How can one be a committed Democrat and Orthodox?

All4Christ

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Something to keep in mind: All churches have nominal members. Some Orthodox are not practicing. They shouldn’t be allowed to commune without confession if they aren’t practicing. It is important to not lump those who do not practice and do not attend Church, partake of the Eucharist, etc with the rest of the Church. A moral apostasy won’t happen due to nominal Orthodox Christians who just consider themselves to be ethnically Orthodox (but are not practicing).

I’m curious as to where you are seeing these situations happen. You say that you don’t see priests addressing it. What scenario is that? Someone who doesn’t attend a parish? Someone who is teaching others to be not follow Orhodox moral teachings? Someone who doesn’t say anything in church, so that the priest isn’t aware of it? As I said earlier, your experience is drastically different than mine - in personal experience, I don’t see the same issues you described.
 
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TheLostCoin

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Something to keep in mind: All churches have nominal members. Some Orthodox are not practicing. They shouldn’t be allowed to commune without confession if they aren’t practicing. It is important to not lump those who do not practice and do not attend Church, partake of the Eucharist, etc with the rest of the Church. A moral apostasy won’t happen due to nominal Orthodox Christians who just consider themselves to be ethnically Orthodox (but are not practicing).

I’m curious as to where you are seeing these situations happen. You say that you don’t see priests addressing it. What scenario is that? Someone who doesn’t attend a parish? Someone who is teaching others to be not follow Orhodox moral teachings? Someone who doesn’t say anything in church, so that the priest isn’t aware of it? As I said earlier, your experience is drastically different than mine - in personal experience, I don’t see the same issues you described.

I don't know, I guess I'm just paranoid that what happened to the Roman Catholic Church will happen in a similar process to the Eastern Orthodox Church, where when in a culture that is different from the culture of the institution, the domestic culture erodes the institutional culture.

I fear that in countries whose base of operations is within the culture and sphere of Western Europe, like the Ecumenical Patriarch (I think the Greeks are in the middle because they have Mount Athos as their foundation, and they preserve the Culture of the Church in greater isolation), the Culture of the Church will be eroded by the domestic culture in one of two ways.

1. Particularly in Diaspora communities, but not just in Diaspora communities and in domestic communities as well, a number of Churches lose all spiritual life and meaning of Sacraments, and only become proxies to meet people of similar skin color and language, slowly multiplies like a virus and reaches the top levels from the bottom, which causes the Church to fall from standing.
2. The Culture of the Church is eroded piecemeal by piecemeal due to the overpowering nature of the domestic culture that isn't their own, and a point is reached where the Church isn't recognized from what it once was.

That's not to mention there are certain people with malicious interests whose goal is to remove any semblance of "orthodox" Christianity (that is, denominations which hold fundamental moral and dogmatic tenants of Orthodox Christianity) from the world. Not to go all Illuminati or Freemason conspiracy theory, which I tend to reject as lacking in sufficient evidence, but certainly when you have people like George Soros who use their billions of dollars to organize fund Liberal causes, such as organizing Antifa counter-protests and FEMEN in Ukraine, these attempts to make the culture of the Western world more Liberal than it already is clearly have a malicious goal which conflicts with the goals of Christ's Holy Church.

Most people seem to think that the Roman Catholic Church was transformed merely by the imperialistic structure of the RCC, where the Pope is the emperor of the empire and has supreme authority over everything. However, while this is absolutely true, it's not as though the Roman Catholic Church follows the Coptic tradition where they cast lots to determine the next Primate. Thus, the question becomes - how could it be possible that someone like Paul VI, with quite wrong opinions (opinions that go beyond the blatant heterodoxy and paganism of Pius IX, and betray some fundamental tenets of "orthodox" Christianity), could be elected to that position with full support of the Cardinals?

And this process where the anti-orthodox culture slowly erodes what "orthodoxy" they had, such that we see the end result, terrifies me for the Orthodox Church, particularly in light of prophecies where "heretics will seize power in the Church," or prophecies which state "there will come a time where you can't go to Church to receive Communion."

I see this similar process possibly occurring in the Orthodox Church thus.
This primarily happens when the Jurisdiction has a foundation in Western Europe. It is easier to fight back when you have some direct connection to an Eastern European country that is or is allied with Russia, or your foundation is something like Mount Athos where their culture is more isolated than Greek culture, because if the culture of Western Europe tries to consume the Orthodoxy of that Orthodox Church, the hierarchy or source of those countries can intervene and tell the Bishops and the Priests to get their act together, if not then threaten excommunication. However, when you have a situation where your base of operations is located in Western Europe or it's satellite cultures, such as the Ecumenical Patriarch, I feel that there is no certain safety of these Churches from the culture of Western Europe.

If indifferentism and the valuing of domestic culture over Church Culture, viewing the Church as nothing more than a proxy to find people with the same skin tone and voice, is not what causes the erosion of Orthodoxy in these Churches little by little, it will be the erosion of the culture of the Church piecemeal by piecemeal, where gradually at once the whole Church will succumb to it.

How many of you think that monarchy is even comparable to democracy? How many of you think about having more than 2 kids? How many of you think about the validity of the Separation of Church and State? How many believe that Monasticism is a path you would even consider pursuing?

These ideas of which you hold are a product of not your religious upbringing, but the domestic culture in which you live. Soon enough, you will think it's lunacy to think that a government should outlaw same-sex marriage, to outlaw abortions, to not go to war in the name of "individual rights," etc. And this is because these opinions are formed by your own culture, not the Church's Culture.

Persecution here is not as violent and outright as in the Roman Empire, the Middle East, or in the Soviet Union where you can preserve your culture's values and opinions within the Catacombs of that culture - but here, because we have the freedom to practice our religion, surely the culture will be more virulent in trying to dismantle what is contradictory to the domestic culture.

Thus, the domestic culture will more easily penetrate Churches where the Holy Spirit is absent, or penetrate Churches slowly but surely as the domestic culture slowly but surely modifies the mindset and thinking of subsequent hierarchies.

The only way to fight this erosion is to keep on fighting and try to correct heterodox opinions as much as possible, and while this does generally happen, I feel that in many cases it doesn't, due to peer pressure - it's something I fail at often as well.
 
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All4Christ

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I don't know, I guess I'm just paranoid that what happened to the Roman Catholic Church will happen in a similar process to the Eastern Orthodox Church, where when in a culture that is different from the culture of the institution, the domestic culture erodes the institutional culture.

I fear that in countries whose base of operations is within the culture and sphere of Western Europe, like the Ecumenical Patriarch or Ukraine (I think the Greeks are excluded because they have Mount Athos as their foundation, and they preserve the Culture of the Church in isolation), the Culture of the Church will be eroded by the domestic culture in one of two ways.

1. Particularly in Diaspora communities, but not just in Diaspora communities and in domestic communities as well, a number of Churches lose all spiritual life and meaning of Sacraments, and only become proxies to meet people of similar skin color and language, slowly multiplies like a virus and reaches the top levels from the bottom, which causes the Church to fall from standing.
2. The Culture of the Church is eroded piecemeal by piecemeal due to the overpowering nature of the domestic culture that isn't their own, and a point is reached where the Church isn't recognized from what it once was.

That's not to mention there are certain people with malicious interests whose goal is to remove any semblance of "orthodox" Christianity (that is, denominations which hold fundamental moral and dogmatic tenants of Orthodox Christianity) from the world. Not to go all Illuminati or Freemason conspiracy theory, which I tend to reject as lacking in sufficient evidence, but certainly when you have people like George Soros who use their billions of dollars to organize fund Liberal causes, such as organizing Antifa counter-protests and FEMEN in Ukraine, these attempts to make the culture of the Western world more Liberal than it already is clearly have a malicious goal which conflicts with the goals of Christ's Holy Church.

Most people seem to think that the Roman Catholic Church was transformed merely by the imperialistic structure of the RCC, where the Pope is the emperor of the empire and has supreme authority over everything. However, while this is absolutely true, it's not as though the Roman Catholic Church follows the Coptic tradition where they cast lots to determine the next Primate. Thus, the question becomes - how could it be possible that someone like Paul VI, with quite wrong opinions (opinions that go beyond the blatant heterodoxy and paganism of Pius IX, and betray some fundamental tenets of "orthodox" Christianity), could be elected to that position with full support of the Cardinals?

And this process where the anti-orthodox culture slowly erodes what "orthodoxy" they had, such that we see the end result, terrifies me for the Orthodox Church, particularly in light of prophecies where "heretics will seize power in the Church," or prophecies which state "there will come a time where you can't go to Church to receive Communion."

I see this similar process possibly occurring in the Orthodox Church thus.
This primarily happens when the Jurisdiction has a foundation in Western Europe. It is easier to fight back when you have some direct connection to an Eastern European country that is or is allied with Russia, or your foundation is something like Mount Athos where their culture is more isolated than Greek culture, because if the culture of Western Europe tries to consume the Orthodoxy of that Orthodox Church, the hierarchy or source of those countries can intervene and tell the Bishops and the Priests to get their act together, if not then threaten excommunication. However, when you have a situation where your base of operations is located in Western Europe or it's satellite cultures, such as the Ecumenical Patriarch, I feel that there is no certain safety of these Churches from the culture of Western Europe.

If indifferentism and the valuing of domestic culture over Church Culture, viewing the Church as nothing more than a proxy to find people with the same skin tone and voice, is not what causes the erosion of Orthodoxy in these Churches little by little, it will be the erosion of the culture of the Church piecemeal by piecemeal, where gradually at once the whole Church will succumb to it.

How many of you think that monarchy is even comparable to democracy? How many of you think about having more than 2 kids? How many of you think about the validity of the Separation of Church and State? How many believe that Monasticism is a path you would even consider pursuing?

These ideas of which you hold are a product of not your religious upbringing, but the domestic culture in which you live. Soon enough, you will think it's lunacy to think that a government should outlaw same-sex marriage, to outlaw abortions, to not go to war in the name of "individual rights," etc. And this is because these opinions are formed by your own culture, not the Church's Culture.

Persecution here is not as violent and outright as in the Roman Empire, the Middle East, or in the Soviet Union where you can preserve your culture's values and opinions within the Catacombs of that culture - but here, because we have the freedom to practice our religion, surely the culture will be more virulent in trying to dismantle what is contradictory to the domestic culture.

Thus, the domestic culture will more easily penetrate Churches where the Holy Spirit is absent, or penetrate Churches slowly but surely as the domestic culture slowly but surely modifies the mindset and thinking of subsequent hierarchies.

The only way to fight this erosion is to keep on fighting and try to correct Orthodox opinions as much as possible, and while this does generally happen, I feel that in many cases it doesn't.

I don't know, those are my thoughts.
I can’t respond much right now due to time - but I don’t even remotely see what you are thinking here where I am....and I firmly do not believe that will happen to the Church. I see wrong opinions being corrected consistently. I still would like to know where your personal experiences are coming from, as I have a drastically different experience.

ETa: are you seeing this through reading news? Polls? Or personal experience with the Church? Or individuals?

The news sensationalizes things and often makes things seem more out of control than they are in real life. I can’t say that it doesn’t happen though...just that I haven’t seen that happen in my parish or surrounding community, except those who are Orthodox in name / ethnicity only....which again, doesn’t happen often in my personal experience. Or maybe I just haven’t met many. It’s a breath of fresh air for me here though compared to my past experiences before Orthodoxy.
 
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TheLostCoin

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I can’t respond much right now due to time - but I don’t even remotely see what you are thinking here where I am....and I firmly do not believe that will happen to the Church. I see wrong opinions being corrected consistently. I still would like to know where your personal experiences are coming from, as I have a drastically different experience.

Perhaps our experiences are different because I'm a university student, and university students have a greater propensity to embrace Liberalism. However, when I see several students hold onto these opinions, and become virulent when it comes to critiques of these opinions, some who even "personally excommunicate" me from their social life because of my Orthodox opinions, I fear they won't mature and accept the Church's teachings. And it's not as though I'm even vocal on my opinions.
Perhaps my experience is too anecdotal, but the fact that it is within the realm of three different Churches, and these students play an active role within the ministry of the Church, worries me.
Some seem to even have malicious motives for being a member of the Orthodox Church, but that is a judgment on one's motives, a judgment that is near impossible to draw a definitive conclusion on.

I don't know. I could be just an idiot - after all, I'm not even a member of the Church, and I'm a sophistic 21 year old.
 
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All4Christ

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Perhaps our experiences are different because I'm a university student, and university students have a greater propensity to embrace Liberalism. However, when I see several students hold onto these opinions, and become virulent when it comes to critiques of these opinions, I fear they won't mature and accept the Church's teachings. Some seem to even have malicious motives for being a member of the Orthodox Church, but that is a judgment on one's motives, a judgment that is near impossible to draw a definitive conclusion on.

I don't know. I could be just an idiot - after all, I'm not even a member of the Church.
Are these Orthodox Christians active in the Church community? Do their churches support what they teach? Or do they not attend except for major feast days?
 
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All4Christ

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Perhaps our experiences are different because I'm a university student, and university students have a greater propensity to embrace Liberalism. However, when I see several students hold onto these opinions, and become virulent when it comes to critiques of these opinions, I fear they won't mature and accept the Church's teachings. Some seem to even have malicious motives for being a member of the Orthodox Church, but that is a judgment on one's motives, a judgment that is near impossible to draw a definitive conclusion on.

I don't know. I could be just an idiot - after all, I'm not even a member of the Church.
Also, most Orthodox Christians I know are either conservative Traditional cradle or converts. Perhaps that makes a difference as well. Truth is embraced and held onto tightly. Most University students in our parish converted to Orthodoxy as a refuge from the liberal community around us, or grew up in a conservative family.
 
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All4Christ

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Perhaps our experiences are different because I'm a university student, and university students have a greater propensity to embrace Liberalism. However, when I see several students hold onto these opinions, and become virulent when it comes to critiques of these opinions, some who even "personally excommunicate" me from their social life because of my Orthodox opinions, I fear they won't mature and accept the Church's teachings. And it's not as though I'm even vocal on my opinions.
Perhaps my experience is too anecdotal, but the fact that it is within the realm of three different Churches, and these students play an active role within the ministry of the Church, worries me.
Some seem to even have malicious motives for being a member of the Orthodox Church, but that is a judgment on one's motives, a judgment that is near impossible to draw a definitive conclusion on.

I don't know. I could be just an idiot - after all, I'm not even a member of the Church, and I'm a sophistic 21 year old.
Please don’t think that I consider you to be an idiot or anything like that.

My experience is just that...my experience and perspective from the practicing Orthodox Christians I know and have experiences with. (I tend to consider practicing Orthodox to be the true members of the Church, and those who only adhere to it in name only to not be true members or to be changing the actual Orthodox Church. Maybe I am just naive).
 
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TheLostCoin

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Are these Orthodox Christians active in the Church community? Do their churches support what they teach? Or do they not attend except for major feast days?

They are active in what their Church teaches, and in fact they actually are in the leadership of OCF. They also attended Orthodox Summer Camps when they are younger.

They tend to keep their opinions hidden from the Priests but open it up in personal conversations. The Priests seem to be opposed to these opinions, but there's never a confrontation.
 
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All4Christ

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Perhaps my experience is too anecdotal, but the fact that it is within the realm of three different Churches, and these students play an active role within the ministry of the Church, worries me.

I missed this part in my earlier reading. That truly is sad to hear that they have an active role in the Church and still believe liberal concepts (I’m assuming you mean moral or theological issues?)

Like I said, in my personal experience, once our priest found out about someone’s liberal beliefs, it was addressed swiftly. There are always exceptions to the rule though - and that certainly should be addressed.
 
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All4Christ

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They are active in what their Church teaches, and in fact they actually are in the leadership of OCF. They also attended Orthodox Summer Camps when they are younger.

They tend to keep their opinions hidden from the Priests but open it up in personal conversations. The Priests seem to be opposed to these opinions, but there's never a confrontation.
So the priests do not know that they hold those opinions?
 
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dzheremi

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Coming at it from a different perspective... (even though I know you didn't ask for it, this is in St. Justin's, and besides it's the only perspective I have! :))

Egypt itself has only recently known the 'joys' of life in a democratic system, and it cost the native Christians a lot in terms of lives (e.g., Maspero) and property (monasteries attacked by the army, churches and homes burned down by Islamists, clergy murdered, gizya informally reestablished in certain villages, etc.), so people are understandably less than enthused at the prospect of getting involved in politics unless it's a life or death situation. Of course, the youth are a bit different and more willing to be daring, and also often pay for it.

In the West, however, where things are a lot less turbulent, you do see a bit more variation, but it does not touch the church itself at all. In other words, the places where we have had problems (D.C., Canada, some campus 'ministries', etc.) are not due to the influx of liberal political ideas, but a certain liberalization in terms of praxis due to the errant belief of some people who are very socially/politically conservative that they are in America now and this is how we integrate ourselves. It's still wrong, of course, but it's not wrong due to some kind of hot-button political wedge issues or whatever like in the American system. The people at my old parish who asked Fr. Marcus if he would commune the two Chlacedonians who regularly came to our parish all had "Bush for President" stickers on their cars and regularly talked about Obama being the anti-Christ (after liturgy, like good Orthodox Christians... :D), and they were all reminded that, no, we will not be doing that. So many people do have some standards, and maybe many more need to be frequently or infrequently reminded what those are, why they are as they are, and why we will not be changing them. But again, this is only really related to American politics if you yourself choose to look at things through that lens. Both OO and EO appear to be mostly above that, from everything I can see.

In a practical sense, the "liberal wing" of my old parish was the one Ethiopian girl who was in her 20s who was pretty relentlessly mocked after having admitted to voting for Obama in the previous election, and I didn't approve of either the vote or the mockery, for precisely the same reason that abouna eventually shut that conversation down (the Church is above this/stop acting like children). Nothing like the RCC where you have huge swaths of people at each other's throats, movements (including clergy! Lord have mercy!) for "women priests", adovcates for gay marriage and the ordination of active and unrepentant homosexuals, etc.

Of course, to be true to what I have personally been exposed to, we did have that one incident wherein the EO couple in Las Cruces fled from their church there due to the liberal preaching of the EO priest responsible for the local mission to college students (including preaching things like the above, sadly -- or at least that's what the couple said; I didn't ever meet the guy), which I believe I've posted about on here before and do not bring up again now to either bask in it or dwell upon it, but to show that you can find an anomaly or aberration basically anywhere, but that's what you're looking at in those cases. I pray to God that the man was forcibly laicized and barred from communion until he repented, as I know that such things are not in any way representative of the EO faith, and more importantly from a structural point of view the EO Church has preserved the means by which such an action can be and is taken.

That very last bit is what I would focus on if I were concerned as you are, OP, because you're never going to find any Church wherein there are not these kinds of problems. Or worse. Think about the long past where much of the world had fallen to Arianism.

Part of the reason that the RCC is where it is now is not just because it's in the West and the West has changed a lot over the past several centuries, and at an even more accelerated rate in the past few decades (though, yes, that is part of it), but also because it has put itself in a bind wherein it is unable to properly heal itself from its various maladies without seriously changing/deconstructing what it has long held the Church itself to be -- e.g., it can't sack bad priests due to its preexisting stance on 'indelible mark' theology and the supposed ontological change that takes place at ordination wherein the priest possesses his own priesthood (rather than it being a ministry given by the Church, to be taken away by Her if necessary); it can't effectively deal with a bad Pope by anything other than resignation because V1 put him above any council/synod; it can't now come out against hippy-dippy new age-y nonsense or demonic manifestations among its own after accepting some time ago such evil under the guise of "charismatic renewal"; it can't clamp down on its liberal wing with a practical 'liberation theologist' (another RC invention) at its helm (see the earlier point about dealing with a bad Pope), so the RC church is as usual steered according to the whim of the man in the chair rather than the Holy Spirit -- etc., etc., etc.!

Does any of this apply to the EO Church? I'm admittedly on the outside looking in, but I don't think it does. EO Patriarchs are accountable to synods, priests can be and occasionally are laicized, people can be barred from communion, etc. The inmates have not taken over the asylum, even if there may still be some trouble spots. You've got the tools to deal with them, because you haven't unwisely innovated all this other stuff.
 
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gzt

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They are active in what their Church teaches, and in fact they actually are in the leadership of OCF. They also attended Orthodox Summer Camps when they are younger.

They tend to keep their opinions hidden from the Priests but open it up in personal conversations. The Priests seem to be opposed to these opinions, but there's never a confrontation.
Which particular opinions are the problematic ones?

Here's the deal: I haven't been following this conversation all that well or attentively because, well, it's walls of text, but you seem, for the most part, concerned about things that Christians of good will can disagree on. As Christians, when it comes to politics, there are some ends we must support, some ends we cannot support, and some means we cannot support. Beyond that, there is a lot that, as Christians, we are able to disagree on in good faith, as the practical questions of public life are quite involved.
 
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Whatever the case, I don't think intense policing of this sort of thing is a good idea either from a personal or religious perspective - at least until it reaches some kind of extremism, in which case the mere acceptance of a political position is not what is at question.
 
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All4Christ

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That’s an important question imho. Questions like: does the priest know (since he has to know in order to address it directly)? Are they actively promoting it? What are the beliefs they are promoting? Are they promoting a political party, values, theology? As @dzheremi said, there are exceptions - I could point out a few of them. Some of them really are not good, though they have often been addressed. In the States, however, many people are coming into Orthodoxy from another background, looking for truth and looking for a solid church that doesn’t change in belief. That gives a different perspective. We aren’t free from problems - far from it. I don’t see those issues, however, changing the Truth or beliefs of the Church.
 
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Petros2015

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And this process where the anti-orthodox culture slowly erodes what "orthodoxy" they had, such that we see the end result, terrifies me for the Orthodox Church, particularly in light of prophecies where "heretics will seize power in the Church," or prophecies which state "there will come a time where you can't go to Church to receive Communion."

Wait... what prophecies? You are getting terrified over something that hasn't happened to a Church you aren't a member of? Orthodoxy works best for me when I mind my own soul, and that is something it is good at encouraging.
 
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dzheremi

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St. Anthony once said that there will come a time when men will go mad, and upon seeing a man who is not mad they will seize him for not being like them. We are in that time now (just think about what career and social suicide it is to be publicly against political innovations like gay marriage), and yet no one has either taken over the EO church, nor prevented anyone from receiving communion there if they are a baptized, active, confessing member.

I would like to gently suggest that maybe the Jesus Prayer is a better remedy for this than pouring over some prophecies or worrying about politics.
 
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TheLostCoin

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St. Anthony once said that there will come a time when men will go mad, and upon seeing a man who is not mad they will seize him for not being like them. We are in that time now (just think about what career and social suicide it is to be publicly against political innovations like gay marriage), and yet no one has either taken over the EO church, nor prevented anyone from receiving communion there if they are a baptized, active, confessing member.

I would like to gently suggest that maybe the Jesus Prayer is a better remedy for this than pouring over some prophecies or worrying about politics.

You're absolutely right - I've been damaged spiritually (by my own fault and nobody else's) when prophecy was a fundamental basis of my spirituality as a Roman Catholic (not like charismatic, but pouring through the "Three Days of Darkness," "Akita Prophecies," "Third Secret of Fatima", etc.), and these obsessions go against what Christ said, when He warned us not to worry about the future.

Maybe I should just trust Christ, that He will allow the Bishops and Priests to defend the Church. After all, the Church was made for me, not I for the Church.
 
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dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
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Yeah, the "Secrets of Fatima" type stuff isn't really anything to worry yourself about if you're not going to be RC anymore, and as you've correctly surmised, the obsession with that kind of thing is spiritually damaging to Roman Catholics themselves, so it's best left behind. I'm sure as sure can be that any prophecy that would be invoked in the EO context would be placed in proper proportion to the already very fulfilling everyday spiritual life of the believer in that same Church, so in any case it's not anything to worry yourself over. A sincerely prayed "Kyrie Eleison" is much more important to spiritual health than finding out some weird neo-Gnostic "secret" a la RCism anyway. Mature faith is not built on ecstasies and hoping for visions or whatever. There's a reason why Montanus and company were given the boot so many centuries ago, and that reason hasn't changed with relation to any of their modern descendants, no matter where you may find them (e.g., Mormonism, Pentecostalism, some forms of RCism, etc).
 
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