How can Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:11 be referring to the same event?

[DavidPT]

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

All of the above takes place prior to the beginning of the thousand years.
----------------------------------------------------------------
All of the below takes place after the thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


That means Daniel 7:9 is not the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:11. In Daniel 7:9 the judgment concerns the little horn, the beast of Rev 13 and it's demise in the LOF. In Revelation 20:11, take note that the beast of Rev 13 is already in the LOF(Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, and Daniel 7:11) when the great white throne judgment initially takes place.

If the thousand years takes place in this age as some insist, such as Amils, this would indicate Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, and Daniel 7:11, have all been fulfilled at least 2000 years ago since these things have to take place prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and not after the thousand years instead. How then do Amils logically fit the fulfillment Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, and Daniel 7:11, with that of their view, that the thousand years is before the 2nd coming?

 

[Dave L]

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

All of the above takes place prior to the beginning of the thousand years.
----------------------------------------------------------------
All of the below takes place after the thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


That means Daniel 7:9 is not the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:11. In Daniel 7:9 the judgment concerns the little horn, the beast of Rev 13 and it's demise in the LOF. In Revelation 20:11, take note that the beast of Rev 13 is already in the LOF(Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, and Daniel 7:11) when the great white throne judgment initially takes place.

If the thousand years takes place in this age as some insist, such as Amils, this would indicate Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, and Daniel 7:11, have all been fulfilled at least 2000 years ago since these things have to take place prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and not after the thousand years instead. How then do Amils logically fit the fulfillment Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, and Daniel 7:11, with that of their view, that the thousand years is before the 2nd coming?

If you have the restoration of Israel taking place on the last day in the New Heavens and earth. It might fit together better. The 1000 years are not the kingdom. They represent Satan's binding during the spread of the gospel to the nations. We are now in the loosing period just before Christ's return.

 

[claninja]

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

All of the above takes place prior to the beginning of the thousand years.

That's not true. You quoted Daniel 7:10 as taking place before the beginning of the 1000 years. However, Revelation states the books are opened AFTER the 1,000 years:

Daniel 7:10 the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened

If the thousand years takes place in this age as some insist,

David's reign began in 1000 BCE. It was 1000 years until the time of Christ's coming, dying, rising again, and ascending to the throne in heaven. Thus fulfilling God's promise to David:

Jeremiah 33:17 For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel,

 

[DavidPT]

That's not true. You quoted Daniel 7:10 as taking place before the beginning of the 1000 years. However, Revelation states the books are opened AFTER the 1,000 years:

Daniel 7:10 the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened




David's reign began in 1000 BCE. It was 1000 years until the time of Christ's coming, dying, rising again, and ascending to the throne in heaven. Thus fulfilling God's promise to David:

Jeremiah 33:17 For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel,

How about this then? Obviously Revelation 20:11-15 concerns the great white throne judgement. Where then in Revelation 20 does the text ever indicate that the beast of Revelation 13 is also at this judgment, thus cast into the LOF at the time of Revelation 20:11-15? You are apparently assuming Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:11 are referring to the same event, but until you can also prove it with Revelation 20, your assumption hasn't proven anything other than it is just an assumption.

 

[DavidPT]

If you have the restoration of Israel taking place on the last day in the New Heavens and earth. It might fit together better. The 1000 years are not the kingdom. They represent Satan's binding during the spread of the gospel to the nations. We are now in the loosing period just before Christ's return.

Actually I do have the restoration of Israel taking place on the last day in the New Heavens and earth, since I tend to conclude the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting NHNE.

 

[claninja]

Obviously Revelation 20:11-15 concerns the great white throne judgement.

Agreed

Where then in Revelation 20 does the text ever indicate that the beast of Revelation 13 is also at this judgment, thus cast into the LOF at the time of Revelation 20:11-15?

There is no text in revelation 20, that specifically states "the beast was cast into the LOF".

The greek, in a literal word for word interpretation, simply states the following in red:
Revelation 20:10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where also the beast and the false prophet

Both the dragon (satan) and the beast are red, both have 7 heads, and both have 10 horns. They are incredibly similar. The main difference would be the number of crowns: In revelation 12, the dragon as 7, in revelation 13, the beast has 10.

Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.

Revelation 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

Revelation 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

You are apparently assuming Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:11 are referring to the same event, but until you can also prove it with Revelation 20, your assumption hasn't proven anything other than it is just an assumption.

We are both having to assume. I am assuming the dragon and beast are one and the same based on scriptural similarities between the dragon and beast. I am also assuming there is only one Gog/Magog war based on Ezekiel 38-39 being about only 1 war. You are assuming the there are multiple times "the books are opened" and 2 Gog/Magog wars: Once before and Once after the 1000 years.

In order to support you assumption, can you provide scripture to support 2" the books are opened" events? Can you provide scripture to support 2 Gog/Magog wars?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Agreed
There is no text in revelation 20, that specifically states "the beast was cast into the LOF".

The greek, in a literal word for word interpretation, simply states the following in red:
Revelation 20:10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where also the beast and the false prophet

Both the dragon (satan) and the beast are red, both have 7 heads, and both have 10 horns. They are incredibly similar. The main difference would be the number of crowns: In revelation 12, the dragon as 7, in revelation 13, the beast has 10.

Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.

Revelation 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

Revelation 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

Very interesting post.
Did you notice that diadems is used in only 3 verses of Revelation while crown/crowns is used in 8 verses? What is the difference?

Revelation 12
1 And a great sign was seen in the heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown<4735> of twelve stars,
3 and was visioned another Sign in the heaven and behold! a Dragon great fiery having Heads seven and Horns ten and upon the Heads of him seven diadems<1238>
Revelation 13:1
And I was stood upon the sand of the Sea and I saw out of the Sea a Beast ascending having ten Horns and seven Heads and upon the Horns of it ten diadems<1238> and upon the heads of it name/*s of blasphemy.
Revelation 19:12
The yet eyes of Him *as flame of fire and upon the Head of Him many diadems<1238>, having a name having been written which no-one has seen except He.

4735. stephanos from an apparently primary stepho
(to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, 1238), literally or figuratively:--crown. [Used 18 times in NT, 4 times in Gospels, 6 times in Epistles, 8 times in Revelation.

1238. diadema from a compound of 1223 and 1210;
a "diadem" (as bound about the head):--crown. Compare 4735.

The closest I could come to the Hebrew word for diadem is #6797, which is placed on Joshua.

6797 tsaniyph tsaw-neef' or tsanowph {tsaw-nofe'}; or (feminine) tsaniyphah {tsaw-nee-faw'}; from 6801;
a head-dress (i.e. piece of cloth wrapped around):--diadem, hood, mitre.

Isa 62:3
And thou hast been a crown of beauty in the hand of Jehovah,
And a diadem of royalty in the hand of thy God,
Zec 3:
5 He also said, 'Let them set a pure diadem on his head.
And they set the pure diadem on his head, and clothe him with garments.
And the messenger of Jehovah is standing,
8 ‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
You and your companions who sit before you,

Then there is "turban"

4701 mitsnepheth mits-neh'-feth from 6801;
a tiara, i.e. official turban (of a king or high priest):--diadem, mitre.

Ezekiel 21:25 and thou profane wicked prince of Israel whose day of him comes in a time of iniquity of end
26 Thus He say my Lord Yahweh, remove! the Turban/04701 mitsnepheth and heave the crown<5850>
this not this, the low one to elevate and the lofty one to abase of.


.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[claninja]

Very interesting post.
Did you notice that diadems is used in only 3 verses of Revelation while crown/crowns is used in 8 verses? What is the difference?

this is a good point. stephanos almost seems to be an award for being victorious. Whereas, a diadema seems to be a crown that indicates royalty. Still, these words seem so very similar.

What really gets me curious is why the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns has 7 diadems in revelation 12 and the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns has 10 diadems? I suppose I should start another thread, as not to detract from this one.