If there is any clues as to which way is right, it would be which was Yeshua following in His life, His death, and His resurrected activity.

 

[HARK!]

If there is any clues as to which way is right, it would be which was Yeshua following in His life, His death, and His resurrected activity.

He did come to set us straight.

 

[ralliann]

If there is any clues as to which way is right, it would be which was Yeshua following in His life, His death, and His resurrected activity.

well, how about he reconciled both ruling sects?
If the weekly sabbath fell on the 15th both the Sadducees and Pharisees
Calendars would have been the same.

 

[visionary]

well, how about he reconciled both ruling sects?
If the weekly sabbath fell on the 15th both the Sadducees and Pharisees
Calendars would have been the same.

I think that happen once every 19 years??

 

[HARK!]

well, how about he reconciled both ruling sects?
If the weekly sabbath fell on the 15th both the Sadducees and Pharisees
Calendars would have been the same.

Were either of them following the Torah? I've been told that the Karaites observe the day after Shabbat.

 

[HARK!]

I think that happen once every 19 years??

I haven't studied any of this. I've heard and read of all kinds of calendar theories. I just follow the Torah the best I can.

I'd appreciate it if you all would share more, for those of us who don't know much about all this.

I know that the Hillel calendar is flawed; but that was devised after the exile.

 

[ralliann]

Were either of them following the Torah? I've been told that the Karaites observe the day after Shabbat.

That is what I meant when I said if the 15th was a Sabbath both calendars would have been reconciled in him. And it is also So with the Church. Which IMO was made up of all FORMER sectarians. The sunday controversy is a very modern debate not found in Church history. The early controversy concerning "easter" concerned memorializing his death, on the 14th and breaking a fast that the entire Church kept. The western Church broke the fast on the following Sunday to memorialize his resurrection. there has never been a dispute concerning the day he arose from the dead.

 

[HARK!]

That is what I meant when I said if the 15th was a Sabbath both calendars would have been reconciled in him. And it is also So with the Church. Which IMO was made up of all FORMER sectarians.

You're losing me here. I haven't studied this. I'm not even quite sure what this is all about.

I know that the Saducees, as well as the other sects, disappeared at around the same time that the Pharisees cut a deal with Rome. In that light I'm assuming that your talking about two different calendars before the fall of the temple. I'd like to take a closer look at this; but I'm not quite sure where to start.

 

[ralliann]

You're losing me here. I haven't studied this. I'm not even quite sure what this is all about.

I know that the Saducees, as well as the other sects, disappeared at around the same time that the Pharisees cut a deal with Rome. In that light I'm assuming that your talking about two different calendars before the fall of the temple. I'd like to take a closer look at this; but I'm not quite sure where to start.

I edited my post I don't know if you seen the additional info.

 

[HARK!]

I edited my post I don't know if you seen the additional info.

No, I hadn't seen the edit. I'm not quite sure what it has to do with Saducees and Pharisees.

I have read (and I've forgotten the details) that when the Church (I believe Catholic) was deciding what day 'that bunny day' would be; they picked a timing that would ensure that it would never fall on Pesach. In their general contempt for the Judaeans and the Torah, it seems that in their ignorance, they were unaware that Yahshua most likely rose on Yom Habikkurim. I assume that choosing this time frame stems from contempt, and not some kadosh regard.

Why not just celebrate his resurrection on Yom Habikkurim?

 

[ralliann]

No, I hadn't seen the edit. I'm not quite sure what it has to do with Saducees and Pharisees.

I have read (and I've forgotten the details) that when the Church (I believe Catholic) was deciding what day 'that bunny day' would be; they picked a timing that would ensure that it would never fall on Pesach. In their general contempt for the Judaeans and the Torah, it seems that in their ignorance, they were unaware that Yahshua most likely rose on Yom Habikkurim. I assume that choosing this time frame stems from contempt, and not some kadosh regard.

Why not just celebrate his resurrection on Yom Habikkurim?

I added a link concerning that as well to the post.
What the controversy concerned (as you can read from the link) is when the Churches broke their fast leading up to holy week. The distinction was between whether to do that on the 14th to memorialize his death or on the following Sunday to memorialize his resurrection. Take notice the focus was his death or resurrection. There was never ever a dispute about what day he arose. Now if you want to commemorate his death, by all means do so on the 14th.

 

[HARK!]

I added a link concerning that as well to the post.
What the controversy concerned (as you can read from the link) is when the Churches broke their fast leading up to holy week. The distinction was between whether to do that on the 14th to memorialize his death or on the following Sunday to memorialize his resurrection. Take notice the focus was his death or resurrection. There was never ever a dispute about what day he arose. Now if you want to commemorate his death, by all means do so on the 14th.

Yes, Quartodecimanism, it's coming back to me now. I studied this several years ago; but I still don't see how this applies to the Saducees or Pharisees.

By the way, that link doesn't take you where you think it should.

 

[ralliann]

Yes, Quartodecimanism, it's coming back to me now. I studied this several years ago; but I still don't see how this applies to the Saducees or Pharisees.

By the way, that link doesn't take you where you think it should.

Hmm sorry about the link, I didn't check it out before I posted (should have) I might have to go back and delete it then.
The Sadducees gave into the Pharisees, but did not agree on their application of Lev 23:11
Le 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
They did not accept this as being a festival Sabbath. They took this to mean any weekly Sabbath day that happened to fall during the feast of unleavened bread. fixing if you will the day rather than date.
The Pharisees took the Sabbath in that verse to mean the first days of the feast as a festival Sabbath which fixed the date the count began. The Essenes on the other hand took it to mean a Sabbath which fell a week later.
Therefore two sects believed that the first day of each week always fell on a sunday as well as Pentecost. While the Pharisees had it move from year to year.
It may or may not have any significance for you but.....both the Essenes and The Sadducees were associated with the priesthood. But the Essenes had pretty much left the temple and the rulership at Jerusalem. They thought they were to corrupt.

 

[HARK!]

It may or may not have any significance for you but.....both the Essenes and The Sadducees were associated with the priesthood.

To the contrary, I find all of this to be very important to know.

I do however question the Essenes being associated with the Priesthood.

I believe that the claims of the Essenes being at Qumran is a complete fabrication. The Essenes were celibate Gnostics who lived about 25 miles away from Qumran.


At the time of Yahshua the Priesthood was corrupt. It's my understanding that the High Priesthood wasn't even held by Levites; and basically was being sold to the highest bidder.

I believe this is why people we flocking to John the Baptist near Qumran.

I've done extensive study on this subject.

Rachel Elior touches on some of these points. This dissertation is about an hour and a half long; but it's a must for anyone who is interested in these topics.