How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

[ewq1938]

Maybe you've missed that Revelation is symbolic and NOT literal.

It has both literal and symbolic. Satan being bound and imprisoned is literal and the angel that does it is also a literal angel.

 

[parousia70]

No, my contention is that you don't understand His message to Sardis.

Well, Apparently you don't believe it was a message applicable to Sardis at all....

I accept it at face value.
If I were a member of the 1st century Church at Sardis, I would have believed What Jesus said to me in
that letter. I would have believed it DIRECTLY applied TO ME there, for there is NOTHING in the text to indicate otherwise.

You certainly have not shown anything to indicate otherwise.

Can you?

 

[parousia70]

I am waiting for your position on the CONTEXT of Revelation 16. Let hear this out from you if you want to justify the battle of Armageddon of Revelation 16 being fulfilled in 70AD.

The seven plagues of Revelation 16 are a very accurate description of several notable events throughout the course of the Jewish War. (Obviously lol)

The pouring out of the seven bowls of Revelation 16 is a reflection of the pouring out of drink offerings during Pentecost. During Pentecost in A.D. 66, Josephus and Tacitus record the departure from the Temple of the seven angels with the seven bowls. Immediately thereafter, the Jewish War began.

During this war the seas and rivers turned red with blood as predicted in the second and third bowls. A multitude of miraculous signs were witnessed in A.D. 69, one year before the climactic siege of Jerusalem in fulfillment of Revelation 16:14: “They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle . . . .”
Amidst these miraculous signs, the kings of the east, Sohaemus and Antiochus, crossed the Euphrates to meet the other Roman forces near Mt. Megiddo (Armageddon) as indicated in Revelation 16:12 and 16.

During this time a great thunderstorm and earthquake simultaneously rocked Jerusalem while both Rome and Jerusalem were divided by separate and concurrent three-way civil wars as predicted in the seventh bowl in Revelation 16:18-19: “Then there came flashes of lightening, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. . . . [and; T]he great city split into three parts.”

When the Romans arrived in Jerusalem in A.D. 70, Roman catapults hurled boulders into the city. These stones were white and weighed about one hundred pounds as predicted in Revelation 16: 21: “From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men.”

 

[mkgal1]

@DavidPT - about your question about the loosing of satan? I think this post in another thread makes sense:

It is past, and is speaking of when Satan deceived the nations into persecuting the infant Church, that both the Roman Empire via Nero Caesar and the Jewish tribes spread throughout the Empire particularly in Asia Minor.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You have no clues!
So you now believe that the events in 70AD involved with destruction fo Jerusalem were the fulfillment of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16? Seriously?

Did Christ talk about a physical place called "Armageddon" in verse 16? Have you studied the word, Armageddon itself, which is a mount of Megiddo? Did you understand any spiritual signification concerning this place in the Old Testament?
Please tell me what you understand in Scripture and spare me from some silly preterism doctored videos of yours.

How about the Valley of Hinnom located on the south side of Jerusalem in 70ad.........

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

Axiom on the book of Revelation
DAY/VALLEY OF SLAUGHTER POST

Jeremiah 7:
31 “And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.
32 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,
but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room.

Jeremiah 19:
2 “And go out to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the Potsherd Gate; and proclaim there the words that I will tell you,
6 “therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

Isa 30:25
There will be on every high mountain And on every high hill
Rivers and streams of waters,
In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The most ancient of these walls was remarkable for its great strength, and was, moreover, erected on a hanging rock, and fortified by sixty towers. on the middle wall there were fourteen towers only ; but on the third, which was also distinguished by the extraordinary merit of its architecture, there were no less than ninety. The celebrated tower of Psephinos, before which Titus at first encamped, was erected on this latter wall, and even excelled it in the superior style of its architecture : it was seventy cubits high and had eight angles, each of which commanded most extensive and beautiful prospects. In clear weather, the spectator had from them a view of the Mediterranean sea, of Arabia, and of the whole extent of the Jewish dominions. Besides this there were three other towers of great magnitude, named Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne. The two former, famed for their strength and grandeur, were nearly ninety cubits high

James 5:
5 ye luxuriate upon the land and ye squander, ye nourish the hearts of ye, in Day of-Slaughter/sfaghV <4967>;
8 be ye patient! also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

Reve 18:24
and in Her, blood of prophets and of saints was found,
and of all the ones having been slain/slaughtered/e-sfag-men-wn/ <4969> (5772) upon the land.

Revelation 19
17 And I perceived one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered<4863>! into the Supper<1173> of the Great God.
18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings......[Zephaniah 1:17/Ezekiel 39:19]
==================================

 

[TribulationSigns]

Can you?

Uh-uh. A better question will be whether you really understand what the Spirit is saying to the Seven Churches. Let us find out.

Rev 1:4-6
(4) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
(5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Who is "us" in verse 5? Was this really a message to the members of the 1st century Church that they were the only ones made kings and priests in His Kingdom, and not us? Think again because you do not understand the mystery.

Rev 1:20
(20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The number seven in Scripture signifies completeness or the totality of whatever is in view. The Lord Himself deciphers the mystery of the symbol of the seven stars and seven candlesticks (lampstands) in His Word so that there can be NO MISUNDERSTANDING in this uncovering. The stars He reveals are actually the MESSENGERS of the churches so the message is for the toatlity of the messengers of the church. Not just first century members. He is talking about His Whole Congregation in His Right Hand. He did not talk about believers in Asia Minor. Selah!

And one more thing that disprove your belief concerning seven messengers of the church.

Rev 3:9-10
(9) Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

First, unfortunately, you do not understand what the spirit is saying to the seven churches. The true Jews, as God defined, are those who are the seed of Christ. Thus those who will be made of the synagogue of Satan, which they say they are Jews, and are not, are defined by God, not by man or your favorite man, Josephus. You need to search this out with the rest of Scripture:

Rom 2:28-29
(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The true Jew as defined by God rather than man. Note also who is NOT a Jew as defined by God. He is talking about professed Christians. Selah! So do you honestly think this applies only to the first century members of the congregation to fit your flawed doctrine about Jerusalem 70AD. LOL.

So no, God was not talking about First Century believers because it was not their time. The judgment of the harlot and the "hour" of temptation upon the WHOLE WORLD did not occur in 70AD because the church barely started since Pentecost. The trail only will take place AFTER the building of the New Testament Congregation (Seven Church) is finished per 7:1-4. Obviously it was not finish building in the 1st Century!

 

[DavidPT]

Well, Apparently you don't believe it was a message applicable to Sardis at all....

I accept it at face value.
If I were a member of the 1st century Church at Sardis, I would have believed What Jesus said to me in
that letter. I would have believed it DIRECTLY applied TO ME there, for there is NOTHING in the text to indicate otherwise.

You certainly have not shown anything to indicate otherwise.

Can you?

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

But if this applies to His 2nd coming, how was He supposed to do that at any time He chooses to? Obviously there has to be an appointed time and day for the 2nd coming to take place.

It might be similar to the following logic.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

If all of these plagues have already been fulfilled in the past, and that someone today heareth these words, thus then adds to them, how can this part be fulfilled on them----God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book---if these plagues are already ancient history?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Uh-uh. A better question will be whether you really understand what the Spirit is saying to the Seven Churches. Let us find out.

And you do? Hi pot, say hello to kettle........
7 Churches study

Post 342?

Those 7 Assemblies make for a fascinating study in themselves.....I translated them some time back here on CF if any are interested, and any feedback is greatly appreciated.....

Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches

Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
EPHESUS
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
SMYRNA
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
PERGAMUM
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
THYATIRA
Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
SARDIS
Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
PHILADELPHIA UNFINISHED

Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
===============================
Preston Eby commentaries on them..........

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series 29
“What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyratira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea…the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches” (Rev. 1:11,20).

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series 31
“Unto the Messenger of the church of Ephesus write! These things saith He that holdeth the seven stars in His right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks” (Rev. 2:1).......

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Of the seven churches, two of them received no indictment from the Lord, nor were they told to repent. The church in Smyrna was known as the “suffering church” because of their severe persecutions, and they were not told to repent. The Lord saw their trouble and tribulation, their poverty and imprisonment, their unswerving steadfastness and great faithfulness, and they did not need to be told to repent. It was in their hearts to repent when the need arose, for the work of God ran deep in their lives. Considering all they would suffer, the Lord said to them, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Rev. 2:10). Another church against which the Lord laid no charge, nor did He tell them to repent, was the church in Philadelphia. The Lord saw that they kept His word and had not denied His name, or nature. Because they kept the word of His patience, by which the kingdom of God is inherited, He gave them wonderful promises.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church in Pergamos write!…” (Rev. 2:12).
The third church was the church in Pergamos. Pergamos means “elevated,” such as a citadel, tower, or an earthly elevation.
Pergamos was one of the most beautiful cities of the ancient world. The great altar dedicated to the chief Greek saviour-god, Zeus, was located in front of the temple of Athena which stood one thousand feet up on the conical hill where Pergamos was situated.................

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church in Thyatira write!…” (Rev. 2:18).
“These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass; .............
The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches, although it is interesting to note that the church there is the smallest of the seven, and the city of Thyatira is the smallest of the seven cities.
Thyatira means “sweet perfume of sacrifice” and when you study this word it speaks of a perfume that sends forth its fragrance as the result of bruising, crushing, or breaking................

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars…” (Rev. 3:1).
prince of joy?
There is a strange situation in the church at Sardis, the church to whom the Lord revealed Himself as the One who has the seven spirits of God. Though the church at Sardis had the reputation of being a LIVE church…it did not appear that way to the Lord. “Thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead,” the Lord said, and even the little life they had was close to death. ..............

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church in Philadelphia write!…” (Rev. 3:7).
The Greek word for Philadelphia is Philadelphos and its meaning is “one who loves his brother.” Philadelphia was a young city founded and colonized by people from Pergamos.
Of the seven churches, two of them received no indictment from the Lord, nor were they told to repent. The church in Smyrna was known as the “suffering church” because of their severe persecutions, and they were not told to repent......

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church of the Laodiceans write…” (Rev. 3:14).
It is interesting to note that the name Laodicea is composed of lao and dika, meaning “the people’s judgment” or “consensus of opinion as to what is right!” Other variations of rendering are: “power of the laity,” “the voice of the people,” “the people’s rights,” or “justice of the peoples.” Its name designates it as the democratic church, in which everything is swayed and decided by popular opinion, clamor, and voting, either within the church, or by adapting to the opinions, standards, and pressures of society without. Hence, Laodicea is a carnal, compromising, pusillanimous, self-righteous, and self-sufficient church!

 

[TribulationSigns]

How about the Valley of Hinnom located on the south side of Jerusalem in 70ad...

Is that the best you got? Did God told you to look for physical valley for physical fulfillment? Is that how we understand Revelation 16? Chuckle!

And I see that you still have not explain the context of Revelation 16 I asked several time. What about the River Euphrates? Water dried up? Way for the Kings of the East? The unclean spirits like frogs? Out of the mouths? All of this is what brought kings of the earth AND THE WHOLE WORLD to a place called Armageddon where your best answer was the valley of Hinnom? Geez!

Come on. Answer these questions first before you make a fool of yourself by playing pin the tail on the donkey on some physical valleys on the map of Jerusalem. No matter how hard you try to insist it took place physically in Jerusalem , you are still wrong "IF you cannot explain the context of Revelation 16.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Is that the best you got? Did God told you to look for physical valley for physical fulfillment? Is that how we understand Revelation 16? Chuckle!

Nope. It was the 1st century Hebrews Jews Jesus was talking about concerning the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem.....
Let me refresh yer memory

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
==================
Are these spiritual or physical battles Jesus is talking about here in the 70ad Olivet Discourse?

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

 

[TribulationSigns]

And you do? Hi pot, say hello to kettle...

Is that your best defense against my position? I see that you can't gainsay or resist to my testimony. Well, the Lord Judges. My testimony vs your testimony. Who is right?

Post 342?

This is a very popular misconception in theology! Just like people thought the seven vials represent things happening in stages at different times, one taking place after the other. Likewise, the same misconception that some, like you, have that the seven churches of Asia represents seven different periods or dividing into a groups, some apply to first century while the other apply to the future with one left (Philadelphia) reserved for today. Seriously?! Based on Scripture support do you have to justify your dividing of the stars this way?! I do believe that you remain in err.

Like I have explained before many times, God often uses the number seven to signify "completeness," rather than to declare something is seven particular, different things. For example the Seven Spirits of God. Are there seven spirits of God, or is there only ONE spirit of God? See, the number 7 signifies COMPLETENESS in its ministry all over the world. Why does the Living Creatures in the midst of the throne have 7 eyes and 7 horns? Humm? Why are there 7 seals on the book in Revelation? Why are there 7 lamps of fire burning before the throne? Why are there 7 stars in the right hand of Christ? And so on and so forth, is because the number 7 signifies the completeness of whatever is in view! Think again!

Let me ask you something... what does the 7 heads of the Beast refers to? The heads signify authority so seven heads of the beast refers to the completeness of his authority at that time, Selah! Likewise with those with 7 stars in Christ's hand signified the completeness of His messengers of His Congregation. Obviously Christ was not talking about first century church here, but the completeness of His church as a whole! Likewise the 7 vials signify the completeness of God's final judgment poured out on the earth, because of the prayers of the saints. It does not means the judgment will be poured in 7 different stages or times.

Also, God says something in one chapter, and will say the exact same thing, with different symbolic imagery in another chapter. Revelation is in no way chronological in its order of things revealed in imagery. For example, Christ is in the church in Revelation 2, the sealing of Israel ends in Revelation 7, and Christ is born in Revelation 12. So keep that in mind!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nope. It was the 1st century Hebrews Jews Jesus was talking about concerning the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem.....

Hebrews Jews?! Like I said, you did not understand what the spirit said to the seven churches because you believe the MYSTERY of the seven stars and seven lamp stands represents the Hebrews Jews of the First Century? LOL!! No, you do not know what you talked about.

Let me refresh yer memory

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
==================
Are these spiritual or physical battles Jesus is talking about here in the 70ad Olivet Discourse?

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

You Preterists can quote these verses and insisted the prophecies were for the First Century people all day until your faces turn blue! Sorry, but you still do err! This was not how Christ prophesied this way! He was speaking to His church through them!

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

More military history garbage from preteristarchive site for one purpose. To promote their false doctrine. What they have is NOT biblical history.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hebrews Jews?! Like I said, you did not understand what the spirit said to the seven churches because you believe the MYSTERY of the seven stars and seven lamp stands represents the Hebrews Jews of the First Century? LOL!! No, you do not know what you talked about.
You Preterists can quote these verses and insisted the prophecies were for the First Century people all day until your faces turn blue! Sorry, but you still do err! This was not how Christ prophesied this way! He was speaking to His church through them!
More military history garbage from preteristarchive site for one purpose. To promote their false doctrine. What they have is NOT biblical history.

Jesus said the same thing about the corrupt murderous Judean rulers about 40 yrs before God sent the Roman army upon them in 70ad.

John 5:39
"Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

2Peter 3:16
As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]
==================
Please visit my John 11 thread........

John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

This became fulfilled in 70ad.........

John 11:48
"If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans<4514> and they shall be taking away<142> of Us, and the Place and the Nation."

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye murder/efoneusate <5407> (5656) the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21
And not they reform out of their murders/fonwn <5408>, nor from their sorceries,...........

 

[parousia70]

Who is "us" in verse 5? Was this really a message to the members of the 1st century Church that they were the only ones made kings and priests in His Kingdom, and not us? Think again because you do not understand the mystery.
...So no, God was not talking about First Century believers because it was not their time.

Unfortunately for your position, You have no scriptural instruction to EXCLUDE the original receivers to whom the letters were DIRECTLY addressed and FIRST delivered to, from PRIMARY application of the message sent TO THEM.

If in fact it did apply to MORE people as well, there is NOTHING in the text that instructs you to REMOVE, REDACT, IGNORE, or OPPOSE the direct application of the text to the original receivers they way your position requires you do.

You only have opinion and man made tradition as your foundation for altering the scripture to fit your view, since your view is in direct opposition to the text itself.

Altering your view to fit the text is the correct solution.

 

[DavidPT]

NM

 

[The Righterzpen]

As far as resurrection events, there was Christ's, then the saints that bodily arose soon after, then the first resurrection and the final resurrection seen in Revelation 20. That doesn't add up to 2 resurrection events. It sounds like at least 4 resurrection events to me.

Except the Scripture only speaks of 2 resurrections. So are you going to listen to it or Dispensational teaching? Which one's right; the Bible or dispensationalism?

 

[DavidPT]

Why should I?

In order to try and debunk what all I submitted. That would be one good reason you should. I don't mind if you try and do that. In the event I'm wrong I would want someone to debunk it. Clearly what I submitted in post #306 proves Premil not Amil. Until someone proves otherwise that post proves Premil not Amil, period. But this is hardly the first time I and others have debunked Amil. Amil has been debunked numerous times over and over again. I lost count it's been so many times.

BTW, now you have to live up to your new avatar. That avatar depicts someone not afraid to take on any challenge. I challenge you to prove anything in post #306 is incorrect. That requires someone going through that post and pointing out what conclusions are incorrect, then providing the correct conclusions in their place.

 

[DavidPT]

Except the Scripture only speaks of 2 resurrections. So are you going to listen to it or Dispensational teaching? Which one's right; the Bible or dispensationalism?

Pretty much any conclusions I come to about anything are solely mine from my own reading of things. If Dispensationalists are coming to similar conclusions, why does that matter? I'm not listening to them or getting any teachings from them to begin with.

 

[DavidPT]

The seven plagues of Revelation 16 are a very accurate description of several notable events throughout the course of the Jewish War. (Obviously lol)

The pouring out of the seven bowls of Revelation 16 is a reflection of the pouring out of drink offerings during Pentecost. During Pentecost in A.D. 66, Josephus and Tacitus record the departure from the Temple of the seven angels with the seven bowls. Immediately thereafter, the Jewish War began.

During this war the seas and rivers turned red with blood as predicted in the second and third bowls. A multitude of miraculous signs were witnessed in A.D. 69, one year before the climactic siege of Jerusalem in fulfillment of Revelation 16:14: “They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle . . . .”
Amidst these miraculous signs, the kings of the east, Sohaemus and Antiochus, crossed the Euphrates to meet the other Roman forces near Mt. Megiddo (Armageddon) as indicated in Revelation 16:12 and 16.

During this time a great thunderstorm and earthquake simultaneously rocked Jerusalem while both Rome and Jerusalem were divided by separate and concurrent three-way civil wars as predicted in the seventh bowl in Revelation 16:18-19: “Then there came flashes of lightening, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. . . . [and; T]he great city split into three parts.”

When the Romans arrived in Jerusalem in A.D. 70, Roman catapults hurled boulders into the city. These stones were white and weighed about one hundred pounds as predicted in Revelation 16: 21: “From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men.”

Anyone can come up with creative theories like that. Kind of reminds me of how creative some are being about Revelation 18 when they are seeing the United States in the context, mainly New York City.

It might not be what the context actually involves, but at least they are being very creative. I don't see where that would be a good thing though.

 

[mkgal1]

Sam Storms asks this question: "Why does the PM argue that anastasis (“resurrection”) must mean physical resurrection, although it occurs nowhere in Revelation outside chapter 20, but ignore thronos which never in Revelation refers to anything other than a heavenly throne (and that, in 40 texts!)?

Just something to consider.

The martyrs already under the altar are told that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. This seems to tell us that the little season the martyrs are told to rest, this is when, back on earth, their fellowservants also and their brethren, are persecuted by the beast in Revelation 13, where many of them will end up martyrs. IOW this little season some are resting during, this runs parallel with the 42 month reign of the beast back on earth.

I think you're right to see it that way. I wouldn't exactly call it a "reign of the beast" though, because God is ALWAYS in ultimate power - but He "looses" the destroyer (satan) for His purposes and His glory (in my belief).

How does this connect to Revelation 20:4 then?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Obviously, what I have underlined, all of these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, IOW during the little season the other martyrs are resting during. We could then conclude, since the 5th seal and Revelation 20 both mention a little season, these are one and the same then. It might sound like this should be the conclusion to come to except for a cpl of things though.

1---there is only one 42 month reign of the beast, and that it has to occur when satan is not in the pit, thus can't for sure occur during the thousand years.

2----the 42 month reign of the beast has to be followed by the 2nd coming, thus the 42 month reign of the beast has to happen in the literal end of this age.


3----Revelation 20:4 clearly and undeniably places the 42 month reign of the beast as already fulfilled and in the past when satan is loosed after the thousand years. Therefore the only logical place the 42 month reign of the beast can possibly fit is before the thousand years. This is clearly Premil in that case. Amil couldn't even remotely work with this. Yet Amils tell Premils that Premil is not the correct conclusion to be arriving at, while John in Revelation 20:4 is clearly telling us otherwise.

This does seem convincing to me - that the 42 month period lines up to when satan is "loosed" but it's AFTER the thousand years are completed. But why are you believing it ONLY fits BEFORE the thousand years when Scripture places it AFTER? That's the only part of your conclusion that I'm seeing as being in conflict with Scripture (the timing). Revelation 20:3 is irreconcilable with your conclusion:

Rev 20:3 ~ And he cast him into the Abyss, and shut and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed. After these things it is necessary for him to be released for a little time.​

As I have clearly demonstrated, the 42 month reign of the beast has to proceed the thousand years, not follow it. And Revelation 20:4 undeniably proves it, yet you all will remain in denial, regardless. You can count on it. Meaning any non Premil who places the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age. Since there are apparently also Preterists who feel the 42 month reign of the beast has already been fulfilled, my comment about being in denial would not apply in that case. I thought I should maybe make that clear since TLLJ's last post reminded me that not all non Premils place the 42 month reign in the end of this age.

Not so fast. Maybe it "clearly" lines up in your mind.....but there are still serious problems with your conclusion. You've not demonstrated that the 42 month time of "loosing" has to proceed the thousand years when Scripture says just the opposite. Rev 20:4 doesn't "undeniably prove it" it actually REFUTES that conclusion when read with the verse just before it.

Rev 20:3 ~ And he cast him into the Abyss, and shut and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed. After these things it is necessary for him to be released for a little time.​