How can any Christian vote for pro-abortion politicians?

[CatsRule2020]

It is the Democrats that fight for the objective moral values. They are not respected for this because those they fight for are the marginalized of society.

 

[John Helpher]

Not to mention the culture war that is raging and has been for some time. Democrats are on the opposite side of Evangelicals at every turn.

I don't think it is a culture war, (or at least, it should not be). This culture war thing really is a distraction. If you claim to be a Christian then then issue will be the teachings of Jesus; are you following them or not? Are others following them or not?

Abortion can be an important issue, but as others have suggested, it's not the only issue. The reason I referenced the "gain the world but sell your soul" quote from Jesus is because that is essentially what anti-abortion Christians are doing these days; they support Trump because he at least claims to be anti-abortion (though there's evidence to indicate that he supports whatever is necessary to garner votes), while at the same time he's an adulterer who brags about how rich he is, regularly lies, and near-constantly insults anyone who even slightly disagrees with or corrects him.

What does it profit to make progress in the area of abortion, but at the expense of supporting a lying, fear-mongering adulterer who brags about being able to get away with killing in the street and sexually assaulting women?

 

[FenderTL5]

Abortion isn't a choice; it's taking an innocent life. Abortion advocates like to fancy themselves as "pro-choice," but such a term is misleading. It wouldn't make sense if I were to say that stealing is wrong, but I would never interfere in other people's right to choose to steal, and therefore conclude that theft shouldn't be a crime.

Many verses in the Bible testify to the fact that there is life in the womb. One such verse is Luke 1:41: "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."

How can any Christian vote for politicians who support abortion? That goes against God's teaching in the Bible not to murder (Exodus 20:13).

Since the early 80s, the number of abortions has been in a steady decline.

Perhaps a better question could be; If Christians are so opposed to abortion, then why do Christians get the majority (70%) of them?

I tend to think that policies that work to mitigate the reasons one would choose an abortion are more effective at reducing them. We need to ensure that women have access to adequate healthcare, pre/post natal care and making child rearing less burdensome. Those are not being addressed by conservatives.

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

All murder is wrong, including acts of war. How is it the nations build killing machines? Should these be abolished too?

Trump is the first President in a very long time not to start a war as well.

Yet it makes many hate him even more.

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

I don't think it is a culture war, (or at least, it should not be). This culture war thing really is a distraction. If you claim to be a Christian then then issue will be the teachings of Jesus; are you following them or not? Are others following them or not?

Abortion can be an important issue, but as others have suggested, it's not the only issue. The reason I referenced the "gain the world but sell your soul" quote from Jesus is because that is essentially what anti-abortion Christians are doing these days; they support Trump because he at least claims to be anti-abortion (though there's evidence to indicate that he supports whatever is necessary to garner votes), while at the same time he's an adulterer who brags about how rich he is, regularly lies, and near-constantly insults anyone who even slightly disagrees with or corrects him.

What does it profit to make progress in the area of abortion, but at the expense of supporting a lying, fear-mongering adulterer who brags about being able to get away with killing in the street and sexually assaulting women?

Could a Christian vote for someone in Nazi Germany advocating the continuation of the Holocaust?

Of course not. This is why I think many Christians simply don't believe church doctrine regarding what abortion really is.

 

[John Helpher]

This is why I think many Christians simply don't believe church doctrine regarding what abortion really is.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this, but I am suggesting many Christians don't believe Jesus. Yes, abortion (in particular, how we treat life and also the kinds of behaviors that tend to cause people to seek abortion in the first place) can be an important issue, but if you're only able to make progress in this area by supporting a lying, hate-mongering adulterer then we must ask if doing so is right.

It's a bit like a terrorist holding a gun to your friend or family member's head and demanding that you deny Christ to save their life. You could save a life, sure, but at what cost?

 

[John Mullally]

He's using religion to promote a political agenda.

Are you a mind reader? Trump may actually believe that killing unborn children is murder.

And nobody gains the World by pleading for the lives of the unborn.

Trump is not a war hawk and has been nominated multiple times for the Nobel Peace Prize.

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

Since the early 80s, the number of abortions has been in a steady decline.

Perhaps a better question could be; If Christians are so opposed to abortion, then why do Christians get the majority (70%) of them?

I tend to think that policies that work to mitigate the reasons one would choose an abortion are more effective at reducing them. We need to ensure that women have access to adequate healthcare, pre/post natal care and making child rearing less burdensome. Those are not being addressed by conservatives.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this, but I am suggesting many Christians don't believe Jesus. Yes, abortion (in particular, how we treat life and also the kinds of behaviors that tend to cause people to seek abortion in the first place) can be an important issue, but if you're only able to make progress in this area by supporting a lying, hate-mongering adulterer then we must ask if doing so is right.

It's a bit like a terrorist holding a gun to your friend or family member's head and demanding that you deny Christ to save their life. You could save a life, sure, but at what cost?

My point is, I don't know of anyone who condones murder.

Not even the Nazi regime condoned it.

What is first needed is to devalue a human life first. This is the first step in genocide. Then the Jew becomes vermin, the non-Muslim becomes an infidel, and the unborn a fetus.

Once the population targeted for death is devalued in such a way as not your equal, can they be exterminated.

After all, what do we do to animals? Humans must first be devalued to the status of an animal so we can use them as beasts of burden, or even kill and eat them with a clear conscience.

It's all rationalized mental gymnastics, but necessary because we all, or most, have a conscience.

 

[CaspianSails]

I don't think it is a culture war, (or at least, it should not be). This culture war thing really is a distraction. If you claim to be a Christian then then issue will be the teachings of Jesus; are you following them or not? Are others following them or not?

Abortion can be an important issue, but as others have suggested, it's not the only issue. The reason I referenced the "gain the world but sell your soul" quote from Jesus is because that is essentially what anti-abortion Christians are doing these days; they support Trump because he at least claims to be anti-abortion (though there's evidence to indicate that he supports whatever is necessary to garner votes), while at the same time he's an adulterer who brags about how rich he is, regularly lies, and near-constantly insults anyone who even slightly disagrees with or corrects him.

What does it profit to make progress in the area of abortion, but at the expense of supporting a lying, fear-mongering adulterer who brags about being able to get away with killing in the street and sexually assaulting women?

I don't disagree. The culture of America for most of its history has been predominately close to the teachings of Christ. The last 70 years or so there has been a retreat, I will call it, from that long standing norm. I am much more concerned with what is happening within the Church in terms of living life than I am what is happening in the world. At times I don't see a difference and that is worrisome on many levels.

In terms of the lose your own soul. Cannot not one simply reverse the equation and come to the same conclusion? Is it better then to support a person who appears to be nice, kind yet promotes the murder of the unborn. Neither choice is a good choice unfortunately. One must decide what your first principles are I suppose and work from there. We elect presidents not church leaders. If civility is more important than life then that is your choice, I will not stand as a person who has done nothing to warrant the forgiveness and favor of the Almighty and condemn your decision.

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this, but I am suggesting many Christians don't believe Jesus. Yes, abortion (in particular, how we treat life and also the kinds of behaviors that tend to cause people to seek abortion in the first place) can be an important issue, but if you're only able to make progress in this area by supporting a lying, hate-mongering adulterer then we must ask if doing so is right.

It's a bit like a terrorist holding a gun to your friend or family member's head and demanding that you deny Christ to save their life. You could save a life, sure, but at what cost?

So do you believe abortion is murder? If so, would you vote for a lying adulterer to try and stop it or vote for a lying adulterer who will continue it?

 

[CaspianSails]

I am a Christian and identify as a Democrat.

As a Christian, one who is made righteous not due to any action or worth, I do not condemn your choice nor the process which you use to determine what looms large in your life and in your faith. Christ, as far as I know is neither a Democrat nor a Republican. We are all sinners, some saved only by the grace and undeserved merit of God. We all have failings. Vote and support your conscience. I only wrote that abortion looms large as an issue, I never said it was the only issue. It is for some, not for others.

 

[CaspianSails]

So do you believe abortion is murder? If so, would you vote for a lying adulterer to try and stop it or vote for a lying adulterer who will continue it?

Absolutely I do believe it is murder. The choice as you state it is what it is and put plainly and truthfully.

 

[John Helpher]

If so, would you vote for a lying adulterer to try and stop it or vote for a lying adulterer who will continue it?

I would not support either one. There are more than just two choices. If you mean that there are only two serious choices, then I would suggest that is exactly the problem. Choose the least worst leader is a horrible position into which we've put ourselves precisely because we continue to believe that there are only two options.

Even if it seems useless, it is better to vote for the losing (yet righteous candidate) than settling for the least worst of an unrighteous lot. Even if that means you must wright a name on the ballot, or perhaps even not vote (assuming there are no suitable candidates on the ballot) then that is still better than voting for someone you know is corrupt just because he's slightly less corrupt than the other guy.

 

[John Mullally]

but if you're only able to make progress in this area by supporting a lying, hate-mongering adulterer then we must ask if doing so is right.

God for Christ sake has forgiven our sins. The adultery and locker room talk is 15 years in the past. The rough talk is basically return fire on those taking pot shots (bias and fake news) at him - not expecting people to like his style. I admire him for his tenacity and I agree with his policies - protecting the unborn, helping the economy (improving job opportunities while reducing Government give-aways), standing up to an aggressor (Iran), getting us out of unnecessary wars, successful advocation of peace treaties in the middle east, supporting our troops and police, and resisting lawlessness on our streets and at the borders.

 

[tulc]

That is not the question and you know it.

The question was:

How can any Christian vote for pro-abortion politicians?

and I answered that question. Now that some people might not agree with that particular answer, still, it does answer the question.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

 

[John Helpher]

In terms of the lose your own soul. Cannot not one simply reverse the equation and come to the same conclusion?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. The original though is, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his soul"?

By reversing it, do you mean something like, "What does it profit a man to save his soul, but lose the whole world"?

If that is what you mean, then I would answer with a definitive no, as those are two completely opposing concepts. Think about it this way; let's pretend, hypothetically, that a terrorist has a button which can kill every human on earth. He explains that if you will only acknowledge that Jesus does not have complete authority over the earth, that he himself will not save these people, then, if you do that, he will not press the button and you will save all those people from dying. Would you believe that to be a reasonable bargain?

You could even rationalize that god might reward you for saving all those lives. After all, we're called on to lay our lives down for others. We're called on to love them and go the extra mile for them. All you have to do is say that Jesus doesn't have the power to save them.

Jesus' comment about gaining the world and losing your soul deals with exactly this issue. Your integrity, your personal relationship with God, your loyalty and faithfulness to goodness is more important than the whole world and everything in it.

Yes, it would be sad to see the whole world killed, but that is not your responsibility. You are first and foremost responsible for the choices you make. That is precisely what makes choice and integrity so valuable; no one can ever snatch it away from you. They may kill you, your friends, your family, or even the whole world, but your integrity is something they can never touch, unless you allow them to.

This is what we must consider even in a situation like abortion. "Hey, I'll save millions of babies; all you have to do is tolerate my hatred, my fear-mongering, my greed, and my bitterness". NO WAY! Nothing is worth selling your soul for.

 

[John Helpher]

The adultery and locker room talk is 15 years in the past.

Remember Peter's rebuke in his letter to the church? He said that, to God, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand year is like a day. God doesn't interpret time in the same way we do. We humans have conveniently short memories when it comes to accountability but God does not. We're quick to forget our problems, but God remembers. Yes, forgiveness is available, but certainly referring to bragging about sexual assault as "locker room talk" does not demonstrate the kind of remorse which would indicate a desire for forgiveness.

It is, in fact, a justification. I mean, do you talk that way? Does your pastor talk that way? Does your son, or father, or brothers, or uncles, or friends brag about grabbing women's genitals just because they've got enough power and money to get away with it? Why do you keep legitimizing this behavior?

As for the adultery, I understand that we should not be haunted by our past. If we've repented and sincerely asked for forgiveness, we should be able to move on, and yet, even then, that same sincerity should cause us to always consider the issue soberly.

Trump has done the opposite of that; he's bragged that he has nothing to be forgiven for and consistently denied he did anything wrong. Even you, an obvious supporter, don't deny it, yet Trump does. I don't think that impresses God at all. I think the opposite is true, and as long as you continue to make excuses for him, you are complicit with him.

 

[John Mullally]

I think the opposite is true, and as long as you continue to make excuses for him, you are complicit with him.

I am not responsible for the personal failures of the people I vote for. You are the one who should worry about Complicit.

 

[Swag365]

Abortion isn't a choice; it's taking an innocent life. Abortion advocates like to fancy themselves as "pro-choice," but such a term is misleading. It wouldn't make sense if I were to say that stealing is wrong, but I would never interfere in other people's right to choose to steal, and therefore conclude that theft shouldn't be a crime.

Many verses in the Bible testify to the fact that there is life in the womb. One such verse is Luke 1:41: "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."

How can any Christian vote for politicians who support abortion? That goes against God's teaching in the Bible not to murder (Exodus 20:13).

Trump is pro-abortion, in the case of incest, and rape. If you vote for him you are voting for a pro-abortion politician.

 

[John Helpher]

I am not responsible for the personal failures of the people I vote for.

On the one hand, you want to justify Trump's immorality (i.e. locker-room talk), but on the other hand you say that you are not responsible for it even if you do give him your vote of approval. This is a contradiction which needs an explanation. The truth is that you like Trump (as you made clear in your previous post), but you're still trying to maintain a veneer of respectability.

The first response is to legitimize his immorality with a litany of vague justifications (it was a long time ago, locker-room talk etc). These are very flimsy excuses so when they are inevitably shredded, you try a new angle; distance, (i.e. Hey, I'm not responsible for him, I'm only voting for him!).

But this also is a flimsy excuse which is easily shredded. Votes equal power. When you give your vote to a leader, you are demonstrating that you agree with that person's goals and values; you want that person to represent you. It is irrational to say, "Yeah, I voted for him, but he does not represent me".