How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
After this gradual Christianization of the world,

This isn't going to happen. Christianity is in a decline, the worst now than ever. It is when Christianity is at it's lowest will the GT happen and afterwards Christ will return.
I believe it already happened....in the time of the early church. "The world" referring mostly to the Gentile nations.

Where the 7 Churches were - Asia Minor

Province of Asia Minor: It is most amazing that a few people from among the simple Galileans traveled to Asia Minor and by their words and the witness of their lives produced an almost total change in the beliefs and lifestyle of wealthy pagans. Scholars believe there were 80,000 or more followers of Jesus by the year 100 and by the year 200 the province of Asia Minor was largely Christian. How was this possible? The most pagan province of the Roman world. Ordinary Galileans as the messengers. An almost complete change of culture. Clearly the power of God was at work.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I believe it already happened....in the time of the early church.

"After this gradual Christianization of the world, Christ will return and immediately usher the church into their eternal state after judging the wicked."

Christ returning after the world is the most Christian it has been? No way. Christ didn't return in the past, and Christianity is shrinking rapidly. No, when Christ returns the world will have almost extinguished Christianity completely.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
"After this gradual Christianization of the world, Christ will return and immediately usher the church into their eternal state after judging the wicked."

Christ returning after the world is the most Christian it has been? No way. Christ didn't return in the past, and Christianity is shrinking rapidly. No, when Christ returns the world will have almost extinguished Christianity completely.
That definition is for one small passage in Revelation (relative to where His "coming" is in relation to the millennium). Not everyone is going to fit neatly into the four stated views.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Anyone can come up with creative theories like that. Kind of reminds me of how creative some are being about Revelation 18 when they are seeing the United States in the context, mainly New York City.

Well, If somebody says "I predict that Tomorrow the Golden Gate Bridge will collapse" and in two days I see a news article that says "yesterday the Golden gate bridge collapsed" complete with Pictures of the collapsed golden gate bridge, It's not really "creative theory" to ascertain that the prediction from 2 days earlier came true, is it?
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Christianity is shrinking rapidly.

Demonstrably untrue.
Are you just making stuff up?
Christian population growth - Wikipedia
"Christianity adds about 65.1 million people annually due to factors such as birth rate, religious conversion and migration, while losing 27.4 million people annually due to factors such as death rate, religious apostasy and immigration."

That's a net annual gain of 37.7 million people annually.

In no semblance of any kind of calculation can a net gain of 37.7 million people per year equate to "Shrinking Rapidly"

There are demonstrably more Christians Today than there were yesterday, and there will be more tomorrow than there are today.

Do you not believe the scripture?:

Isaiah 9:7
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The fact is the arc of history continues unabated toward the inevitable Christianization of the planet.
The past 2000 years have brought us leaps and bounds toward that inevitable hopeful future..
And the last 100 years exponentially so, as there were only 600 million Christians in 1900...

From 12 Christians to 600 million in 1900 years is quite a feat... and from 600 million to 2.1 billion in a mere 100 years is exponential.

Might take another 1000 years or more, but God is patient. (And 1000 years is but a day to him anyway)

Nations rise and fall, and because we are stuck in the middle of our own range of perception, we can easily get caught up in thinking ours is the worst ever, but a quick survey of the History of Humanity, readily dispels that notion. The Church remains, ever triumphant, ups and downs to be sure, for in this world we have tribulation, but nothing can stop the Church from her destiny, to subdue the earth and make disciples of all nations.
Nothing can stop us. (Matthew 16:18)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Typically, premills believe the "rapture" is a removal of the saints - but then, as I understand it, they ALSO have the saints reigning with Christ physically.....on earth (after they've been "taken away"). IOW....those that are supposed to reign with Christ during the millennium are the very ones that they have removed by the "rapture".

What are YOUR beliefs about all that?


The way I tend to reason it. As Christ descends, the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the alive remaining on the earth being caught up with them as they are descending to the earth.

These together explain the armies seen with Christ in Revelation 19. Christ and His armies continue the descent to the earth until they are confronted with the beast and it's armies. The beast and the FP are cast alive into the LOF at the time. The remnant are slain, thus become part of the dead who do not live again until the thousand years expire first.

During these events satan is also dealt with, but not as in being cast into the LOF, but as in being cast into the BP. At this point this thousand years would be underway. The first resurrection would precede this, though not by much. The first resurrection would have to be meaning when the dead in Christ rise first.

The following I would be seeing as referring to the same events----and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee(Zechariah 14:5)----Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed(Jude 1:14-15)----And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God(Revelation 19:14-15 ).

I don't have all the details perfectly worked out or anything, so this is just a rough outline. Some of this involves numerous sources in order to try and see the bigger picture. There are things in the book of Daniel to consider. There are things in the book of Isaiah to consider, so on and so on, way too much for me to try and adequately express in writing. That doesn't mean someone else couldn't adequately express in writing how all of these things tend to tie together though.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The way I tend to reason it. As Christ descends, the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the alive remaining on the earth being caught up with them as they are descending to the earth.

These together explain the armies seen with Christ in Revelation 19. Christ and His armies continue the descent to the earth until they are confronted with the beast and it's armies. The beast and the FP are cast alive into the LOF at the time. The remnant are slain, thus become part of the dead who do not live again until the thousand years expire first.

The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precice moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

As you have posited, the popular millennialist maps separate these three eschatological events by a period of 1000 historic years--or, in some cases, 1007 years. The bible doesn't allow it. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of... wait for it......1000 years!

The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".

Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.


The first resurrection would have to be meaning when the dead in Christ rise first.

Well, You can't have a "First resurrection" that isn't actually "First".

The First Resurrection is not something Jesus does, it's something Jesus IS.

"I am the resurrection and the Life"

Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection, and on those that take part in it, the 2nd death has no power.

Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, MUST form the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)

The first resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5

Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead Acts 26:23
Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead

Colossians 1:18
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became


Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection. This fact forms the basis of St. John's depiction of the tribulation martyr saints becoming full partakers of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20--everything Christ received by his death and resurrection is granted to them. Revelation 20:4-6, therefore, depicts the reality of Pauline theology concerning the identity Christ's followers had "in Him." Paul had taught that the saints were to become partakers of Christ's own reign and victory over death. Paul, with his detailed theology of our baptism into the very death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:3-14), taught that the saints had co-resurrection and co-enthronement in the realized resurrection and enthronement of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:4-6 is a narrative depiction of the saints' realization of the glorious promise Paul held out for them in his teachings--the saints are depicted as having attained the goal for which they all strove. As Paul taught, their resurrection and reign was "in Christ," and their sufferings and martyrdoms were honored by God with the reward of partaking in Christ's own resurrection, enthronement, and reign. They realized the promise of Paul's teaching that the saints were truly to take part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Truly, on these the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sounds like a personal opinion to me. Maybe where you come from personal opinions settle things. But where I come from, they don't.

Having been a deacon in a conservative Bible church who had to tell the truth about the origin of modern Dispensational Theology, it is more than an opinion.

I produced the following YouTube video after I discovered the recent origin of the doctrine found in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology


.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,689
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,795.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Hebrews Jews?! Like I said, you did not understand what the spirit said to the seven churches because you believe the MYSTERY of the seven stars and seven lamp stands represents the Hebrews Jews of the First Century? LOL!! No, you do not know what you talked about.



You Preterists can quote these verses and insisted the prophecies were for the First Century people all day until your faces turn blue! Sorry, but you still do err! This was not how Christ prophesied this way! He was speaking to His church through them!



More military history garbage from preteristarchive site for one purpose. To promote their false doctrine. What they have is NOT biblical history.
Your screename animated image is distracting. Why be so combative?

Why not go for something inspirational instead ?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
.




Well, You can't have a "First resurrection" that isn't actually "First".

The way I tend to reason it, there are 2 types of resurrections. One is the resurrection of the righteous. The other is the resurrection of the unrighteous. Obviously Christ's resurrection would fall under the former. Thus anyone taking part in the resurrection of the righteous takes part in the same type of resurrection Christ did, IOW a resurrection involving eternal life.


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Two types of resurrections here.

1----they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

2----they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Let's do some comparing.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


the dead in Christ that shall rise first---which group above will they be rising with in John 5:28-29? 1 or 2?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


These that have part in the first resurrection---which group above will they be rising with in John 5:28-29? 1 or 2?

the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished---which group above will they be rising with in John 5? 1 or 2?


You indicated you can't have a first resurrection that isn't actually first, yet Christ's resurrection and when the dead in Christ rise first, all of this precedes when any of the lost dead rise. If there are two types of resurrections, obviously one type precedes the other type, thus making the first type, the resurrection involving the righteous, the first resurrection, regardless. And that's exactly what all of the above I have submitted shows, that any resurrection of the righteous precedes any resurrection involving the unrighteous, therefore making the former the first resurrection no matter how you look at it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The way I tend to reason it, there are 2 types of resurrections. One is the resurrection of the righteous. The other is the resurrection of the unrighteous. Obviously Christ's resurrection would fall under the former. Thus anyone taking part in the resurrection of the righteous takes part in the same type of resurrection Christ did, IOW a resurrection involving eternal life.


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Two types of resurrections here.

1----they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

2----they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Let's do some comparing.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


the dead in Christ that shall rise first---which group above will they be rising with in John 5:28-29? 1 or 2?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


These that have part in the first resurrection---which group above will they be rising with in John 5:28-29? 1 or 2?

the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished---which group above will they be rising with in John 5? 1 or 2?


You indicated you can't have a first resurrection that isn't actually first, yet Christ's resurrection and when the dead in Christ rise first, all of this precedes when any of the lost dead rise. If there are two types of resurrections, obviously one type precedes the other type, thus making the first type, the resurrection involving the righteous, the first resurrection, regardless. And that's exactly what all of the above I have submitted shows, that any resurrection of the righteous precedes any resurrection involving the unrighteous, therefore making the former the first resurrection no matter how you look at it.

Once again it is the scripture being ignored that kills your Premill doctrine.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How long is an "hour", and how many is "all"?

Why did you ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?


What did Paul say below about the timing of both the living and the dead being judged?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Did Paul describe the fire coming at His Second Coming in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

.

 
  • Agree
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
the dead in Christ that shall rise first---which group above will they be rising with in John 5:28-29? 1 or 2?

Both.
Since Paul is comparing and contrasting the resurrection of the Dead in Christ with the Changing of the Living in Christ, this particular scripture isn't concerned with the unrepentant..

The dead in Christ rise FIRST, then, (at a later, undetermined time) the living in Christ will be caught up... these two events are hardly simultaneous, or even immediately sequential.

Omission of any mention by Paul in this passage of the Resurrection of the Unjust dead at the same time, does not negate this:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

or this:

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

Absence of evidence does not = evidence of absence.
 
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟414,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I believe Armegeddon involved the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad and the Great City is 1st century Jerusalem and we are now in the 1000 yr period. I don't know how Amills view it.

So you now believe that the events in 70AD involved with destruction fo Jerusalem were the fulfillment of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16? Seriously?

Rev 16:12-16
(12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Do you know what the great river Euphrates represents? What does the water was dried up signifies? Or do you dare to think the river Euphrates was evaporated in 70AD? Who were the kings of the east? Who are the frogs that come out of the MOUTHS of the dragon, beast and false prophets? What are the spirits of devils? Did Christ talk about a physical place called "Armageddon" in verse 16? Have you studied the word, Armageddon itself, which is a mount of Megiddo? Did you understand any spiritual signification concerning this place in the Old Testament?

So many questions that you did not answer this before with me the other day, but now you admit that the battle of Armageddon of Revelation 16 is linked to 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem? As of July 18, these questions about the context unanswered by you only proved that your interpretation for Revelation 16:16 remain refuted.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Once again it is the scripture being ignored that kills your Premill doctrine.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How long is an "hour", and how many is "all"?

Why did you ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?


What did Paul say below about the timing of both the living and the dead being judged?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Did Paul describe the fire coming at His Second Coming in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

.



You also ignore many passages in the OT that make your Amil doctrine an impossibility. It looks like you have no room to talk to me. You also ignore what I have submitted in this thread, such as post #306, which also makes your Amil doctrine an impossibility.

Clearly the 42 month reign of the beast is before the thousand years, and not post the thousand years instead, like Amils such as you wrongly claim. The beast in Revelation 13 has to still be alive and well when the bodily return of Christ happens, in order for Amil to even work.

Per the Premil version this beast would still be alive and well when Christ returns. You need to be dealing first with a post like #306, thus correcting my alleged incorrect conclusions, before you can be telling me what you have submitted trumps what I have submitted. Until I see you doing that first, it is clear to me you are avoiding posts like that because you can't actually prove and show I came to any incorrect conclusions. To do that would mean you would have to provide the correct conclusions instead. Except you can't do that because I already did it to begin with, I already provided the correct conclusions to come to.

Not all non Premils are avoiding posts such as #306 though, but you apparently are. And so is TribSigns.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So you now believe that the events in 70AD involved with destruction fo Jerusalem were the fulfillment of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16? Seriously?
Serious as a heart attack.
Do you know what the great river Euphrates represents?
What does the water was dried up signifies?
Who were the kings of the east?
The Euphrates River ran under the walls of Babylon. When the Persians attacked the city, they diverted the flow of water out of the river bed allowing them to march under the wall and take the city. Therefore, the fall of Babylon was a direct result of the drying-up of the Euphrates to allow for the passage of the kings of the east, the Persians, in 539 B.C.

John envisions a similar circumstance resulting in the fall of Jerusalem, spiritual Babylon. In this verse, the Euphrates is again dried up to allow the passage of the kings of the east. The kings of the east mentioned here are Sohaemus and Antiochus.

Both Sohaemus and Antiochus ruled kingdoms in eastern Turkey which was also the eastern edge of the Roman Empire. King Sohaemus ruled the kingdom of Sophene on the east bank of the Euphrates between Cappadocia and Armenia. Antiochus was the king of Commagene on the west bank of the Euphrates. These kings of the east offered their military and leadership to aid in the defeat of Jerusalem. In addition to the two kings mentioned above, three thousand Roman soldiers drawn from the legions guarding the Euphrates also reinforced Titus’ army on its road to Jerusalem. Thus the fall of Jerusalem, spiritual Babylon, mirrored the fall of ancient, historical Babylon: both cities having been conquered, at least in part, by the crossing of their enemies over the Euphrates.

Who are the frogs that come out of the MOUTHS of the dragon, beast and false prophets?What are the spirits of devils?
In the same way that the real Egypt was afflicted with a plague of frogs during the exodus, spiritual Egypt, representing Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8), was afflicted with spiritual frogs. These frogs are the spirits of demons performing miracles to gather together the kings for battle.

Tacitus says that many miracles occurred: “In the course of the months which Vespasian spent at Alexandria, waiting for the regular season of summer winds when the sea could be relied upon,[so he could sail to Rome to assume his seat as emperor] many miracles occurred.” According to the Roman historians Tacitus and Cassius Dio during Vespasian’s stay in Alexandria, a blind man and a man with a withered hand fell at the emperor’s feet begging to be healed. They claimed to have been told to do so by the god Serapis. Initially reluctant, Vespasian gave in to the fervent pleas of the surrounding crowd. Then according to these historians, Vespasian spit on the eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men. Recording this miracle, Tacitus writes:

With a smiling expression and surrounded by an expectant crowd of bystanders, he [Vespasian] did what was asked. Instantly the cripple recovered the use of his hand and the light of day dawned again upon his blind companion. Both incidents are still vouched for by eye-witnesses, though there is now nothing to be gained by lying.


This event is also recorded by the first century historian Suetonius in Lives of the Twelve Caesars After healing these two men, Vespasian visited the temple of Serapis, the god who allegedly had sent these men to be healed. Tacitus records his experience at the temple:

He [Vespasian] had everyone else excluded from the temple, and went in alone, fixing his mind on the deity. Happening to glance round, he caught sight of a leading Egyptian named Basilides standing behind him. Now he knew that this man was detained by illness far from Alexandria at a place several days’ journey distant. He inquired of the priests whether Basilides had entered the temple that day. He also inquired of those he met whether he had been seen in the city. Finally he sent off a party on horse, and ascertained that at the relevant time he had been eighty miles away. Thereupon he guessed that it was the god whom he had seen and that the reply to his query lay in the meaning of the name Basilides.

After healing the blind man and the cripple, Vespasian visited the temple of Serapis. Fearing a short reign ending with assassination, Vespasian arrived at the temple where he petitioned the god as to the length of his reign. Upon turning around to leave, he saw what appeared to be the priest Basilides. And with that, his question was answered: Basilides means “king’s son.” This vision calmed his fears. Perhaps he would not be assassinated but would live out his reign being succeeded in the natural way by his son? Interestingly, Vespasian did seemingly die of natural causes and was, in fact, succeeded by his son Titus.

These were, by no means, the only miracles that had occurred from the death of Nero until Vespasian’s ascension, the time of the sixth plague. During this period, called the year of the four Caesars, there were a multitude of recorded signs and miracles. Describing the signs preceding Nero’s death, Cassius Dio writes:

And little did he [Nero] reck [sic] that both sets of doors, those of the mausoleum of Augustus and those of his own bedchamber, opened of their own accord on one and the same night, or that in the Alban territory it rained so much blood that rivers of it flowed over the land . . .

With Nero the line of the Caesars became extinct. Among the many prophetic indications of this event two were outstanding. As Livia, years before, was returning to her home near Veii immediately after marrying Augustus, an eagle flew by and dropped into her lap a white pullet which it had pounced upon. Noticing a laurel twig in its beak she decided to keep the pullet for breeding and to plant the twig. Soon the pullet raised such a brood of chickens that the house is still known as ‘The Poultry’; moreover the twig took root and grew so luxuriously that the Caesars always plucked laurels from it to wear at their triumphs. It also became an imperial custom to cut new slips and plant these close by. Remarkably enough, the death of each Emperor was anticipated by the premonitory wilting of his laurel; and in the last year of Nero’s reign not only did every tree wither at the root, but the whole flock of poultry died. And, as if that were insufficient warning, a thunderbolt presently struck the Temple of the Caesars, decapitating all the statues at a stroke and dashed Augustus’s scepter from his hands.”


Other examples of signs and miracles performed by the demons in vs. 13 and 14 include:

There were alarming prodigies, too. News of these flowed from a number of independent sources. At the entrance to the Capitol, it was said, the reins of the chariot in which Victory rides had slipped from her grasp; an apparition of superhuman size had suddenly emerged from the Chapel of Juno; on a sunny, windless day the statue of Julius Caesar on the Tiber Island had turned round so as to face east instead of west [symbolizing the fact that Vespasian who was in Judea to the east would supplant Vitellius from the west]; an ox had spoken in Etruria; there had been monstrous animal births and numerous signs and wonders.

Thus Galba was declared emperor, just as Tiberius had foretold when he said to him that he also should have a taste of the sovereignty. The event was likewise foretold by unmistakable omens. For it seemed to him in a vision that Fortune told him that she had now remained by him for a long time, yet no one would grant her admission into his house, and that, if she should be barred out much longer, she would take up her abode with somebody else. At about this very time, also, ships full of weapons under the guidance of no human hand came to anchor off the coast of Spain. And a mule brought forth young, an event which, as had been foretold, was to be a sign to him of the supreme power. Again, the hair of a boy who was offering a sacrifice turned white, whereupon the seers declared that the sovereignty held by the younger man [Galba’s predecessor, Nero] should be transferred to the old age of Galba.

While he was behaving in this way, evil omens occurred. A comet was seen, and the moon, contrary to precedent, appeared to suffer two eclipses, being obscured on the fourth and on the seventh day. Also people saw two suns at once, one in the west weak and pale, and one in the east brilliant and powerful. On the Capitol many huge footprints were seen, presumably of some spirits that had descended from it. The soldiers who slept there on the night in question said that the temple of Jupiter had opened of itself with great clangour [sic] and that some of the guards had been so terrified that they fainted. At the same time that this happened Vespasian, who was engaged in warfare with the Jews, learned of the rebellion of Vitellis and of Otho and was deliberating what he should do.”


Have you studied the word, Armageddon itself, which is a mount of Megiddo?
The word Armageddon, Har-Mageddon, is commonly supposed to represent the Mountain of Megiddo better known as Mt. Carmel. The Roman kings, generals and their armies gathered in the coastal city of Caesarea immediately before marching south to attack Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Caesarea is about eight miles east of Mt. Carmel, and Mt. Carmel is clearly visible from Caearea. Through this region ran a highway where goods were traded between Egypt, Asia Minor and the Middle East. This highway passed near Caesarea and continued northeast along the edge of Mt. Carmel through the Valley of Jezreel. It is interesting to note that Jezreel Valley where Mt. Megiddo is located and the Roman army met before beginning their siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was called “the great plain of Legio (meaning Legion)” after the second Jewish revolt (A.D. 132-35).”

This verse indicates that the kings would meet at Armageddon though it is important to notice that no explicit mention is made in this verse or elsewhere of a battle at Mt. Megiddo itself. Therefore, the popular notion of the Battle of Armageddon at Mt. Megiddo is a teaching without meaningful Biblical support.
Did you understand any spiritual signification concerning this place in the Old Testament?
Yes.
The derivation of Megiddo from Armageddon comes from the similarity between the common transliteration of Megiddo, Μαγεδών, and Armageddon, Ἁρμαγεδών, in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Bible. But John says that the kings will gather together in a place that “in Hebrew is called Armageddon.” In other words, the true etymology of the term Armageddon must be derived from the Hebrew language, not a Greek transliteration. The Har- of Har-Mageddon is the Hebrew word for mountain. The –geddon portion of Har-Mageddon means “attack, cut, go in troops or throngs.” Thus the meaning of Armageddon is “Mountain of Troops” or “Mountain of [mustering] Troops.” Keep in mind that mountain is a Biblical symbol for a city or kingdom (Psalms 2:6; 48:1; Isaiah 66:20; Jeremiah 51:25; Joel 3:17; etc).

Skipping ahead to the following verses, one can see that the battle actually takes place in Babylon. Thus this “City of [mustering] Troops” is spiritual Babylon which is Jerusalem. In light of this etymological evidence, the most learned Christian scholars have now dismissed the notion of a battle at Mt. Megiddo in favor of a battle at Jerusalem. This belief is becoming increasingly more and more common even among dispensationalists. (GASP!) The fact that Jerusalem, called many things throughout this prophetic series of visions, is given this title is not surprising since it is at Jerusalem that the Roman army and the remaining Jewish rebels converged to face one another during the climax of the Jewish War. This term has an intentionally ambiguous etymology in order to allude to both the vicinity of Megiddo, where the Romans met before their attack on Jerusalem, and Jerusalem itself, their final destination.

You will, no doubt, dismiss this detailed account, move the goalposts, dig in your heels and willfully ignore the evidence presented.

That's OK, I post for the edification of our readers who are truly seeking, not to change the hardened hearted.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's OK, I post for the edification of our readers who are truly seeking, not to change the hardened hearted.[/B]


How would you be interpreting some of these same events in Revelation, if say the writings of these historians, they were all lost instead, thus no longer even available today? Would you still be coming to the same conclusions you presently are?
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Pretty much any conclusions I come to about anything are solely mine from my own reading of things. If Dispensationalists are coming to similar conclusions, why does that matter? I'm not listening to them or getting any teachings from them to begin with.

Do your conclusions line up with Scripture? Are you going to listen to your own conclusions or are you going to listen to Scripture?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do your conclusions line up with Scripture? Are you going to listen to your own conclusions or are you going to listen to Scripture?

I'm not claiming all of my conclusions might perfectly align with Scripture, since I'm still humble enough to admit I likely have some things wrong here and there. Maybe even numerous things wrong here and there for all I know. Can non Premils admit the same thing? But as to the topic of this thread though, I fail to see how any of my conclusions are failing to line up with Scripture. The 42 months the beast is allowed to continue, this is before the thousand years, not after the thousand years. Therefore, a position such as Amil is not even valid in that case.
 
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟414,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
This is where I feel chronology is helpful.

Keep in mind... the WHOLE book of Revelation is NOT to be understood in Chronology order. I have explained this before.

Let's start with the 5th seal first.

Hold on...

The 42 months of Satan's reign comes after the 1,260 days testimony of Two Witnesses. This is the same period that the woman has fled to the wilderness.

Rev 12:6
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 11:3-8
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
(6) These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The 1,260 days is a symbolic period that the woman (church), where the Two Witnesses can be found, was fed with Gospel into the whole world. It takes time for the church to grow in the world. The 1,260 days is only a symbol to represent this growth - not the actual length of time. Once the church has accomplished their task (by secured all Elect God intended to seal has been sealed, Revelation 7:1-4), the beast will then come out of the bottomless pit to overcome her and kill her. Therefore the 42 months "IS" a great tribulation FOR the Saints (Two Witnesses) who were STILL IN the city (woman) battling the words of Satanic coming out of the mouths of false prophets and christs IN the city where they will be KILLED. (ie. in the streets of the city). Once the woman becomes a harlot, God commanded his people (two Witneses) to come out of her to avoid the incoming plagues from God as He judges the woman.

Rev 11:8-12
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
(12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 18:3-5
(3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

This is spiritual awakened for the Two Witnesses to start to be able to "see" the abomination of desolation in the church (that Jesus warned about in Matthew 24:15-16 but only those who readeth let him understand (by the spirit of life!)) and are moved by the Spirit to come out of church as God is about to judge her with plagues. Just like God did with Lot in days of Sodom.

The 42 months is also symbolics that represents Satan's reign AFTER he come out the bottomless pit to to be used by God to bring desolation to His unfaithful congregation (woman). This is how the woman will be destroyed by the beast.

Rev 17:16-18
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


t is God's doing to have his unfaithful church being deliveryed to the beast to be destroyed! Didn't you read the Scripture?

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The holy city makes up of TWO groups of worshippers. One is true Elect within the Temple, and the other is the professed Christians. The professed Christians in the court are the ones who professed Christians but are not saved or part of the Temple itself which is why they are not measured (sealed). This is why when 42 months comes, God will give them up to the Gentiles (unsaved) to be deceived and judged.

To answer your "souls" of Seal 5, the souls are who died during the 1,260 days ministry of the Two Witnesses. The "fellowservants also and their brethren," are the ones who are still alive during the 42 months of Beast reign who will spiritually kill them as stated:

Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The Two Witnesses truthful testimony during the 42 months of Beast reign is being killed (silenced) because the true Elect has refused to worship the image of the beast. In other words, they won't worship or buy the lying doctrines coming out of the false prophets and Christs like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, etc..to the point that their truthful testimony fell on deaf ears because no one in the church wants to hear the Truth anymore and accused them of being judgmentive or unloving.

Rev 13:15
(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

So it is the professed christians who have killed the True Christians, just like the Jews did with Jesus Christ! Selah! The professed christians are the unfaithful people of the congregation no longer wants to hear the truth or follow the image of Christ but the image of the beast instead! Let me ask you, what does God do with THIS PEOPLE not unfaithful? Didn't you read the Scripture?

2Th 2:8-12
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


THIS is the judgment of the harlot where God allowed the professed Christians to be deceived by the beast and gave their kingdom (church) to the beast! Why? Because they did not love the truth that comes out of the mouth of Two Witnesses and follow the false prophets instead! That is why God called his True Christians to come OUT of her before God sends plagues upon the church. Do you even know what these plagues are? :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How would you be interpreting some of these same events in Revelation, if say the writings of these historians, they were all lost instead, thus no longer even available today? Would you still be coming to the same conclusions you presently are?

Yes.
Historical records only support biblical conclusions... they do not create them in a vacuum.

The Bible interprets itself, and the Bible cements the fulfillment of these events to the 1st century.

I have enough Biblical evidence alone to support my conclusions, the Historical record is merely an interesting anecdote, but ultimately powerless in its ability to confirm Biblical Fulfillment.
The Bible does that all by itself.
 
Upvote 0