how can God uses means and Calvinism both be true

[dogs4thewin]

If who will be saved will be saved and those who will not will not then why would God use means to bring that about? If it is going to happen anyway what is the point of seeing to it means are there?

 

[twin1954]

If who will be saved will be saved and those who will not will not then why would God use means to bring that about? If it is going to happen anyway what is the point of seeing to it means are there?

The key tour question is "will not". The unsaved do not want to be saved. They will not come to Christ that they might have life. John 5:40

Your idea of election is a misconception. The fact that God saves any is remarkable. Election isn't as much about God choosing as it is about God's Loving mercy and grace given to the undeserving. Election is about love.

The common misconception, which you seem to share, is that God must try to save everybody. That just isn't true nor logical. He isn't obligated to save any. He could just as easily send us all to everlasting destruction because that is what we deserve. It is a wonder that He has determined to save any. Those that are saved are saved because God is merciful and loving and no other reason. But He is merciful to whom He chooses to be merciful. Rom. 9:15 It is up to Him not up to us. Rom. 9:16

As to why He uses means: He, in absolute wisdom and goodness has determined to use means. It is a blessing to us to be used to call out chosen sinners to faith in Christ. He takes the useless and weak and uses them to bring in the harvest of chosen souls that the glory may be all His and not ours. Read 1Cor. 1:18-31

 

[sdowney717]

"why would God use means to bring that about?"

Because we are not robots.
It is because of God's great love for us that we are saved.
God desires us to pray and spend time with God in worship, He wants to communicate, interact, show favor, love, cant do that with a machine.

It is God's good pleasure to give His kingdom to those He has chosen to know God.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

All of this has a lot more meaning to a Calvinist because it shows God made us alive who were dead in trespasses and to be dead means to a Calvinist to be like putrifyingly truly dead. A lot of people don't think they are dead now and a lot of believers did not think much about how dead they were before they were saved.

 

[dogs4thewin]

"why would God use means to bring that about?"

Because we are not robots.
It is because of God's great love for us that we are saved.
God desires us to pray and spend time with God in worship, He wants to communicate, interact, show favor, love, cant do that with a machine.

It is God's good pleasure to give His kingdom to those He has chosen to know God.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

All of this has a lot more meaning to a Calvinist because it shows God made us alive who were dead in trespasses and to be dead means to a Calvinist to be like putrifyingly truly dead. A lot of people don't think they are dead now and a lot of believers did not think much about how dead they were before they were saved.

so if we are not robots then that must mean that we have the ability to refuse grace.

 

[SpyderByte]

so if we are not robots then that must mean that we have the ability to refuse grace.

That's not quite right. We aren't robots, no, but we don't have "free" will. As Jesus said, "he who sins is a slave to sin", so you see even "free" we will always choose to sin. It's our nature since the fall. We cannot choose God before He chooses us and changes our hearts, because our will is enslaved to sin. However, once God has changed that heart, it is His. Those are His elect. And also as Jesus said "[bless and do not curse]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.[bless and do not curse]For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.[bless and do not curse]This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.[bless and do not curse]For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6:37-40 You see we are the ones the Father gave to the Son, the ones the Son will never lose. His elect. So no, if we are called, we cannot, nor would we want to, turn away from Him. Yet if we are not called, our souls remained chained to our sin, and can do nothing but sin, and would always reject God. It's through His incredible love and grace that even one of us is saved, as He is full right to destroy each and every one of us for our sin right now. Remember the passage "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated"? The incredible part isn't the hated part, but the loved part. As to your earlier question, about God using incidents for salvation. Remember Genesis 50:20? Where Joshua's brothers sold him into slavery, what did Joshua say? "You meant this for evil, yet God meant it for good!" And what had happened? Because God used the kidnapping, Joshua allowed Egypt to prosper and save many many lives! That is why God uses people and instances here. Because through His perfect plan, all things work to His glory, and ultimately for the good of those who love Him! Hope this helps!

 

[BryanW92]

so if we are not robots then that must mean that we have the ability to refuse grace.

If you were dying of thirst in the desert and someone offered you a cup of water, do you think that you could refuse it?

We are truly degenerate in our sinfulness and dying of thirst. Jesus is a cup of cool, clean water. We aren't robots for not being able to refuse that drink. We are just humans who got a glimpse of life for the very first time and none of us have the strength to resist that.

 

[dogs4thewin]

If you were dying of thirst in the desert and someone offered you a cup of water, do you think that you could refuse it?

We are truly degenerate in our sinfulness and dying of thirst. Jesus is a cup of cool, clean water. We aren't robots for not being able to refuse that drink. We are just humans who got a glimpse of life for the very first time and none of us have the strength to resist that.

It would depend if we are dying anyway we may want to refuse a drink ( trust me it has been less than 72 hours since I have lost my father and he could not would not drink at the end.

 

[SpyderByte]

It would depend if we are dying anyway we may want to refuse a drink ( trust me it has been less than 72 hours since I have lost my father and he could not would not drink at the end.

I'm very sorry to hear that about your father!

 

[sdowney717]

so if we are not robots then that must mean that we have the ability to refuse grace.

Only for a while, until it pleases God to reveal - show His Son in us.
Recall what Jesus tells Paul about kicking against the goads.
God always gets His way regarding our being saved.

Our free will is as free as God allows it to be, or as enslaved.

It can be best understood from Romans 6

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Study to understand spiritual things, with God's help you can understand spiritual things of God.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I'm very sorry to hear that about your father!

thanks service was today.

 

[St_Worm2]

I too am so very sorry to hear about the loss of your father, dogs4thewin.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Skala]

If who will be saved will be saved and those who will not will not then why would God use means to bring that about? If it is going to happen anyway what is the point of seeing to it means are there?

You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

You said both "use means to bring it about" and "it is going to happen anyway"

Those two ideas are contradictory.

 

[dogs4thewin]

sorry to bring back up an old thread, but I was thinking. We are not robots so if God will save you then it really (other than the fact that God comanded it makes no sense to preach the gospel, because whether a particular person will be saved they will be saved whether someone chooses to tell them or not.

 

[AMR]

sorry to bring back up an old thread, but I was thinking. We are not robots so if God will save you then it really (other than the fact that God comanded it makes no sense to preach the gospel, because whether a particular person will be saved they will be saved whether someone chooses to tell them or not.

God's decree includes the means by which one is born anew. The ordinary means decreed by God for one's re-birth is by the hearing of the Good News. You cannot separate the fact of what will happen from the way by which it will happen as both are part of God's decree. We are clearly commanded to preach the Good News. The command, a revealed will of God, is used to accomplish His secret will: those for whom the command will be changed and brought into the Kingdom. Using the secret will of God to mount an argument that evangelism is not needed is error (Deut. 29:29). The revealed will of God is that all who call upon the name of the Lord will not be turned away. How shall they call upon the name of the Lord unless they are so exhorted? Hence the command of God to preach the Good News promiscuously and leave the blowing of the regenerative wind of the Holy Spirit in the hands of God alone.

 

[Skala]

sorry to bring back up an old thread, but I was thinking. We are not robots so if God will save you then it really (other than the fact that God comanded it makes no sense to preach the gospel, because whether a particular person will be saved they will be saved whether someone chooses to tell them or not.

You are understanding things wrongly.

God uses means. Stuff doesn't just "automatically happen". For example, when God flooded the earth, he didn't just snap his fingers and kill everyone. Instead, he used the flood.

When God rescued Noah and his family, he didn't just snap his fingers and save them from the flood, instead, he had them built a boat.

God uses means to accomplish whatever ends he desires.

Salvation is the same way. "Bob" isn't just automatically saved whether or not he hears the gospel. Instead, God sends preachers and the gospel message to Bob's ears, and through that, God changes Bob's heart and brings him to faith in Jesus.

 

[St_Worm2]

God's decree includes the means by which one is born anew. The ordinary means decreed by God for one's re-birth is by the hearing of the Good News. You cannot separate the fact of what will happen from the way by which it will happen as both are part of God's decree. We are clearly commanded to preach the Good News. The command, a revealed will of God, is used to accomplish His secret will: those for whom the command will be changed and brought into the Kingdom. Using the secret will of God to mount an argument that evangelism is not needed is error (Deut. 29:29). The revealed will of God is that all who call upon the name of the Lord will not be turned away. How shall they call upon the name of the Lord unless they are so exhorted? Hence the command of God to preach the Good News promiscuously and leave the blowing of the regenerative wind of the Holy Spirit in the hands of God alone.