How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?

[Neogaia777]

This is the problem I'm having right now...?

How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?

And then: Can there be multiple ways and many possible ways a thing can go, and then, what? arrive at a point or certain points that were inevitable, but then, those would have to predestined in a way too, right...?

But, are their multiple paths and many way things can go, or do they only go and can go "one way", according to events that happened and things and factors prior to that, back to the beginning, I guess, or what...? Then how do we have choice...? Many choices have been proven to only be being made on or off of "prior programming" (so to speak)... How many or which ones are not, if there is such a thing...? Is it greatly dependent upon perspective, or point of view, ours, or God's...? And can we ever have God's...?

It would seem that we have a great field of possibilities around us, (according to science) but none of those possibilities, or "apparent" alternate realities, never manifested, and never became real, and therefore are not ever real, (those possibilities, if they ever really were or are possibilities, annihilate one another near the exact instant they are concieved, or appear)... (were they ever really real)...? Is there one way we go, or many that we can go...? And, we leave only one path behind us... Our input has an affect on manifesting it (reality), or other affects our input has on our reality, I don't think we fully understand it all yet...?

Anyway, Is there a fully omniscient being who knew that path, like a mathematical equation or formula, or something, that knew all that long before ever making us or anything...? And, if so, then how can we have free-will...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

 

[RDKirk]

Why is that a "problem?" What difference does it make?

If I portend to be a follower of Christ, my intention is to follow Christ.

What difference does it make in my intention to follow Christ?

Why is that a problem?

 

[St_Worm2]

How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?

Just because God knows all and ordains whatsoever comes to pass before it happens, doesn't mean that He 'causes' whatsoever comes to pass. Rather, we see that in His ordination of all things, He also 'allows' things to occur that He would never cause nor approve of, like our choice to sin against Him. His "knowing" therefore, does not interfere with our choices in such things (unless He chooses to interfere, of course).

--David

 

[Neogaia777]

Why is that a "problem?" What difference does it make?

If I portend to be a follower of Christ, my intention is to follow Christ.

What difference does it make in my intention to follow Christ?

Why is that a problem?

"Problem" might have been a bad choice of words... I meant quandry, question in or on my mind, something I've been pondering, that kind of thing...?

This could help people know him better maybe, potentially, I'd like to think anyway, maybe...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Just because God knows all and ordains whatsoever comes to pass before it happens, doesn't mean that He 'causes' whatsoever comes to pass. Rather, we see that in His ordination of all things, He also 'allows' things to occur that He would never cause nor approve of, like our choice to sin against Him. His "knowing" therefore, does not interfere with our choices in such things (unless He chooses to interfere, of course).

--David

Doesn't he already know...? And while he did not directly cause it or any (bad) things to happen to or with anybody, he did create it knowing it would be what it was, is and will be, and everything in-between, and made it all the way it was and is and will be and knew all about it, and has a higher reason and purpose for all of it; for a very, very good reason, even the bad or evil, and that's where it gets difficult...?

How can any being know about your and everything's exact place at all times, so much knowledge, anyway, how can a being know the outcome of your choices ahead of time and you still have had or made a choice in the first place...?

God Bless!

 

[ClementofA]

"How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?"

Only if Scripture says so. Does it? If so, where?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This is the problem I'm having right now...?

How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?

And then: Can there be multiple ways and many possible ways a thing can go, and then, what? arrive at a point or certain points that were inevitable, but then, those would have to predestined in a way too, right...?

But, are their multiple paths and many way things can go, or do they only go and can go "one way", according to events that happened and things and factors prior to that, back to the beginning, I guess, or what...? Then how do we have choice...? Many choices have been proven to only be being made on or off of "prior programming" (so to speak)... How many or which ones are not, if there is such a thing...? Is it greatly dependent upon perspective, or point of view, ours, or God's...? And can we ever have God's...?

It would seem that we have a great field of possibilities around us, (according to science) but none of those possibilities, or "apparent" alternate realities, never manifested, and never became real, and therefore are not ever real, (those possibilities, if they ever really were or are possibilities, annihilate one another near the exact instant they are concieved, or appear)... (were they ever really real)...? Is there one way we go, or many that we can go...? And, we leave only one path behind us... Our input has an affect on manifesting it (reality), or other affects our input has on our reality, I don't think we fully understand it all yet...?

Anyway, Is there a fully omniscient being who knew that path, like a mathematical equation or formula, or something, that knew all that long before ever making us or anything...? And, if so, then how can we have free-will...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

God is LOVE. He gives us free will. He knows the end from the begging who will accept his invitation that he has given to all mankind. Jesus stands knocking at the door of the heart of all mankind. It is up to us to open the door and invite him in.

 

[Neogaia777]

God is LOVE

I agree, God is God...

God Bless!

 

[oldrunner]

You hit the nail on the head. We all have only a very limited free will. This is all under the umbrella of God's grace, mercy, and sovereignty. Total free will is what humanism teaches; that we are masters of our own destiny, captain of our own ship. This is not Bible.

God did think of every possibility before the universe was created, and chose some and other's He didn't, all before He started the plan in motion. We don't know who they are, so we should think and actively support the gospel going out to all the world, that everyone has the opportunity to hear, repent, and be saved. (Eph. 1, Romans 8) And He has 100s, of prophecies that await to be fulfilled-and probably very soon. He is now working all the pieces of the chessboard into place as we speak to bring in the Kingdom of His beloved Son.

Some believe God chose us on the basis of what we would do, but Romans 3 shows that we are all under sin and can't and don't seek after him. Therefore, we can understand that it is God that does indeed choose us for His own reasons, and enables us to come to Him. John 6. Otherwise these Scriptures mean nothing.

I went through the same thing when I was first saved. I thought I came to Christ on my own volition. But these Scriptures teach otherwise. That is also why I am secure in my salvation and know I can't be lost; because God started it, is keeping me saved now, and through the indwelling Holy Spirit I will be delivered -body, soul, and spirt, to the God that called Me, to the praise of His glory!

 

[SkyWriting]

This is the problem I'm having right now...?
How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?

26 Jesus looked at them and said,
“With man this is impossible,
but with God all things are possible.”

 

[Neogaia777]

"How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?"

Only if Scripture says so. Does it? If so, where?

What does scripture say about it...?

God Bless!

 

[Doug Melven]

God is not only omniscient, but also omnipresent.
He said He knows the end from the beginning.
There is a song that says "Your'e already there" talking about the future.
God sees the future, because He is present there as well.
He knows the outcome of every situation because He sees it in real time.
He inhabits eternity, He is outside of time.

 

[St_Worm2]

How can any being know about your and everything's exact place at all times, so much knowledge, anyway, how can a being know the outcome of your choices ahead of time and you still have had or made a choice in the first place...?

Again, because while God knows what our free will choices will be before we make them, He is also the one who chooses to allow them to happen. IOW, His knowledge does not affect my free will choices (unless He also chooses to interfere with them, of course).

It's similar to putting a piece of grilled salmon on a plate for my dog. I absolutely know that she will eat it (before I've even bought it or brought it home to cook it), so in what way do you believe that my foreknowledge interferes or influences her free will choice to eat the salmon once I've finally offered it to her?

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is the problem I'm having right now...?

How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?

And then: Can there be multiple ways and many possible ways a thing can go, and then, what? arrive at a point or certain points that were inevitable, but then, those would have to predestined in a way too, right...?

But, are their multiple paths and many way things can go, or do they only go and can go "one way", according to events that happened and things and factors prior to that, back to the beginning, I guess, or what...? Then how do we have choice...? Many choices have been proven to only be being made on or off of "prior programming" (so to speak)... How many or which ones are not, if there is such a thing...? Is it greatly dependent upon perspective, or point of view, ours, or God's...? And can we ever have God's...?

It would seem that we have a great field of possibilities around us, (according to science) but none of those possibilities, or "apparent" alternate realities, never manifested, and never became real, and therefore are not ever real, and, we leave only one path behind us... Our input has an affect on manifesting it (reality), or other affects our input has on our reality, I don't think we fully understand it all yet...?

Anyway, Is there a fully omniscient being who knew that path, like a mathematical equation or formula, or something, that knew all that long before ever making us or anything...? And, if so, then how can we have free-will...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

God has foreseen our future. This doesn’t mean that He controls our choices. If that were true the apostles, Jesus’ ministry, the church, the Bible, the great commission would all be useless. What would be the point of spreading the gospel throughout the world if nobody could choose to accept it or not? The Bible is full of choices, rebellion from God, warnings, and commandments we must adhere to. If we have no choice and everything is predestined and God decides who is saved and who burns then the whole religion of Christianity is useless because everything about it is based on choosing to accept, trust, obey, and love God. If we have no choice we cannot choose to love God. We are right now living out what God has already foreseen even before creation. The choices we make today, tomorrow, and everyday until we die or Jesus’ second coming are shaping what God foresaw before creation. We are still in control of our fate we just don’t know our outcome like God does. For example I can choose to praise God right now or I can choose to curse Him. Not that I ever would but I do have the capability. Which ever choice I decide to make now God would’ve already foreseen before creation. So in a sense our destiny is fixed because the book of life is already written and complete. It will not be edited. But it was written according to the choices we will make in the future. The past & even the present doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is whether we have faith when we die or when Jesus returns. We could’ve been terrible sinners in the past and even the present but if we repent and turn to God before we die and before Jesus’ second coming we will be saved. Now I’m not saying to go and sin all you want until your about to die. You could die at any moment or Jesus could return and you would burn. More importantly that would not be the type of devotion to God that a person who has a genuine faith would have. The devotion that comes from the guidance of Holy Spirit. God gives us the ability to overcome sin. He does this by His choice or will. If God had never sent the Holy Spirit to call on us we could’ve never made the choice on our own. So the choice isn’t from us alone it is a gift from God. He has given us the ability to choose Him because if He didn’t we could’ve never done it. We do still have free will because we can choose to deny God. But we could never choose to obey without the gift of the Holy Spirit. PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[oldrunner]

Doesn't he already know...? And while he did not directly cause it or any (bad) things to happen to or with anybody, he did create it knowing it would be what it was, is and will be, and everything in-between, and made it all the way it was and is and will be and knew all about it, and has a higher reason and purpose for all of it; for a very, very good reason, even the bad or evil, and that's where it gets difficult...?

How can any being know about your and everything's exact place at all times, so much knowledge, anyway, how can a being know the outcome of your choices ahead of time and you still have had or made a choice in the first place...?

God Bless!

Because He made us, and knows what we will do. He don't have to look ahead, He knows all possibilities without having made anything. THIS IS OUR GOD! Ps. 139, Job 38-42

 

[bcbsr]

This is the problem I'm having right now...?

How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?

And then: Can there be multiple ways and many possible ways a thing can go, and then, what? arrive at a point or certain points that were inevitable, but then, those would have to predestined in a way too, right...?

But, are their multiple paths and many way things can go, or do they only go and can go "one way", according to events that happened and things and factors prior to that, back to the beginning, I guess, or what...? Then how do we have choice...? Many choices have been proven to only be being made on or off of "prior programming" (so to speak)... How many or which ones are not, if there is such a thing...? Is it greatly dependent upon perspective, or point of view, ours, or God's...? And can we ever have God's...?

It would seem that we have a great field of possibilities around us, (according to science) but none of those possibilities, or "apparent" alternate realities, never manifested, and never became real, and therefore are not ever real, (those possibilities, if they ever really were or are possibilities, annihilate one another near the exact instant they are concieved, or appear)... (were they ever really real)...? Is there one way we go, or many that we can go...? And, we leave only one path behind us... Our input has an affect on manifesting it (reality), or other affects our input has on our reality, I don't think we fully understand it all yet...?

Anyway, Is there a fully omniscient being who knew that path, like a mathematical equation or formula, or something, that knew all that long before ever making us or anything...? And, if so, then how can we have free-will...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Your assume "omniscience" is simply predicting the future. That's not how God is omniscience. He actually sees the future and doesn't simply predict it based on some complex formula. And that being the case I see no logical contradiction between man's free will and God's ominiscience.

 

[Neogaia777]

God has foreseen our future. This doesn’t mean that He controls our choices. If that were true the apostles, Jesus’ ministry, the church, the Bible, the great commission would all be useless. What would be the point of spreading the gospel throughout the world if nobody could choose to accept it or not?

This again...? IDK...? What would be the point...? Cause you'll eventually find out that is not the point...?

The Bible is full of choices, rebellion from God, warnings, and commandments we must adhere to. If we have no choice and everything is predestined and God decides who is saved and who burns then the whole religion of Christianity is useless because everything about it is based on choosing to accept, trust, obey, and love God.

But if it's true, we must not deny truth and yet make honest attempts while not denying a/the truth, make attempts to explain it from there...

If we have no choice we cannot choose to love God. We are right now living out what God has already foreseen even before creation. The choices we make today, tomorrow, and everyday until we die or Jesus’ second coming are shaping what God foresaw before creation. We are still in control of our fate we just don’t know our outcome like God does. For example I can choose to praise God right now or I can choose to curse Him. Not that I ever would but I do have the capability. Which ever choice I decide to make now God would’ve already foreseen before creation. So in a sense our destiny is fixed because the book of life is already written and complete. It will not be edited. But it was written according to the choices we will make in the future. The past & even the present doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is whether we have faith when we die or when Jesus returns. We could’ve been terrible sinners in the past and even the present but if we repent and turn to God before we die and before Jesus’ second coming we will be saved. Now I’m not saying to go and sin all you want until your about to die. You could die at any moment or Jesus could return and you would burn. More importantly that would not be the type of devotion to God that a person who has a genuine faith would have. The devotion that comes from the guidance of Holy Spirit. God gives us the ability to overcome sin. He does this by His choice or will. If God had never sent the Holy Spirit to call on us we could’ve never made the choice on our own. So the choice isn’t from us alone it is a gift from God. He has given us the ability to choose Him because if He didn’t we could’ve never done it. We do still have free will because we can choose to deny God. But we can’t never choose to obey without the gift of the Holy Spirit. PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

All I hear is "desperate plea at being able to embrace, or keep living in denial", (that precious river in Egypt), after you get over the/your emotions, what are you gonna think and/or do then, after that...?

If it's/this is true, we must find out how and why... And uncover the mysteries and truths of it all, based on/off truth...

Questioning commonly held misconceptions based on a rebellious nature, about choice, free will ect, is not easy, but we need to find out...?

Does God know all...? And if he does, what does that mean (about Choice)...? Do we start talking about the trinity, or say how only one of them was an always truly fully omniscient, and somehow divide them or something like that...? One was the Father, one was the Son, one but not the exact same, in what ways, all that...?

God Bless![/QUOTE]

 

[oldrunner]

Again, because while God knows what our free will choices will be before we make them, He is also the one who chooses to allow them to happen. IOW, His knowledge does not affect my free will choices (unless He also chooses to interfere with them, of course).

It's similar to putting a piece of grilled salmon on a plate for my dog. I absolutely know that she will eat it (before I've even bought it or brought it home to cook it), so in what way do you believe that my foreknowledge interferes or influences her free will choice to eat the salmon once I've finally offered it to her?

This is a very good illustration! IMO, it's a design element, and people get hung up on what we can and cannot do under God. We have been pre-programmed in our society to think we have to have 100% free will in everything, and God cannot interfere or it is not really a real choice. This then comes into the Church. This is humanism. The pot can't make itself.

 

[Neogaia777]

Your assume "omniscience" is simply predicting the future. That's not how God is omniscience. He actually sees the future and doesn't simply predict it based on some complex formula. And that being the case I see no logical contradiction between man's free will and God's ominiscience.

Omniscience means much, much, much, much, much "more" than just prophecy and seeing the future... Every atom, every molecule, every hair on your head, where all of it is, was, and is, going to be at and places and times, simultaneously for God...

Everything's beginning and end, from before the very beginning, or after the very end, and everything in between... Every single particle of matter, material, energy, knew it all and where was all going to be all along... Not a sparrow falls to the ground, not a single one, anywhere ever, falls to the ground, goes hungry or thirsty, ect...

God Bless!

 

[Halbhh]

This is the problem I'm having right now...?

How can God be 100% fully omniscient, and there be free will...?

And then: Can there be multiple ways and many possible ways a thing can go, and then, what? arrive at a point or certain points that were inevitable, but then, those would have to predestined in a way too, right...?

But, are their multiple paths and many way things can go, or do they only go and can go "one way", according to events that happened and things and factors prior to that, back to the beginning, I guess, or what...? Then how do we have choice...? Many choices have been proven to only be being made on or off of "prior programming" (so to speak)... How many or which ones are not, if there is such a thing...? Is it greatly dependent upon perspective, or point of view, ours, or God's...? And can we ever have God's...?

It would seem that we have a great field of possibilities around us, (according to science) but none of those possibilities, or "apparent" alternate realities, never manifested, and never became real, and therefore are not ever real, (those possibilities, if they ever really were or are possibilities, annihilate one another near the exact instant they are concieved, or appear)... (were they ever really real)...? Is there one way we go, or many that we can go...? And, we leave only one path behind us... Our input has an affect on manifesting it (reality), or other affects our input has on our reality, I don't think we fully understand it all yet...?

Anyway, Is there a fully omniscient being who knew that path, like a mathematical equation or formula, or something, that knew all that long before ever making us or anything...? And, if so, then how can we have free-will...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

By intentionally designing our individual spirits/souls to be unpredictable (for real), by His choice, for His purposes.

He would still be able to see and know the direction a person is going at the moment and know where that path leads to if the person does not turn.

But what fits scripture is that we can turn.

God may have made our spirits able to suddenly choose to change direction, such as in response to the pull from the Holy Spirit.
(Like a toddler choosing to take a parent's hand)

This would fit all scripture, instead of only some scripture like the main competing notion of full-determinism clockwork "predestination" (that flavor of predestination, which is not the only kind).

He could still easily accomplish His plans and purposes regardless of what unpredictable changes in direction any individual makes.

He is able.

What was predestined for all souls is that God made a way for any to be saved, if they would choose to turn to Christ, in faith, trust.

Look, and see:

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. "